USA-trained(?) PPLs

[BEagle]

I've recently had the misfortune of doing conversion-onto-type training for a couple of so-called USA trained PPLs, 1 of whom purported to have done the JAR PPL(A). At the risk of being accused of xenophobic generalities, I have to say that, if these 2 (from different schools) are typical products of the cheap and nasty USA training schools, then, despite the squeals of outrage from Ailing Bob, the CAA should insist on a total stop to USA-based training for ANY parts of JAR licences. The standard of piloting skill varied from bad to appalling; neither 'pilot' had ever heard of selecting, holding and trimming attitudes - and when I asked them how they were taught to correct errors on the approach, I was faced with blank looks. Yes, PPL training in this country is more expensive - but at least UK-trained pilots seem to be taught proper handling skills!! The leaden hand of Eurocracy must be moderated to ensure that we give new pilots their core competence in Europe and not at the hands of some so-called flight school in the land of Uncle Spam!!
(Excuse me - just off to the nuclear bunker!)

[JJflyer]

Really pisses me off to read crap like this...
So what BEagle is saying is that I actually have no idea what flying in Europe is all about as I am US trained and I really don't know how to fly at all...
Well Excuse me sir, but I have flown all over the world and without a problem. Does that mean that I was lucky ?
Or did I know what I was doing?
Don't go around generalising and judging all US trained pilots or the whole training industry after evaluating ONLY 2 PPL:s.
Have you ever even flown in US ?
Well try this for fun. Do your first solo from OAK international airport in the San Fransisco bay area with 10h where you have 15 airports witin 15nm radius...Would like to see you do that with your current experience.

Oh... and I was trained in EU before I left for US.

JJ



[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 10 September 1999).]

[Capt.Weasel]

Beagle, you'd be lost and helpless .... OAK within the San Francisco class B is busier than whole EU ... I got trained there, and I passed my european commercial checkride, and the ATPL without any troubles. Maybe you should think before you write things like that, although I have to agree, that there are huge differences between schools in the middle of nowhere and places like SFO, or Flight Safety.

Happy landings ...

The Weasel

[This message has been edited by Capt.Weasel (edited 10 September 1999).]

[BEagle]

Well, actually, yes. In 8000 hours of flying over the last 23 years I've done a fair bit of flying in the US - from 80 KIAS at 1000ft to M0.92 at 51000ft - and it's very, very, easy because of the level of spoon-feeding involved. But please note the difference between your own pure handling skills and the quality of instruction you were given. The 2 PPLs I flew with seem to have achieved their apallingly minimal prowess by virtually teaching themselves rather than by benefiting from a properly structured training programme. It was once described to me that the teaching in Spam-land is to do exercises 1-13 13 times rather than sequentially. And don't think that the level of yack on the radio is indicative of 'difficult' flying conditions - it just means that you get told what to do rather than learning to think for yourself! And that includes those pathetic folk who waffle up and down the East coast of Florida in desperately clapped-out C152s (oh yes they damn well are!!) thinking that fly North-keep the coast on the left, wait 1 1/2 hours, fly a 30 deg banked turn to the right (watch the G girls), fly South-keep the coast on the right, wait another 1 1/2 hours then land is a sound way of developing airmanship (probably a term never heard of in Spam-schools).
(Back into the bunker!!)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I hesitate to enter this one but I shall simply relate my experience.

I have now had two students who (separately) started in the USA at schools I had not heard of. Having completed around 30hrs each (roughly) they returned to blighty for one reason or another.

Both were terrible considering the hours they had done. The real basics of lookout scans, coordination and flying by reference to attitude were absent. What was present was a very relaxed attitude to walkrounds and use of radio.

Both thought I was being Boyo the Bastard when they flew with me as I was so 'picky'. In essence I would evaluate their 30hrs US as 4 hrs useful. The bad habits and attitudes took ages to kill off.

That is my experience. It is bound to be atypical. I draw no conclusions of a general nature. I am not having a go at anyone. I relate merely my experience in this area.

Happy and safe flying,

WWW

[BEagle]

WWW - funny old thing, but those were PRECISELY the same faults that I detected. The so-called JAR-PPL graduate had the same level of skill in the circuit as a RAF UAS student might have on his/her second ever circuit session - still trying to understand how to lookout ahead to assess tracking and attitude with the odd glance at the wingtip to assess positioning whilst trying to maintain straight and level balanced flight and remember the checks!!.

[JJflyer]

Hello there
Question... What schools might these .. four individuals have trained at...

I have to agree, with both of you,that the training in US was not nearly as good as that what I received in Europe.
Goundchools only slightly scratched the surface of the subject... Commercial groundschool was 4 weeks long as my private GS run 3 months and Multi combined with Commercial Inst was nearly 9 months...

A big problem here now is the low time CFI
with no experience in the real world of aviation. That might one reason that contributes to the lower than average standards of the US trained PPL:s you have dealt with.
Still every year Probably hundreds of US trained European Pilots come back and convert and get get hired with local airlines.
Why is that if they really suck ? perhaps it is actually possible to get good training over here. You just need to be careful where you go.

It was the busy enviroment and affordability of training that got me here in the first place and I have not regretted that move yet ( not a lot atleast ).
You see not everybody can afford to put thousands and thousands of pounds into training and get what 250-300 hours and a commercial and then what ?. No sir not me .

And saying that FAA to JAA licence conversions should be made impossible or that no training could be done in US is either result of lack of knowledge on the subject or very very dry humour.
That would only result in restricting pilot jobs to those only that are lucky enough to have been born into a rich family.
Solution for the JAA thing is: SCREEN THOSE CRAPPY SCHOOLS before they are authorised to do any sort of JAA training.

So what's the conclusion... Well you tell me

JJ

( My turn in the bunker )hahaha




[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 11 September 1999).]

[MaxAOB]

;) Firstly fellow instructors let us ensure we keep our messages professional. Even if we do not like some things let us respect each other! I have 'converted' a few USA trained pilots and the range goes from the excellent to the down right dangerous - and guess what it was indicative of how much they spent!! There are some excellent schools in America but you don't save as much as everyone tells you that you can so you go cheap and end up training yourself. I love flying in the States in fact I'm going touring around the Caribean (spellcheck please) in a fortnight. - Yes I will be dodging the fly north/south for one and a half hours brigade!
Anyway I think over here we are far more standardised but the country is about the size of Dallas!!! Fly safe and if anyone knows a decent strip near Nassau let me know! Safe flying as the freezing level gets lower!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

[rolling circle]

This thread is undoubtedly going to degenerate into a slanging match between those who have been trained in the USA (there's nothing wrong with FAA training) and those who have had to train ex-USA trained pilots (FAA training is rubbish).

I have instructed for the USAF, the RAF, a flight school in California, both PPL and Commercial (CAP 509) schools in the UK and The Netherlands. I can say, with no hesitation, that the quality of FAA flight training is the worst that I have ever come across. In over 40 years in the flight training business I have yet to meet a FAA instructor who can actually teach.

Well, we're all entitled to our opinion, aren't we?

[This message has been edited by rolling circle (edited 11 September 1999).]

[JJflyer]

Like I said, I have been trained in EU too...
Last thing I want is for this conversation to degenerate into a Mudshoot...

WWW : You mentioned that you had not heard about those schools before. A good name is not neccesary a guarantee for good training but tells you something.
MAX AOB : Good point there... You pretty much said it, US trained from excellent to dangerous.
ROLLING CIRCLE : So you haven't seen a good FAA instructor in all your years in the aviation. I know a few, I can introduce you.
But as you pointed out everyone has a right to an opinion, even if it is not same as mine.

JJ


[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 11 September 1999).]

[BEagle]

JJ Flyer - my original post said that IF (and only IF) the 2 PPLs I'd encountered were a representative sample of US PPL training, then indeed we should encourage the CAA to ensure that JAA training at PPL level is to remain in European JAR states. Of course once a pilot has reached an acceptable level of piloting skill, he/she will be able to move on to CPL/ATPL training, but these 2 certainly haven't reached that basic level of competence. I know that senior members of the CAA SRG regularly read PPRuNe - and I hope that this thread is attracting their attention. They propose that fuel duty and VAT should be removed from bona-fide flying training, which would allow schools to compete more easily with those in the USA on costs alone. But not, of course, with the weather conditions!! However, if we win back a bigger share of flying training in this country, we'll need more FI(A)s; JAR-FCL's killing-off of the UK BCPL won't be much encouragement for pilots to become FI(A)s as they'll now need CPL level knowledge as a minimum - and if they're going to go to that level of time and expense, they're hardly likely to prefer instructing to trying to get into the airlines, I venture!!

[LeadingEdge]

Oh my god.What a stupid,childish conversation!Professionals?????????????

[SKYYACHT]

Firstly, I conducted a good proportion of my ab-initio training for the PPL in the US, Southern California at Long Beach. I chose this location, as it was competitively priced, and offered the chance of good continuity of training, and learning in busy class B airspace. The field is shared by Mcdonnel, and is frequently busy with C17s MD80s, and MD heavy metal, including scheduled airlines. I certainly was given no quarter by my instructor, who was ex RN, and expected me to perform correctly. I learnt correct airmanship from a variety of instructors, both US nationals, and UK ex-pats, and found very few to be un-professional. Radio discipline was strict, (If different - it took me a short while to adapt to the more precise UK standards) and I came away as a reasonably competent pilot, having been checked out by various instructors at various clubs over the years - and none of them ever commented that my flying was not up to scratch.

I would welcome HMG reducing the VAT/Duty on fuel...perhaps if flying was cheaper, more pilots would remain in currency and would then excercise a better standard of airmanship


Tailwinds

------------------

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

No - not stupid and childish - reasoned, tentative, balanced and interesting would be more appropriate.

WWW

[JJflyer]

Good point SKYWATCH...

JJ

[BEagle]

The reasoned comments of most contributors to this thread seem to be overwhelmingly conclusive; although the presence of ex-pat or ex-UK military instructors in certain US flight schools perhaps means that those flight schools are probably unrepresentatively higher in quality than other US schools, the balance of opinion seems to indicate a generally poor standard of instruction in US flight schools. Oh, and by the way, quite what was the useful contribution to this thread that Leading Edge felt that he had to offer? Apart from petulant rhetoric, that is?

[ILSNDBVOR]

I suppose it is only natural for those trained in the US of A to jump to the defence of their training environment, but I have to say from my experience of flying with many more than BEagles '2' students from the new country that I have to agree with him. The only 'good' UK-USA student is one who has been trained by a Brit. This is understandable, how can we expect a USA instructor who has never even visited the UK let alone flown here to train to our standards? The CAA in their wisdom 'allow' these schools to use local american instructors to teach UK students, without ANY form of standardistion, oh the schools say they do, but we all know they do not. The CAA need to act now and shut all these quasi-JAA approved schools down, but as we speak this is being considered, so perhaps I am being a bit hard on my masters...

Before any 'yankees' have a go, I do believe the standard of FAA teaching is suitable for flying in the USA, it is just not suitable for this country where we have a different approach to flying.

BEagle, I congradulate you (and WWW), 2 men with the backbone to say what they mean, and I say again, it is only those that trained in the USA that leap to the defence of that industry, without understanding that we are talking about European flying and standards, not USA standards where they pay scant regard to such things as airmanship or self-help.

[JJflyer]

I simply stated that it is possible to get good training in US.
And that a busy airspace prepares you well for any enviroment you might encounter.

And that it is not possible to judge the whole system by evaluating 2 not even 100 students that have trained in US, as there must be hundreds of students that come back each year.
Never have I implied that system in US would be superior to that in Europe...Or other way around (Unlike some of us).

As i have trained on both continents I think that I am in a position to evaluate the standards of training better than some of us... How many of you have actually trained in US and in which schools?
Those of you reading this post that know me personally, know that I have always been very critical of US flight schools and the system in general... but I see some good in it too.
I was able to accept it.That is not the case with some of us that walk around blinded by their on magnificence.


JJ



[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 13 September 1999).]

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

My experience is: Trained to BCPL/AFI and instructed in the UK, built hours in the USA, now instructing in Australia. Sadly I have to agree that those who have trained in the USA on the whole seem to have different standards than those who have trained in the UK. I recently had to almost completely retrain from scratch one guy who wanted to convert his USA PPL to Australian.

Having flown there I think an issue in the USA is that it is all so nice and user friendly, getting the weather, notams etc is all a breeze, ATC are wonderful and helpful and SOOOO polite. Perhaps it makes the pilots a wee bit complacent. Here in Aus we have to get all that information for ourselves, and in WA there aint no radar apart from the immediate vicinity of Perth. (Abovementioned chap was some 250 nm from Perth, and asked for a radar vector...) I think a lot of the descision making is too easy there, they don't have to think for themselves as much, and when they go to fly elsewhere it is overwhelming. It doesn't matter how busy the airspace or how big the other aircraft where you are learning by the way. Aviate and Navigate come before Communicate.
Re the JAA situation, I have asked if I can train for the JAA PPL here in Aus and have been told no, the training can only be done in member states. I asked if that meant the USA schools wouldn't be able to do the training and was told that was correct.
IMHO that's a good thing, because there is no such thing as "cheap" flying and too many wannabees get hurt by some of the sharks operating out there now.

------------------

[BEagle]

I should add that I've also flown with PPL holders who were trained in Australia and South Africa - and they all had excellent standards of piloting skills and airmanship and were well capable of looking after themselves with only minimal supervision.

[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 13 September 1999).]

[Pheasant Plucker]

Anyone with any comments on American r/t....?!

(Light blue touchpaper and run! :))

[JJflyer]

Hahahaha... Same chaps here... Pheasant Plucker.
As I have an accent and I have been trained in US , I am hardly worthy to comment anything...hahahah

JJ

P.S Its time for me to climb back to my tree.

[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 14 September 1999).]

[LeadingEdge]

Sorry folks,but why,actually are you discussing things like that?I was an instructor in the US,and I had to check out german PPLs,that wanted to fly there-,I refused to sign them off,because the skills they showed me were SO INCREDIBLY BAD,no idea about stall/spin awareness,etc.
OK,but still,I dont think that all students from germany are bad,not at all.It is just that I know the training environment in the US and in Germany,and It seems to me,the US system is more practical oriented.

On the other hand,I had students coming over from Florida to our school(California),and their skills were INCREDIBLY bad...

So,there are good schools out there,and there are bad ones.Because students from europe want to train for the least money,they go to the worst schools,and,get the worst training.

How can they expect to get good training for very little money(like PPL for 2200USD..)

BTW sorry about my English,but its not my mother tongue.

[hugh flung_dung]

Another Brit instructor throws himself to the Lions....

In several years of instructing I've "converted" 2 US trained PPLs, 1 NZ trained PPL and flown with a large number of UK and European pilots. There's always going to be a range of piloting skills due to natural aptitude but, in my limited experience and from this very small non-European sample, (gulp), a 100% of those I've flown with who were trained in the US were at the lower end of the skill range. They both got their FAA licenses in minimum hours.
Typical problems were a total inability to use Visual nav techniques, poor approach speed control, abject terror when a wing dropped at the stall and a lack of "captaincy".
I've flown with others who have done some training in the US and heard awful stories.
I'm sure that there are a large number of excellent pilots who trained in the US but it's just that I haven't met them yet and we all form our opinions based on our own experiences.

Is there any space left in that bunker?

[StudentInDebt]

I did my PPL out in the US and I went back this year to build some hours. At the CAA school I used automatic passes on reaching 40 hours were not the order of the day.

I was fortunate last year to have British Instructors, chaps out there this year were sitting their Nav exams having never seen a CAA 1/2mil! The US instructors - whilst absolutly excellent were not always up to speed on the CAA sylabus.

Another school not a million miles away from a certain raceway had a VERY serious accident whilst I was over there this year - one of their overused Cessnas became a lawn dart at night. I am led to believe that the ethos of the school concerned was to have students fly during the day and hour builders fly at night.

I have also heard that someone did a survey on the pilots involved in GASIL reports and found that a high proportion originated from the same school.

I'm not going to suggest that CAA/JAA training be banned outside of Europe but I think the CAA should be taking more of an interest in how these places are run and the state of the aircraft being used. I've also found some pretty apaulling pilots over here who've spent all their PPL lives flying in the UK for 5 hours every year - its not only the USA that breeds them

[This message has been edited by StudentInDebt (edited 14 September 1999).]

[Luftwaffle]

I've flown as a student with instructors who were trained in the US, Canada and the UK.

BEagle - I suggest that complete cluelessness at being asked to trim for an attitude or explain how you were taught to do X, may be more of a terminology problem than a knowledge problem. For example, American pilots are taught to "trim for airspeed." In my admittedly limited sample (2 Brits and 2 Americans) the Brits put more emphasis on intellectually knowing what's going on, while the Americans put more emphasis on "just fly the plane, damnit." We Canadians, as always, come up the middle.
(Why did the Canadian cross the road?)

When I fly with a new instructor, whereever they are from, there is usually something they are surprised that I don't know AND something I've already learned from someone else, that I teach them.

[Capt Homesick]

I taught in the UK before doing a stint as a 509 QFI in the US- working at one of the best flying schools in the country, which was a part of the largest civilian FTO in the world (no prizes for guessing which company!).
Even this large FTO had some serious gaps in training. For example, company policy banned landing on grass runways. This led to students being taught rough field ops by instructors who had never themselves done it for real, and who had in turn been taught by instructors who had never done it, and who had in turn....
Some of the US instructors trained for, and achieved, CAP509 approval: those who succeeded were excellent instructors, and completely belie any accusations that Yanks can't teach flying. However, they had considerably more inst. experience than some of their colleagues. As a contributor has said, the biggest problem (IMHO) with FAA instructors is that they don't need to be experienced to teach commercial courses, rather than PPL. Even to teach INSTRUCTORS, an FAA CFI only needs to have done 200 hours instructing!
And that leads us to a problem. Under JAA, the instructional experience of FIs is much less than that for 509. At the same time, the course is shorter! On balance, I prefer the CAA syllabus, and the level of standardisation required of 509 schools.
Again IMHO, the US system works for the US because their airlines use the commuters to weed out those unsuitable for larger aircraft. In the UK, and in much of Europe, we do not have anything like the number of commuter companies. Population densities are such that the distance which might support a Beech 1900 in many parts of the US, will support a 737 (or at least an ERJ145). Therefore, the weeding out has to be done in the training process. Hence, UK licences, and many other European licences, were a real pain to obtain. The good US schools are aware of this: the mediocre ones put out a US product (possibly a good product, but for the wrong market) for a European requirement. The bad schools: just don't go there.
Room for any more in the bunker?

[JJflyer]

There we are ... Good show StudenInDept...
Some nice pointers there.


JJ

[Diesel8]

Captain Homesick,

No need to run for the bunker, I am FAA ATP, flight instructor, driving big birds. I totally agree!!!

[Pub 45]

Captain Homesick,

Some excellent points sir. Thanks for that.
I wonder though if what you're saying could be interpreted as meaning that pilots get an oportunity to 'improve' as they move through the commuters - the weeding out being of those who fail to do so. Or fail to do so enough. If that is true, than I would be inclined to believe that foreign students training ab-intio to CPL in the US would be returning home with 'incomplete' skills. As you mentioned, most (all?) other countries do not have the setup of commuters that the states does.
IMHO, many trainees opt not to go to the US, despite its economic incentive, because of this reason.
Similarly, as the title of this thread was, US trained private pilots, would appear to have been left to fend for themselves in the fine tuning department.

P45


------------------
'Watch thine airspeed
Lest the ground arise and smite thee'

[This message has been edited by Pub 45 (edited 13 December 1999).]

[Tips]

Ref RT how about this;

American aircraft being flown in the UK by an American female......

Aircraft - "Hello x this is C/S requesting the QNH"

x - "The london QNH is 1029"

Aircraft - "Roger... can I get it in inches?"

Anonymous aircraft flown by a british male - "Oh yeah..... give it to her real hard!"

[Grandad Flyer]

Oh well, time to add my bit.
You probably know what I am going to say.
I found the training in the USA fine and went on to fly many hours in Europe and the UK. Almost all of my hours for issue of CPL (self improver) were completed either in the USA or in the UK, in a non radio PFA aircraft. The CAA let me complete a non approved IR course despite only having 400 hours TT (most in the US). I did only about 10 hours total for that (including the test). I passed the UK GFT at about the same time.
I went straight from flying light aircraft to large commercial jets and was selected on my ability. Funnily enough, I was the only one on my course (the others were CAP 509 x 2 and an instructor) who was commended during my line training for my excellent RT!!!
Not bad considering virtually the only RT I had done was in the US.
I have a different viewpoint I can throw in here. Whilst hour building in the US I flew with quite a few UK trained PPLs.
The complete lack of ability of basic circuit planning and flying was amazing! With one chap, he could not get the hang of flying a circuit by looking out the window and clung desperately to his instruments.
He hadn't heard of looking out the window.
Once he had tried the "no instrument" approach, he improved, as did his landings.
It seemed amongst those I flew with that there was a total lack of knowledge of the aircraft systems (something which is drummed into you in the FAA syllabus).
RT and pre-flight planning, filing flight plans, talking on the radio in busy terminal areas, flying at UNICOM fields, were all big problems for the UK guys.
So I reckon maybe it works both ways.
I trained in the USA and did most of my flying there. My RT is excellent, and I have had no problems flying in the UK or elsewhere (apart from having to constantly scratch around VFR at low levels).
UK trained pilots came totally unstuck when abroad.
I suppose if you just want to fly in the UK, then training in the UK is sufficient.
If you want to be able to fly anywhere in the world, then consider training in the USA.
I am sure there are good and bad instructors in the USA as there are in the UK.
If the CAA think a school is good enough, it will approve it. This has happened, therefore the CAA are happy that the school is up to standard.

[Tips]

Ref Pheasant Pluckers RT question.....

American Female flying an American AC in UK.

Female: "Hello x this is C/S requesting the london QNH"

C/S: "The London is 1028mb"

Female: "Can I get that in inches please?"

Anon Male in another AC: "OOOOOOOOH yeah..... give it to her real hard!

[Capt Homesick]

An interesting post from Grandad Flyer; almost exactly matches my experience checking PPLS out: just reverse the acronyms "USA" and "UK"!

[ILSNDBVOR]

Grandad Flyer with his 'USA bias' again I see! Hmm, 'UK pilots cannot fly abroad', gee old man, give it up will you! Rather stupid thing to say, hmm?

[Capt Homesick]

Anyone who reckons that US pilots are better at looking out the window, check out the "Piper+Cessna=Biplane in Florida" thread in Rumours & News.
Somebody used up one of their nine lives there!

[JJflyer]

ILSNDBVOR...

Grmaps has a point there...Is it so hard to accept plain facts... time for a reality check.
Just another bloke hiding behind a name... no Email address, nothing...
A lot of mouth but absolutely no brains whatsoever.
Gramps has plenty of experience to compare both countries, I am yet to see your credentials.
Makes me really sad .

JJ

[class-e]

Gramps....please take medication AFTER posting on this thread...not before!!!

It sounds like you are really proud of your R/T capabilities..but then what yank trained pilot isn't?

with reference to US trained pilots, my view is simple and unbiased...you suck!

Is that not clear by everybody elses opinions posted here?

[This message has been edited by class-e (edited 17 December 1999).]

[Grandad Flyer]

class-e thank you for assuming I am American.
I have never been accused of that before.
However I am British through and through. I was born in the UK, grew up in the UK, went to school in the UK, work and live in the UK. I have however flown in the USA and trained out there. I learnt alot. The CAA recognised my FAA licence and experience by substantially reducing the training/ tests I needed to complete for a CAA licence.
I converted my FAA licence to a CAA ATPL and fly commercially now. I am based in the UK, but obviously fly to many different countries.
But hey, if you want to rant and show us your prejudices that is fine.
I think it is someone else who is having problems with their medication.

[Diesel8]

Class-E,

I think its time you get a glass of warm milk and a nap, sounds like you are getting a little cranky. Remember, children like you should be seen and not heard.

I am somewhat curious as how you could lump so many people into the same category, next thing I expect to hear is that all EU pilots are good!!

[JJflyer]

Class-E is just upset as somebody else has done what he wants to do... that is, to fly in EU. Poor sod probably cannot tell the difference between airplane and a cow.
I would not get too worried about his comments.
You will find idiots regardless where you go and what your profession is.

For all you who share those negative attitudes about your fellow aviators so apparent on this thread.
I suggest that you visit Agony Aunt forum and relieve your childhood time frustrations there.

I fully understand critical conversation,but the intolerance for and prejudice displayed by some contributors to this forum just does not stop amazing me.
All of this Anti-american BS mostly from same people has started to annoy me a little.
Well let me tell you something. Without Americans and their help Onkel Adolf would have been goose-stepping around Piccadilly and put you in to your places, now would that have been fun??

Gramps tells us that his R/T is good... well obvously it is, he is afterall flying for an airline as an F/O.
I have never had any problems flying around the world either.So I would have to come to a conclusion that my R/T is pretty good too. Atleast I use standard ICAO phraseology.

JJ

[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 15 December 1999).]

[Pub 45]

Captain Homesick,

I was hoping to get your opinion on my post of 13 Dec.
Since I have never had the experience of flying with an American Pilot, my perception of them, right or wrong, is based upon what I hear and what I read here.
Any thoughtful feedback would thus be greatly appreciated.

Pub45

------------------
Watch thine airspeed
Lest the ground arise and smite thee

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The nature of this medium is trapping many people into becoming overly angry. We would all get along just fine in the bar I am sure.

Its a valid discussion thread and highly relevant to many of us so I do not want to lock it.

I - for one - find that some students from the States are appalling. I draw no further conclusions.

WWW

[JJflyer]

WWW
I'll keep my temper under control.
It seems that there are some very good points that come out, regardless of all the mud that is thrown...

JJ

[Capt Homesick]

Pub45, flying like Americans is no big problem. If they've flown for a major airline, then they will be up to scratch- there may be small differences in "presentation", but that's about it. Any doubts I have are about their training system- it tends to assume you will follow the ordained path: student, instructor, commuter, regional, then major.
You're probably right, those that succeed in the commuter and regionals pick up the experience they need, and receive further training as required. I suppose it's understandable, their system supports them so well in operation that much of what we learn is superfluous. Climatology is unlikely to be necessary, given the excellent standard of met briefing they can obtain. And if you can have an entire career flying round one enormous country, with everybody a native speaker of your language, does it matter if you don't use exact terminology on the R/T?

On my first day of line training, I spoke to controllers in the UK, the Netherlands, and Germany. The following week it was Germany again, France, Austria. Then Italy, Switzerland and Finland. My R/T had to be standard!

It was interesting, when I worked in the US, to hear the sort of questions the commuters were asking at interview. It was a bit like our ATPL exams- people sweated about them far more than about their FAA writtens. Everything from basic aerodynamics to patterns of lights at airfield were asked. I've never been asked things like that at an interview in the UK- ok, a couple of very technical questions, one or two on CRM, but not a whole bunch of them.
I've also flown with one or two UK captains (CAA licenced, trained in the UK) whose skills seemed deficient to me. In the minority, sure, but they exist. So I guess the short answer is, watch whoever you fly with, learn from if you can, but be prepared.
Sorry about that, the answer seemed to drag on longer than I meant!

[Diesel8]

Gentlemen,

I find it hard to believe I have to defend my skills against neophytes and dreamers. Yes, I am trained in the USA, but born and raised in Europe. Came here to pursue avaiation at a time when no one was doing any hiring in Europe, one thing led to another and ended up staying.

I have flown all over the world and have never had any problems, whether it be with R/T, flying approaches or weather. In general I found the wx briefings in Europe to be better than the US, but the actual wx no different. An ILS is an ILS. Flying in Africa is worse than South America and so on.

Are americans substandard pilots, I strongly disagree. As someone mentioned there are differences in presentation, but are our skills below par? No, the accident statistics does not support such a finding.

Flying is a mixture of knowledge and experience. It helps to know the why's about thunderstorms and also to deviate around them.

Too many people in here are bashing just for the sake of it, without any real reason or justification. Why is that, what does it accomplish? Maybe it makes them feel better about their "skills", who knows, I for one certainly don't care for it. Yes, it does seem that the sentiment is americans cannot fly, but then again, how many americans have actually responded to this thread? Perhaps that is because we do not care about a few #ssholes that have big mouths and small brains. 'nuff said!!!



------------------
It's been real, it's been fun, but it has not been real fun

[Swamp]

Diesel8,

I have flown all over the world and have never had any problems

If you have never had any problems then you haven't been flying long enough.



[This message has been edited by Swamp (edited 16 December 1999).]

[JJflyer]

Having problems... NO I have not had problems flying ANYWHERE in the world where the cause would have been training I received in US.
above is what i think Diesel8 tried to say.

Training I got in US does not make me any better nor does it make me any worse than you fellows who are solely been trained in UK.
As I have received training on both continents I think that I have received better from both worlds.
Anyways...


JJ

[Diesel8]

Swamp,

I think you get the drift and yes most of my logbook is written in blood, but thats probably due to my flying skill rather than my edumacuation!!

[Capt Homesick]

Personally, I'd rather be lucky than good. To be both would be nice, but I'm not sure if humans can do that.....

[BEagle]

Capt H - I don't think your passengers would be terribly happy with that sentiment!! I'm sure they'd sooner fly with someone who aspires to high standards rather than puts his trust in luck..........!!

[Capt Homesick]

BEagle, it doesn't matter how good you are, there are some situations that can get you. Unless you are infallible?

[Diesel8]

Beagle and Class-E are above the "skill" called luck.

[BEagle]

Sorry - but there is no place in aviation for trusting to luck!! You must have the relevant skills even though you don't have to be an ace pilot. For example, it's stupidity that gets an unrated pilot into IMC, luck that stops him killing himself. But it's skill that allows him to avoid the situation in the first place!!

[Capt Homesick]

What is it when you're flying a hold in clear air, and a CB develops below you and you get struck by Lightning? I like to think it was skill that got our chestnuts out of the fire that day, but I'd rather not have been struck in the first place!

[britavia]

Seems we have two camps here..the European "best in the world" and the rest of the world. Here's my bit:

I've flown with american private pilots who I couldn't sign off for their BFRs as well as rental checkouts to UK private pilots who were so rusty in their skills, it doesn't suprise me that (UK) accident reports show problems with takeoffs and landings.

I am a Brit living and working here in the USA working for a small pt 61 school. Sure, we don't have the resources of OATS, Flightsafety et al..but I personally insist students know visual nav by pilotage and dead reckoning, including flying into busier airspace. GPS is great but is just one tool to use.

Sure, the US system is different. It's like comparing apples and pears, but I don't think one can seriously argue that a British Airways captain is a "better" pilot than a United Airlines captain. Once an individual has gained enough practical experience and knowledge, it doesn't matter how or where they trained.

What IS different is avgas @ $2.00 per gallon, less restricted airspace, less risk of military low-flying accidents and a far more user-friendly and economical offical body to deal with.

Long live Uncle Sam! :-)

[Sensible]

Its nice to read so many unbiased opinions (not). Would it be fair to conclude then that:
a) All USA trained pilots are rubbish irrespective of whether they are British or US citizens?

b) British trained pilots are better pilots whether flying in the USA or UK !

c) The standard of training at all US schools
is inferior to UK schools.

Need I go on ??

I have not heard such talk since my infants school days......"my dad can beat up your dad" etc etc

God, what a lot of old jet blast!!!

------------------
To make a dream come true, first WAKE UP !

[JJflyer]

SENSIBLE

I could not agree more... It just seems to be very hard for some individuals to understand and comprehend those facts you brought up.

JJ

[Capt Pit Bull]

Here is my take on all this.

I've concerted a few US trained guys back to CAA licences, and they turned out to be pretty good. However, the sample size was small, and they were low end CPL / Instructors at approx 1500 hrs, rather than raw PPLs.

I've also done a bit of flying in the states, hiring aircraft from 2 flying schools at which europeans were doing PPLs. And I have to say that I was concerned by the quality of the courses they were receiving. There were some perfectly capable instructors, but they were working flat out and the overall supervision of the course just wasn't there. In fact, both schools had recently qualified PPLs write of an aircraft, in one case fatally. One of these schools is now out of business, and the other is somewhat notorious on this site. Mentioning no names but its on the east coast of Florida....

Now, I accept that my experience of the US situation has been pretty negative, especially because of the fatality, and 2 schools is not a representative sample. Nevertheless, I'd be lying if I said that the overall quality didn't concern me. Even so, that does not mean all US trained pilots are crap any more than it means all UK trained pilots are perfect!

Bleh. All I've done so far is repeat things others have already said. Time for something different...

I reckon students who go across to the UK to train for a PPL in a concentrated lump have got 2 big things going against them:

1. Stuff is different.
2. Knowledge Retention (or lack thereof).


Stuff Is Different.

My pet theory is that the difference between a flight that is going fine, and another flight that goes to worms, can often be a minor increase in workload. In the first case, you've got a bit of spare capacity, in the other you're 'maxed out'.

So when a student suddenly seems to 'click', and starts to be able to hack it, it looks like they've somehow radically improved their skill. But I reckon that what is actually happening is the student is gradually learning stuff, and eventually makes the transition between working at 101% capacity and working at 99% capacity.

As you get more experienced, you have more spare capacity. But the newly qualified PPL holder doesn't, and therefore anything which requires brain power may well nudge the poor sod back over the 100% workload barrier and bring everything tumbling down.

Now your US trained PPL getting checked out in the UK (*or vice versa*) has an accumulation of stuff which is different. OK, a Cessna - 152 is still the same aircraft, but we all know that aircraft handling is only a small part, (albeit an important one) of being a pilot.

The RT is different. The charts are different. The sorts of nav features which are good fixes are different. Instrument / Comm / Nav fit may be different. Sources of weather data are different. None of these changes is staggering, but its 'death of a thousand cuts' territory.

A more experienced pilot has the spare capacity to take these changes in his/her stride. But the newly qualified PPL, by and large, does not. Therefore they are likely to fly like a chimp.

In other words, I reckon a would be PPL would be wise to train in the environment they plan to fly in after they have completed their training. Then build up experience in the same environment. Then branch out.


Knowledge Retention (or lack thereof)

I'm not a big fan of people doing PPLs in concentrated courses.

Its a bit like cramming for an exam. The student may well have enough knowledge / skills stuffed inside his head to complete the course, but how well will it be retained?

Especially if the savings have all just been spent in one lump, and it will be a while before things can be consolidated once the new PPL returns to their country of origin.

I reckon its better to accept the uncertainties of the UK weather. If the student can't fly, theres no end of other things they can productively do. Groundschool, Briefings, Practice drills, etc.

Spread the course out, there more to it than the time spent in the air.

So basically, I'm saying that even assuming quality of instruction is identical in the US and UK, I reckon US trained pilots will perform poorly when first flying in the UK. Obviously it is a sweeping generalisation, but I think there are inherent factors which make it likely.

Oh, and as I mentioned above, the same factors would apply the other way around, but I don't suppose many Americans decide to visit the UK to do a PPL!

In completion, the first time I visited the States I had about 200 hrs of experience. The combination of small changes in the environment, compared to what I was used to, did make me feel like I was flying slightly below par. It was a feeling which rapidly went away, but I'm sure that the check flight I did on arrival was not my most polished performance.

CPB

[Capt Homesick]

Excellent points Pit Bull. And BEagle, no offence meant- I stand by what I said about needing some luck, but I also believe that we make our own luck by training, practice, and always giving 100%.
:)

[Pub 45]

Its good to see that this thread has calmed down; seemingly come to an end. Could it be that there is a consensus, or just that everybody's off vacationing? I was.

Capt. Homesick: thanks for the response.


------------------
'Watch thine airspeed
Lest the ground arise and smite thee!'

[BEagle]

Since I started this thread, may I finish?? Although I've encountered some very poor PPL holders who had done 'quickie' courses in the USA, I am quite prepared to believe that there are equally some very good US-trained PPL holders - it's just that I haven't yet met one, but that's as may be.
Incidentally, I also encountered a UK-trained PPL holder last year who wanted a check out but didn't even have a valid licence as her CofE was out of date - although she had done some recent flying. We thus launched off to do a GFT - and her flying was so poor that, apart from the fact that she failed dismally, I would have serious doubts about letting her have command of a wheelbarrow - and certainly not a bicycle!!

[pilotbear]

I did my initial flying training in the USA, and I felt that I good have had more CAA type thorough basic ability and awareness training.It was good having to do my CAA RT licence over here in England.
However, whilst I was doing my hour building for my commercial I was able to practice approaches and landings at the major airports, Tampa, Orlando int. and Miami int. all for free and getting used to following ATC instructions to the letter whilst slotting in between 757,767, airbus etc.

So the USA does have its advantages, however I agree that there should be more screening of schools offering JAA and CAA ratings.

One point though, if you are going to criticise certain schools, have the courage to name them!
I went to Britannia in Florida..

[Sensible]

An excellent choice indeed! you could have done much much worse!

[Rowley Birkin, QC]

I got my PPL in the US.

Shame on me.

Or not, read on...

I then joined the University Air Squadron, so I believe I have something to compare the training to.

Maybe I was lucky- my instructor had had already validated his ATPL with 1500h, and had actually stopped logging the single engine hours he was flying(????). He stayed on as an instructor, though, just until his conversion course (to UK ATPL) started. The instruction he gave me was second to none, and I mean NONE, including the instruction I was given in the UAS.

Starts walking towards the bunker

I was given some pretty poor instruction by an instructor I had for my IMC, also in Florida- so much so that I was tested on ILSs during my flight test and told the examiner (after my third failed attempt) that I'd never done one, because with all the instruction given to me by Mr V***** *a*i*a, that was what seemed like the truth.

Thankfully (or not?), the instruction given to me by my PPL instructor was enough for me to pass the test on an SRA (bear in mind that this is mid afternoon Florida in June. Turbelence? just a bit).

So, I think to generalise that all instructors 'over there' are bad is unfair. There are some bad ones, but as I know there are some bloody good ones too.

[smallwing]

Hello All,

I just glance through this topic and found a lot of things to say. Firstly, I did flying in the US, and have all my hours for a PPL, but unfortunately, the school was backlogged and I did not have a chance to do a checkride. As for the self taught part, sometimes it helps to help yourself, and it does save some money and brains to understand the stuff.

I don't know much about flying in the UK, but one comment I must make is that I get a feeling from some CFIs, not all, that once they get their hours, they are not into teaching anymore. That sort of disappoint me.

Flying was born in the US of A and even though it became more popular in UK, I think I will give credit for flying in the US.

Hope that didn't insult anyone. Thanks.

[dicko]

Note to all American trained pilots: we are all shiite. Further more if we don't clean up our act Tinky Winky and the Queen Mother are going to be very cross. Cheerio.

[dicko]

Note to all American trained pilots: we are all shiite. Further more if we don't clean up our act Tinky Winky and the Queen Mother are going to be very cross. Cheerio.

[JJflyer]

Yes Dicko... Beware

JJ

[Capt Homesick]

Is there anything to the theory that Percy Pilcher would never have got his powered aircraft to fly, simply because "Cardross, near Helensburgh" sounds far less cool as a birthplace for aviation than Kitty Hawk sands?

[Towbar]

BEagle....Your a w***er aren't you?
I could tell by the way you pretend everyone else is of a lower form to make yourself feel a bit better.
Hows the home life?


[This message has been edited by Towbar (edited 05 February 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Towbar (edited 05 February 2000).]

[BEagle]

No, my dear Oz chum, I don't believe I'm a w***er. I presume you mean 'wonder'?? All I've been saying is that some people seem to have not been trained terribly well - whether in the USA, UK, Europe, Australia or Mars for that matter isn't significant. Because the 2 I came across in a short space of time had both been through a similar training scheme and both had similar poor levels of understanding and application, I wondered whether this was generally indicative of an overall poor training system, or whether it was just the 2 of them who weren't particularly good. I don't yet know the answer to that - but I do NOT think that ALL non-UK trained pilots are poor; there are good and bad pilots in every country.
Home life's just fine thanks, old bean, since you had the kindness to ask. How's glorious Oz??

[OC Piztoff]

there is a certian amount of truth in this US pilot hullabaloo. i have flown with captains (most of whom are fairly low time for the position) and have considered some of their judgments as a bit dubious.

but seeing as I'm 100% USA trained (NAIA) who am I to talk?

doesn't mean to say that I don't like to hear people slagging off yankee drivers. My instructor was f***ing brilliant. so, bEagle, I resent your comments and have to agree with an aforementioned post. (but only because you're chip on the shoulder UAS type).

[BEagle]

Right - I'll try it again in even simpler English. I have flown with 2 US-trained PPLs. Both were poor. Are others better?? I don't know because I haven't met any other US-trained ones yet. But whoever trained these 2 did a very poor job. Others would probably have done a better one.
Is that simple enough for you to understand?

[europhobe]

So you started this whole thread on account of two PPLs , right ?

I was originally a US trained PPL. Now I have taught FAA and CAA PPLs and CPLs. I have done rental checks for US, UK, other parts of europe and Oz trained pilots and believe me I could tell you horror stories from the lot except the Oz - this is not an invitation for the Oz's to get mouthy, it was only one , so by Beagle's logic it implies nothing but is worth starting a row about!

FAA pilots can be horribly ill disciplined at times. Equally annoying are the CAA ones who are dangerously inflexible "This is the right way because it's what I was taught in England and I'm not adapting it for anyone", and again believe me, this is so common.

[BEagle]

Yes - because I was so asonished at their staggering lack of prowess I merely sought to establish whether they were typical products of certain '3-week instant pilot' establishments. I certainly hope that they weren't. But, on the other hand, I've only ever heard high praise concerning Oz standards.

[HUE JORGAN]

Beagle, i once ate 2 apples from the us, and they were both disgusting....that must mean every single apple there tastes like **** , right??!! Why is it that you poms think you are the best at everything..wake up and smell the coffee son!!

[Airprox]

I've flown with many US trained PPLs most of who weren't as good as theyshould be to have a licence.

The problem isn't that the British think they're the best, its just that would be pilots go the the US for cheap licences. They go to schools which push them through the PPL too quickly and with too much hand holding. Then they come home to Great Britain where every thing in aviation is wierd to them, They probably haven't flown in months and virtually can't fly.

Some off my own students who have been to America told me the instructor they had pulled their flying to bits and the different ideas (joining downwind at 45 degrees) mesmerised them.

Airprox

[Flangemeister]

BEagle -

NW, is that you?

[BEagle]

Jawohl, Herr Flangemeister. Du bist korrekt!! Und du bist.....??
Die Fahne hoch......!!

[rolling circle]

Regular readers of Pprune will know my opinion of FAA training. However, how do we feel about a British (notice that I didn't say UK) school that 'guarantees' a PPL in the minimum hours?

WWW - care to comment?

[Diesel8]

Was sincerely hoping this thread was dead by now, I guess not!!!

[JJflyer]

Same tone as the Johnny foreigner job thives has in the Wannabes forum...
JJ

[BEagle]

JJ - yes, I agree with you. That 'Johnny Foreigner Job Thieves' thing is pretty unsavoury. At the risk of causing further offence, yesterday I conducted a PPL Skill Test. Most went OK. but the guy's navigation wasn't good enough. I have to say that it was the 'applicant' himself who confided that he hadn't really been taught much about navigation..........at an 'instant pilot' school in the USofA. I blame my own instructors for not getting him up to speed to some extent - but why oh why wasn't he taught properly over there. As JJ says - we can't generalise as there MUST be some places in the US producing excellent pilots, surely??

[Va]

There does seem to be a lot of US flight school bashing here but the agitators forget an important point. If the standard of US flight training is generally poor then perhaps the accident statistics would bear that claim out? The fact is that as a percentage, the number of fatal and non-fatal accidents within US GA is the same as it is in virtually all European countries. Explain that one if you can!

As an FAA CFI I often have to check-out foreign pilots seeking to rent aircraft from our school in the States. Whilst the average foreign pilot demonstrates higher procedural abilities, i.e. check-list compliance, etc, I've seen a noticeable trend in poor slow flight control and landing skills plus patterns (or circuits) that are so wide as to cause concern should the engine fail at low altitude. Again we go back to the essential difference between FAA and CAA/JAA training and I agree there are weaknesses, but not as some of your contributors make out, all the fault of the FAA!

[BEagle]

Quite right!! And why do some UK schools teach such ridiculously wide patterns?? I was always taught to stay within gliding range of the aerodrome whenever possible in the visual circuit (closed pattern).

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Many moons ago I went to Florida to do my multi-engine rating. My pre-flight briefing consisted of "Go check the gas in the Seneca"
Having never even flown a CSU aircraft, and having no handbooks or anything, it was pretty hard to work out what was going on. The only assymetrics we did were in the cruise. How bad is that for instructing technique?

Recently a student has come here to us in Aus with a UK PPL done in the USA. He only had 1.4 hours I.F. How on earth did he get a UK PPL??!!

HOWEVER we all fly our worst on check-rides and flight tests. I have seen some very good and some shocking flying from PPLs from all over the world, including the UK.

OK folks, I'm closing this thread now due to it's length, but please feel free to continue the subject on a new thread if you like.