Descent - Hold off - Flare

[Teroc]

Hi,
I posted this on another forum and was advised to post it here.
Im new to this so forgive me if my questions been answered a million times. At the moment im studying for my PPL and have 14 hours clocked up..a mere chick in the flight
world !! :-). Im hitting the circuit and the moment doing touch and go's and am having terrible trouble judging the Descent/hold off and Flare..i feel i'll never get it. Can any of you people help at all ?
Again my apologies if this sounds really basic.
Thanks for any help you give...

[Grandad Flyer]

What aircraft are you flying and maybe me or someone with probably vast experience on type compared to me, can give you some pointers. But...one good tip I was told was to spend a bit of time sitting in the cockpit, getting a feel for a)how high you are off the ground and b) the attitude (ie. how does the nose look against the ground/ horizon). This is how it should look when you touch down. Also, when you get on short final, well nearly over the threshold really, ALWAYS look down the end of the runway. If you look into the distance this will help. Don't look at the numbers or the runway, or the grass! Other than that, without knowing which aircraft you are flying, practice, practice, practice!! Also remember a good landing starts with a good approach. If you spend your base leg turn, base leg and turn onto finals trying to get your RPM within 25 of what it should be, or trying to fly by exact altitudes, you WILL cock it up. I flew with someone once, who had the same problems as you. He was convinced he was looking at the runway throughout the base and final turn. So on his next circuit as he turned base and reduced power I covered all his instruments, other than ASI with a map. He couldn't believe it and after the initial shock, flew about 200 times better than before. Go on then all you official instructors, shout me down!!!

[capt beeky]

Gramps
I think you put it very well. I can't think of any serious addition to yours. To make a dig at myself, I had a student once upon a time with the same problem. Suddenly he got better. Sometime later I found out that he had improved by watching me as we approached the flare. When my right hand twitched, it was time to flare.
Keep at it Teroc, it will come. As grandad said, it would help to know the type you fly and perhaps the base, so many have their own procedures that we shouldn't contradict.

[pilotbear]

Make sure the approach is good. Be relaxed on the aproach with the correct airspeeds. That is the key to good landings
Practice flying the runway at 15-20 ft looking ahead (along the side of the nose not over it) Not down at the ground.
Get the general feel for where you are.
I dont know if you drive a car but think about where you look when you do. Into the distance not at the road 10 ft ahead (or maybe you do)

I always think of flaring as trying to keep the aircraft flying until it wants to land. Don't try to land it! let the the speed just decay naturally. All you are doing by flaring is slowing down the decsent and then keeping the aircraft flying while it slows down.

When you flare don't expect to land immediately, halt the descent and let the aircraft fly the runway until it wants to land. (Providing your airspeed is correct - good approach)
The slower you fly the higher nose up (angle of attack) attitude you need for the same lift therefore the more gentle backwards movement of the Yoke.
Also remember that at slower speeds bigger control movements are needed (still smooth though).
Ideally on the point of touchdown in a C152 you will have the yoke right back into your stomach.
This doesn't mean that the nose will be pointing skywards it is that as you are going so slowly you need a lot more elevator deflection to fly straight and level.
If you let everything happen gently it will land itself.

Everyone (except superman) takes time to get the hang of landings. Even now if the approach is rushed the landing is crap.
Don't let your instructor bully you into doing something you sure not sure of.
Get him/her to explain why you are doing things not just show you how
Keep asking until you understand.

hope this helps, but you will develop your own individual style
good luck
Pilotbear

[Checkboard]

You might try here as well:

http://studentpilot.com/learningtofly/index.html

[Teroc]

Thanks for all your help folks. Much appreciated. Im flying a Cessna 150 and the circuit is 800 ft..usually left hand for an 800 metre west facing runway (rnwy 25).

Thanks again

[skyvan]

As silly as this may seem, Teroc, I fly Boeing 737 as a co-pilot, and the advise you have been given is as accurate for a small jet, as for a C150 or any of the training aircraft. When I have a problem with landings, I revert back to basics, and those are....fly a stable, comfortable approach, at the flare, shift your vision down the runway, and when the end of the runway is about shoulder height, the main gear should be about to touch the runway, hopefully in a smooth and controlled way.
Good luck, and don't worry, the landings will come.

[Teroc]

Thank you all for your help. I was up this morning for an hour or so and used all the tips you gave me....i did 5 touch and go's and 3 of which were really smooth..for the first time ever my rear end isnt bruised.. :-) ..i "Juggled" the power and pitch all the way down to my aiming point in and around 75 kts and basically shifted my eyes to the runway end just at the flare stage and this really helped....the other two werent as good but this was due to a nasty little crosswind just above the threshold which blew me off the centreline so by the time i got the wings level and centred again i was hitting the runway pretty hard... any tips here for when your wings get tipped over just as your about to land ?... do you just leave it be and land skewed or try and fight it back ?
Again thank you all for your wonderful tips.
Perhaps some day these bad landings will be the exception. :-)

Thank you...
Teroc

[New Bloke]

terok,

In 1982 when I was doing my PPL (just threw that in so you know I am an old git) I had exactly the same problem. My instructor, a great bloke called Don Walker (RIP) told me to look out of the side window to help judge my height and it worked. After a few landings it came naturally and I no longer needed to do that.
A instructor recently told me he teaches 150 students to hold the nose level with the far end of the runway, it makes for functional rather than greased landing, but is consistent.

[Grandad Flyer]

Teroc, glad to hear PPRUNEers have been of some use! Cross winds are tricky, needs lots of practice. However, as my instructor once said, you must keep flying the aircraft right down to the touchdown. Smaller adjustments nearer the ground, but don't just sit there and let it happen. Another "small aircraft" tip for someone with your experience - if you have a crosswind, say from the left, and it is reasonably strong, line yourself up with the left side of the runway and as you are about to touch down you will find you have drifted onto the centreline! Of course, with a bit of practice, you won't need to do this, but it is good advice. If you have cross runways where you are training, pick a windy day and ask your instructor if you can have a session on the crosswind runway, and just keep going until you are happier with it. There are different methods taught for landing in cross winds, best for your instructor to show you a couple of options and you can choose what feels right for you. Good luck and congratulations on those "greasers"!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Having sent his first two students solo today I can recommend the following advice. Wear sun screen. Apart from that:

1, look at the far far end of the runway from about 50ft down.

2, take a deep breath at 300ft.

3, try not to get all twitchy on the controls below 500ft - hold them steady and suddenly all that turbulence dissapears...

4, sing, whistle or hum ' I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles' all the way around your first solo circuit.

5, smile in the cockpit every 30 seconds.

Happy landings - WWW

[KingAir]

One thing that is left out the most when training a student to fly/land is whether the student's seat is properly adjusted. I have found that insuring that the seat is at the right height corrects most of the problems during the flare. Adjust the seat so that you can see the top of the engine cowling and almost see the spinner. At this height, you can very well see the end of the runway during flare thus eliminating a touchdown on all three wheels because you can now pitch the a/c to a nose up attitude without losing sight of the end of the runway. Regards.

[New Bloke]

WWW regarding item 4. Sorry mate, the song is "Once I get you up here, where the air is rareified, de dum dum do be do"

At least it was for me.

[pilotbear]

Regarding crosswind landings,and this may be a bit advanced, I find it easier to land on one wheel first(the one into wind obviously, and not the nose wheel either although I'm sure we have all done that at some point).


You could get your instructor to show you this technique sometime.

pilotbear

[GrandpaCharles]

Just been browsing through this thread, all this information is good solid stuff, not to sure about the looking out to the side bit, but all in all, good information. Bits you really need to take notice of are: a good approach leads to a good landing. Look down the runway. You may try lifting your line of vision in three stages over about 300 mt or so at a time, this will make the transition from the threshold to the other end easer. Speed! Speed! Speed! To often students/cadets (whatever) suffer learning difficulties due to trying to land to fast. The plane will not land until has reached the correct speed. If the aircraft is 5 or 10 kts to fast at the threshold, (Vref +10) the plane will float along until the speed decays to the correct speed and then sink on. This causes anxiety and an urge for the pilot to push the plane onto the runway, hence the bounce and nose wheel problems (as discussed in another thread). The speed is all to do with the best L : D. If you are to fast, (above the best L : D) the plane will find it easer to fly as the speed decays, meaning that it doesn't want to settle on. Check the pilots operating handbook speed for a normal landing in any aircraft you fly, it's a good place to start. As for the crosswind landings, that's another story, and should be treated as such!

Have FUN!

GC


[This message has been edited by GrandpaCharles (edited 18 May 1999).]

[GrandpaCharles]

Whoops!!

[This message has been edited by GrandpaCharles (edited 18 May 1999).]