JOB MARKET

[capt beeky]

It's sad to see a usefull forum underused like this,

West Michigan have decided to train PPL instructors up to 509/682 level. Pay is as advertised in Flight - $50/55K but with a relocation allowance and you get to become a Professor. Its tax free as well.

BAes will be recruiting soon for Jerez de la Frontera. Aprox 40 nm north of Gibralter, cheap living costs and it really does have good weather. If I was still instructing full time this would be a place I would consider. Don't know yet on the pay.

Oxford are recruiting still. All the new contract instructors have long faces as they still haven't scrapped the famous 'Oxford Bonus' - work for a few months and you owe CSE money. I heard from my pal that the manager has changed and they are trying to fix it. At the moment though they have to break the company order book to make the money offered at interview - if you bend a plane due to fatigue it will be interesting - A few are doing 6/7 day weeks, 14hrs+ a day. Typically they earn £5K less than promised

SFT pays well for instructors, my old IR inst still works there from choice and it seemed a 'happy ship' when I was there.

All these schools will have to take in PPL instructors soon if they don't already. The supply of ex military has dried out and demand is increasing. If your a QFI give it a try. I enjoyed it. But don't jump straight at the first offer, you can afford a bit of window shopping.

Most PPL schools are short of instructors. I've only met one person doing the exams/GFT who wants to become one. It used to be that everyone was en-route to slave labour. With the shortage pay scales have gone up and crusty club owners are now paying retainers for the first time. Its an Instructers market out there. Don't sell yourselves short. The cadet schools are probably going to be feeling the pinch. Join BALPA or if your near Oxford they have an Instructors Union though it seems to be treated like the instructors themselves. Don't know if Cabair/BAes/SFT et al have similar organisations.

Hope this thred starts something.

Looking through the canopy you will see the horison cuts........

[pilotbear]

Hi capn beaky,

let me continue your thread.

I am in the process of training (at my own ridiculous expense) to be a PPL instructor.
I have 190hrs +IMC +night and am starting the Commercial writtens at Bonus Aviation at Cranfield next week.

I have no real ambition to take things any further except more training qualifications.

I am 38 and I teach guitar and music so teaching is very rewarding to me. I have my own ideas about making the learning process easier and more fun

I know that the money is not good at the moment, (I get £15.00/hr for teaching guitar) but I am optimistic it will change with the ever-growing shortage of instructors.

I will have my AFI by November (just in time for the English bad Weather).

If anybody wants a dedicated career instructor let me know

[Luke SkyToddler]

55 thou for an instructor! Times must be tough at WMU! How does that compare with UK pay rates? And do you need a green card?

[capt beeky]

Luke, rember 55K is in dollars. It is also twin IR instruction which is the upper end of the instructor salary range. In the UK the same job pulls in:
SFT £25K+good bonus/profit sharing.
Oxford £25K+bad bonus.

Pilotbear, Sadly these figures arn't for you. In the past an AFI (sorry its now FI(A)R)sat around all day, washed the owners car, flew a few trial lessons and then took home £4/5 flying pay in total. £Aprox 2/4K a year. Not much better for QFI's.

Things are getting better. Enlightened clubs/owners pay a retainer - £2/15K plus flying pay £4/15 per hour. The really good outfits will give you this for supervising solo. I wouldn't fly for anyone that doesn't do this, after all they charge the training rate, you have to do the work so they ought to pay you. Also your licence is on the line.

Avoid flying for an outfit in the middle of Wales with only one runway. Unless you like being shouted at for not flying VMC exercises in IMC. Pay is bad as well.

PPL instructors should start a league table so it becomes known who it is worth working for. It would also get the hyenas into order.

[capt beeky]

Luke, forgot to say you get a JI visa. The right person - me- gets a HIB leading to a green card. Sad I decided not to go. It sounds a good set up. You even get to fly an Extra 300! (They will do your conversion).
You need experience and GOOD technique (think CFS not 'Makum Me Rich Flying Club')

If your reading this Martyn, you owe me a pint.

Pilotbear. I like your optimism. Good luck with the exams, the GFT and the AFI test. Give up your social life and keep hitting the books. ATA at Coventry is best in my view as a crammer (I know that some Oxford commercial flying instructors recomend it to their struggling students, especially the weekend brush ups). The instructors give out their home phone numbers for you to ring in evenings and weekends to answer your questions. They teach what you need for the exams first and foremost, with just enough of the bull*****to keep Cash Again and Again happy.

[cyclops]

Luke, a little addition to Beekie's info; the J1 visa is only good for three years and you cannot return for another 2 years.

Inome tax is not payable for the first 2 years. The UK tax people don't like this so it all gets paid in the third year. WMU have just issued a bonus in the third year which will go some way to paying this.

I think that you are from Godzone and if I recollect your tax bods are worse than the UK lot. Therefore I would suggest not informing them that you are working at all - just on permanent holiday once you are overseas.

[Luke SkyToddler]

's no worries ... I don't really think they would be interested in a kiwi coming to the USA to teach the UK syllabus to people anyway ... and as you say I think I would have a fairly interesting situation vis-a-vis the tax man.

Hey what do you have to do to get approved to teach 509? Do they have special requirements? Is it a special course you do, or rating on your licence or what?

[Whiskey Hotel Delta]

That all sounds kinda nice, to me. To anyone who might care to respond to this rather naive little wing flapper, I would be most appreciative.

I've been instructing in Oz for just over ten years, got around 4,000 hours of it, including about 1,000 multi/IFR, (Oz) ATPL and a Bachelor's Degree in Aviation. I love the game, and am starting to look further afield, than our fair waters. However, I am a little concerned about reports I have heard from the US and the UK, via some chaps I know, who have experienced the scene (vis ERAU and OATS and PPSC, specifically).

Obviously a licence conversion is the start, but how does one continue and find employment with reputable organisations, arrange the necessary visas, etc. Is there a likelihood of financial assistance with the cost of licence conversion? Many questions, too little space.

Wages for me are pretty good at the moment (circa $41K) so it is ludicrous to contemplate anything less overseas, especially with the associated relocation and conversion costs. The wages you mention, Capt Beeky, are more up my ally - very different from other reports I've heard.

Any suggestions graciously received....

Cheers!

[capt beeky]

Luke and WHD,
You apply,you then get asked. After that survive 4+ weeks in standards probably without pay (minimum) relearning stuff some of which you probably never knew/taught (in the realworld). After that pass the acceptance rides, GH, multi, IR,Spin/Aero. 6 months or so probation and then your in. You may get in teaching the basic stuff and get upgraded later. Most of the schools have screwed down pay - leading to unhappy pilots. The big one pays its new guys the same now as they did 10 years ago. 0% inflation hey. Shop around, the market is fluid and a LOT of the established guys are leaving soon if the pay/bonus issues don't get sorted out. Generally if your good enough to get in then your good enough to go to jets/turbo's and a better career and longer term stability.

The really big outfits treat their instructors badly - you are just a small faceless cog. Talk to the guys at Oxford, Prestwick,Cranfield. Ive noticed they are always grumping about something over cofee. They can be found remoted to various small airfields as their main bases are bursting at the seams.

Its a lot better paid, the flying was fun when I did it but when the slump comes in 1/2/3 yrs......

[Medousa]

I'm interested in the flying instructor vacancies at West Michigan, and I sent them an E-mail a week or so ago, to which they have yet to reply.

Does anyone know if the positions are permanent, or fixed term contract, if so how long?

What relocation package is available?

Are there opportunities for promotion onto a salary greater than $56,000?

When do they want successful applicants to start?

And just how far does $50,000 go in the USA? I know that Oxford offer their basic instructors £20,000 plus £30 per hour for each hour flown over 400 per year. An average science or engineering graduate with 2 years post graduate work experience could expect to earn a similar salary in the Oxford area. Yet a science graduate friend of mine who has worked in Detroit for two years earns $70,000.

[Grandad Flyer]

Slightly unrelated I know, but with the US theme, thought I might find some knowledge lurking out there!
Does anyone know the minimum requirements to get a big jet job with one of the majors in the USA? Minimum hours, do you still need a degree, can the min hours go by the wayside if you have sufficient big jet time and so on. If anyone knows the answer I'll tell you a good trick!

[Meeb]

Hmm, a little bit of fun going on in here!
Capt Beeky, I can assure you no matter what WMU may say they will normally only offer you the J1 visa. Anyway, why would you want a H1B visa, you have to pay tax from day one, and the green card thing is a complete red herring. You must wait at least 6 years before even being allowed to apply, even then you must satisfy the IRS that you are a sound person to be allowed to stay for good, believe me, if you stayed that long in Michigan you should be sectioned, not citizened! To say they will take PPL instructors is putting it a bit too simply. They will train instructors up to 509 level, but you have to have a lot of experience as an instructor (1000hrs+), or airline training experience. Also, you will only be on single engine for up to a year before they train you for your multi instructor ticket. The Extra is a carrot, forget getting to fly it!

[Meeb]

Oops again

[This message has been edited by Meeb (edited 07 May 1999).]

[Meeb]

Sorry about this!

[This message has been edited by Meeb (edited 07 May 1999).]

[Meeb]

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[This message has been edited by Charlie Foxtrot India (edited 08 May 1999).]