Moving from instructing into charter in Oz

[CLK]

Just a question to those who may have attempted to migrate to the charter industry.
After numerous attempts recently I have found it quite difficult to "break" into charter with some employers even failing to count any of my instructing time.
For the record I have over 1000 hours, ME CIR and no more than two thirds of my total is instructional experience.
It would be good to here from anyone who has successfully or unsucessfully migrated.
Has any other instructors out there had a similar experience?

[redsnail]

This is only my perspective on your question.
I have only 30 hours instructing, the rest of my time is charter/aerial work/RPT stuff. Many instructors that we saw had an "attitude problem". ie they were so used to the students doing the preflights and flight plans that they had become lazy. Also, they didn't really like the idea of washing the planes and doing the maintenance too. Many instructors own handling skills get neglected because they are not actually manipulating the controls.
Now I do not know what types you have flown, so if you get offended at the next couple of sentences, I do apologise. To a chief pilot in the bush or where ever, if they see 500 hours on a C152, they are not overly impressed. It means stuff all in the charter world. Even hours in a Duchess, big deal. A C210 has only 60 hp less...One Chief pilot said to me, he basicly ignored any time on 4 seaters or less unless they went somewhere interesting, ie Birdsville etc.
One point worth noting, if you have any twin training approvals and stuff, they are useful to the charter guys...but you still need the experience to back it.
So, with regards to the charter world, think about where you are looking and at what kind of job. If you are looking at a flash twin turbine job with those hours...hmmm try again. Now, most twin jobs = 1000 hours with 500 hours on twins. The reality is usually more like 2000 hours + and at least 500 hours on twins.
This may have sounded a bit harsh and a bit disparaging to your hours but that is the reality.

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reddo
Life is good 'till the next stuff up.

[Bendo]

I got into CHTR/Corporate ops with 800TT and 30 hours total multi. Luckiest SOB I know! I had the usual other stuff - right contacts, right place, right time. The jobs ARE there.

I was lucky that the company I work for had no experience with aircraft and took the first pilot they saw. Email me for more info!

Reddo is right in many of her points about instructing being a slightly limited career path when it comes to GA progression. One would-be Chieftain driver with a local company had about 2000 hours instructional time from Bankstown, including META. On his first "Black hole" approach into Coonabarrabran he lost it completely - all his night flying had been in Sydney with lots of pretty lights, not in mountains with clouds and stuff all to steer by.

He put the Autopilot on, walked back through the 4 passengers to the dead-legging pilot at the back, and said "Take over, I've got the leans".

He flies for RFDS now, but anyway....

Where are you based? Are you just another face in the Bankstown crowd? I know some bush operators are giving PJE experience an approving nod, so surely instruction counts for something!!!!!

[CLK]

Redsnail and Bendo, thank for your replies much appreciated.

p.s Bendo I'll drop you a line shortly.

[apache]

CLK...try getting a local operator to let you do some ICUS.(You may have to pay for this) but it is a good way to start getting to know the operators...and vice versa.
Prove to them that you are a good and professional pilot, and you never know where it may end up!
Redsnail and Bendo are right about instructing hours not being worth much(unless you have m/e T/A), infact some regionals take instructing hours off your total....and then say you don't meet minimums!
They are also right about needing basically 500 m/e command ... although hard to get, they put you so far ahead of every other instructor when it comes to the job market.

BUT do not fly an aircraft that is unsafe!!!!I know of one bloke was getting free icus on an AEROSTAR.....told the company he would never jump in one of their aircraft ever again....even if they paid him!!

Sorry...I've rabbited on for long enough...good luck!

[PapaSmurf]

Okay, against my better judgment I'm taking the bait on this one - as it is a subject close to my heart.

I instruct. I also do charter (not as much as I'd like to, but the opportunity does arise on occasion). Either way, I'm flying. Whether I'm occupying the RH seat as an Instructor, or the LH seat on a charter flight, I'm still pilot in command of the airplane, and I don't see that one type of flying is any less important in my log book than the other. As such, I take exception to the attitude held by some that instructing doesn't count.

When instructing, you are working in a multi-crew environment, honing vital communication and interaction skills that you don't get in single pilot charter ops. If you happen to have multi-engine training approval and teach IFR, you are constantly dealing with engine-out scenarios and any number of simulated failures and other "what-if" scenarios that wouldn't normally occur in charter ops either. In my corner of the world, much of this flying is done in genuine IMC, rather than the 8 oktas of blue sky enjoyed for a good part of the year elsewhere. In short, I believe my instructing experience actually complements my charter experience, not works against it. So all I'm saying here is that diversity is the key. If you work for a company that is involved in flight training, but also has regular charter ops - you have the best of both worlds. Flying is flying. If we're all professional pilots here, instead of bagging our respective job descriptions, why not look for some good points that a diversity of flying experience brings instead.

[apache]

PAPASMURF.....without "bagging" instructing, in OZ instructors are not highly regarded....in fact, some companies will not employ you if you have too many instructing hours.
Whilst I agree that instructing is a most valuable asset to have in ones logbook, charter pilots do get the better pay/better jobs!
CLK has the right idea in trying to move on to charter/"bank-runs" and it is the natural progression for experience!

[tealady]

In the last 4 months, 4 ex students at the school I am with have made it into the airlines, 2 with Kendells and 2 with QF and one going through the final interview with QF.
Student no 1: 26 y.o. Flying for 10 years, CPL, ME CIR, outback charter, Pearl Aviation,
Kendells- FO SAAB 340 - total time, 3000hrs, no uni degree
Student no 2: 26 y.o. Flying for 10 years,
CPL, ME CIR, Gr1 Instructor (2000hrs- no ME
training approval) Outback charter, 1000hrs turbo-prop, total time, 4500hrs - straight to QF International -no uni degree
Student no 3: 24 y.o. Flying for 5 years,
Gr1 Instructor, ME CIR, 1500 hrs Instructing,
1000hrs turbo prop - no uni degree- FO on Metros
Student no 4: 27 y.o.Flying for 4 years, CPL, ME CIR, Flying up north, total time 2500hrs - no uni degree - has uncle flying for QF and just joined student no 2.
Student in limbo - 29 yo - flying for 7 yrs. Gr 2 Instructor, Flying up north and night freight down south - total time about 3000hrs
So there you have it- any combination is possible, you just need the right attitude, good contacts, and thorough basic training in surviving the first five years - after that the competition drops off markedly and you're on your way. If you're not where you want to be or got the foot on the right rung after 10 years - then give it away.

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tealady

[This message has been edited by tealady (edited 09 January 2000).]

[PistonTwin]

CLK,

I managed to move from instructing to charter 7 months ago. At the time I had 850 total time with 150 twin. I had been doing some parachute dropping in an Islander but the majority of my time was instructional.

I have experienced the kind of reception that others here speak of. Many operators don't regard instructional time too highly. I guess that is from their previous experience and you have very little hope of persuading them to change their mind (I don't think I would try).

I have flown a few co-pilot hours with my new company and some of the approaches that the 'experienced' guys fly are appauling. Most of the strips we fly into are at least 2 kilometres long and fully sealed. We share the circuit with 737's and 146's. Despite this, these guys fly a banana shaped approach by dropping the nose, getting frightfully low and then dumping the thing on the runway lights at the approach end (we fly chieftains). These guys have many many charter hours but no instructional time.

I am not suggesting that all instructors fly perfect approaches, but I feel that instructional experience polishes up your flying skills greatly. I don't think these guys have flown constant approaches since their CPL tests.

It sounds very cliched, but you simply have to keep at it. I moved from single engine PPL/CPL instruction to multi IFR charter whilst living interstate. I knew no one within the company and simply managed to ring them at the right time. One of their employees was waiting for a Qantas start date and so I was in luck.

Another point that I think is very important is that you must realise that when you ring to speak to the Chief Pilot or owner, it will be completely obvious to the person on the other end that you are after a job. Whatever you do, don't act cagey, be honest. Tell them who you are, what experience you have and ask whether or not you may send a resume up for their file. Don't expect any miracles during the first phone call.

Assuming you send a resume, give them a couple of weeks before ringing to check they received it in the post. Don't be pushy and try not to take up much of their time. They are usually very busy and won't want to have a long drawn out conversation. We never put the Chief Pilot on the phone whether she is there or not. Furthermore, if our CP answers the phone, she won't tell you who she is. The moral of the story? Be careful, you don't know who you are speaking to.

One last point that is a pet hate of mine. Attention to detail. Take some time to ask who the CV should be addressed to. Confirm the spelling of names etc. Confirm the address. I have a killer surname and it rubs me up the wrong way when someone doesn't take the time to spell it correctly. One of the resumes we received recently was addressed to the "Flight Operations Department". We are a charter organisation!! You can imagine where this resume ended up.

Best of luck, it can be done!

[CLK]

Thanks to all who replied,much appreciated.
Cheers :)

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Yes, do the research....
Resumes addressed to "Dear Sir" don't get very far with me. I even had one the other day that said he wanted to do all sorts of training with us that we don't even do.
And the old chestnut, if you want to see the CP MAKE AN APPOINTMENT!

Good luck.

[PapaSmurf]

Piston Twin, I think you're right on the money with some of your remarks. Likewise Apache, I don't discount your comments either. If there are some operators out there who will always think that instructing time counts for zilch - so be it. I've got better things to do than go on a crusade, trying to convert everyone's attitudes. It is my own attitude which will determine my success in this industry, not others. However, I will say this for instructing: When you are charged with the responsibility of teaching someone else to safely pilot an airplane, you must be on your best behaviour at all times - as any bad habits you demonstrate are certainly bound to be picked up by your student. As such, I know more Instructors who focus on precision flying techniques than charter pilots (who sometimes tend to get a bit lazy in certain aspects of their flying). And that's not to say they're bad pilots either; they just focus on other aspects of their operation, and sometimes exactness isn't at the top of their priority list.

Okay, I know my previous comment is a generalisation. There are good and bad instructors, just as there are good and bad charter pilots. The final cut is based on the individual's attitude towards their profession and how hard they are prepared to push themselves to be the best they can be. If you've got what it takes, you'll eventually get the job you want. If you don't, well it won't make one iota of difference how many hours or endorsements you've got.

[Thermal Bandit]

There are several old sayings that one can apply when getting that next job, except the airlines in theory.

It's not what you know but who you know.

and

Being at the right place at the right time.

Instructing at Bankstown has in the past been refered to as the QANTAS waiting room in some circles. It may still be, and not held in high regard by some in the bush.

These days I know more people are heading out, looking for work in the north and west. If you make the move and find yourself refueling or sweeping the hanger floor, do it well. People are watching, and will gauge your potential as a pilot with their company from the way you are conducting yourself.

This brings us back to the first point - being known and being in the right place at the right time.

Good Luck

[This message has been edited by Thermal Bandit (edited 16 January 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Thermal Bandit (edited 16 January 2000).]

[Turbine]

:)

[This message has been edited by Turbine (edited 19 January 2000).]

[Bendo]

Hey Turbine, old Buddy, :rolleyes:

I love my instructing too - And there have been some very good points made by Papa Smurf and others regarding the polish that Instructing can put on your flying. Reddo and myself just echoed the points CLK made him/herself, and commented that these are the opinions we have seen in the industry.

I have recently returned on an occasional fill-in basis to my previous employer as instructor after 14 months running Chieftains around the joint - I have seen FIRST HAND how some of my sloppier habits have been imitated by the students! It makes you smarten up real quick.

... and I will be flying the Chiefy again as soon as the Fuel nightmare is resolved...

Turbine, you are as guilty of making generalisations as anyone else here. I have come accross some great instructor types from BK - Apache is one- but by far the majority are stuck-up unfriendly little prat Grade 3s with an attitude problem. What used to be referred to in Kununurra as the "Rayban and Mobile Phone set".

Bush pilots have a very sloppy attitude to their flying, are not disciplined on the radio, don't fly within tolerance and cannot handle particularly high workloads.

Aside from whatever offence might be taken by myself, Col Pay, Yanda pilots or country Connection pilots to this remark, you are showing a complete ignorance of what Charter is about in the non-metropolitan area. It isn't about getting from East Bumjack to Woop Woop... it is usually about getting from the country to a capital city in a hurry. Capital City control zones are every day occurrences as are flights at night or in IMC to completely foreign destinations. Control procedures are a snack - don't tell me they make you a better instructor!

You are 15 minutes away from terrain 4500 feet high.... so?

2 minutes away from the Ocean....and? (only straight through SY CTR...but never mind...)

and 10 minutes away from country not that much different to anywhere else south of FNQ....I'd like to see that!!!

What is your point!!??

I am 4 mins from terrain 4500' high, 3 mins from the pub and 10 minutes from a nervous breakdown! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

I don't want to take anything away from GAAP instructors, but their experience is different, not necessarily better

Does the stunning list of qualifications at the start of your post hold as much water as your argument? (WHAT Argument???)

Oh, and by the way I'm a Chief Pilot of a ME CHTR organisation too... CASA hand 'em out on Weeties boxes, mate!

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[This message has been edited by Bendo (edited 19 January 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Bendo (edited 19 January 2000).]

[Turbine]

Bottom line is this. Send your resume on a monthly basis to every company you want to work for and NEVER get lazy and stop sending them. Eventually you will get a phone all.

I deleted my last post. I mad too many people unhappy :)

[This message has been edited by Turbine (edited 20 January 2000).]

[Bendo]

Didn't you just say that? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[redsnail]

Turbine, I have been an instructor. Albeit for a short time. Yes, I did do all of the above.
I thought this thread was asking a question as to how to break into the so called charter world. I offered my opinion as to what I saw out there in the "bush". If you don't like what I wrote, sorry.

[apache]

Thank you BENDO!

Whilst I never really wanted to instruct, I did it anyway and thoroughly enjoyed doing it! Contrary to what some people may think, I actually found that I learnt from the students(as well as them learning from me). It also gives me much satisfaction to send a student of mine solo!!!.
Like BENDO and others, I still instruct and do charter work!!!I find that this is a good mix, and will keep you less cocky about your flying and you will appreciate charters a lot more!
Before you get into ICUS or BANKRUNS or CHARTERS, get to really know your aircraft!!!
Don't think that just reading the book and doing an endorsement is enough.Do not be afraid to ask other people questions on the aircraft, as some things are not covered in the endorsement ie.proper use of heater, hot starts, engine management on descent etc.
There is a lot more to charter flying than getting from A-B and landing smoothly!!!
Enjoy you instructing also!!!Be known as a "happy person"...not a "grumpy-bum", as a good attitude is what it's all about!!! :) :) :) :)

[shortstrip]

CLK where are you e-mail shortstrip
at [email protected] so we can catch up.

[Hudson]

To CFI.. You said - "Resumes addressed to Dear Sir, don't get very far with me." Did I read that correctly or are you merely playing heavy handed humourist?

One presumes that the hapless applicant seeking a job at your organization would not know if you were a Miss, Mrs, MZZ, or even a Madame. Perhaps you are even prefer the imposing title Dear Captain? Many GA managers love that title and wear 4 bars to prove it.

Come of the grass CFI. The poor sod that is forced to look for a job with you has probably written a hundred Dear Sir letters. So he took a punt this time and got the gender wrong. Big deal. Is that so important to your ego that you would trash his application? I can't believe this.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

My point was this, that it is not very difficult, and it is courteous, to at least find out the name, and therefore the gender, of the CP that you are applying to. Being part of a mail-shot of "Dear Sir's" isn't as impressive as getting a resume from someone who has done the research into your company, and at least knows what sort of aircraft you operate and what sort of ops you are involved in.

For example, if you get to talk to the CP and they say "Why do you want to work for our company?" which is better.
" I just want a job with any company" or
"Because I would like to specialise in the areas you specialise in such as....and I like the way you run your operations such as...."

When looking for a job in any competitive industry, an applicant needs to have an edge over the others. Most of us will have a few people that we already know and have seen doing good work, in mind for the next position that comes up. So be one of those people!

If a hapless poor-sod applicant has to send a hundred letters, then they have missed an important part of their training, that in this and many other industries, it is the network of people you have got to know so far, and the impression that you have made on those people, that really counts.

[Hudson]

Yeah OK. But if our poor sod is writing to Qantas, Ansett, National Jet, Virgin etc, surely Dear Sir is acceptable? And if the airlines find Dear Sir as acceptable, then perhaps you should too. After all, if our PS has to make all these discreet phone calls to the switchboards of these operators, merely to obtain the gender of the Chief Honcho to whom to write, then he may be regarded as a nutter.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Maybe, but this thread is about GA and I have endeavoured to answer the question from a GA employer's point of view.

Even for the airlines it would still be courteous to take the time to find out the name of the person to contact if you really want to work for them.

[redsnail]

It isn't difficult, all you do is ask "to whom do I address my application to"? They'll tell you. They'll even switch you to the person and you can talk to them. Easy. Doesn't take too long and it costs about a $1. If you live in WA it's even cheaper as you call before 7am and it is 9 or 10am on the east coast. That's what I used to do (and still do but now I have to pay full STD rates). Another option is to ring the local agent for the said airline, ask the questions, you'll get put on hold for a tick while they ask (via the internal network). I've done that one too.

[This message has been edited by redsnail (edited 04 February 2000).]

[whogivesa????]

what's wrong with " Dear Sir or Madam"...as comes up on "WORD" when writing a letter?

And if you do send out resumes, FOR GOD'S SAKE FOLLOW THEM UP!
even if it is just a phone call asking if they received it, but don't be pushy.

Anyone ever noticed how many pilots put "enjoy bushwalking " on their resumes?

[justfun]

CLK,is you are going to give charter a go I suggest the following:
Be prepared to work; Bring lots of commonsense; Be professional; Don't bore everyone with tails of "at Bla Bla Bla we used to...." ; Although I remember thinking I was a king when I got a couple of thousand hours, accept that it is only a drop in the bucket so most important of all, listen and be prepared to learn. Then it will be a breeze.
Good Luck.