Cranwell / Dartmouth to go?

[Mr C Hinecap]

From the Telegraph today......


The Royal Navy's historic officer training base at Dartmouth faces closure as part of a wave of heavy defence cuts.

The move is bound to provoke fierce criticism. Previous students at the 140-year-old base include Prince Philip, the Prince of Wales and the Duke of York.

The RAF's officer training base at Cranwell, Lincs, set up in 1920, will also close.

The Army will keep its officer training college at Sandhurst but all Royal Navy and RAF officer training will move to the Joint Services Command and Staff College at Shrivenham, Wilts.

The present Dartmouth college was built in 1905 on land owned by the estate of Sir Walter Raleigh. Before that officers were trained on the wooden ship Britannia moored on the river Dart.

The cuts are part of Ministry of Defence plans to save billions of pounds, as demanded by the Treasury. Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, will announce them on Wednesday, the day before the Commons rises for the summer recess. The timing has been chosen to reduce the amount of time MPs have to debate them.

Mr Hoon will provide no details and will try to explain away the cuts by saying that they form part of a "re-balancing" of the Armed Forces to meet the needs of the 21st century.



We might not have loved our time at Cranners/Dartmouth, but strewth! Isn't Cranwell the oldest Air Academy or something? Bet we keep lots of nice places in / near London tho!

:mad: :mad:

[allan907]

This has got to be fought. Can I hear the sound of lots of airships and admirals voicing their opinions and putting in their resignations? No....thought not:mad: :mad: :mad:

[ORAC]

"This has got to be fought."

Why? I can see major advantages in a joint training unit, and Shrivenham has some excellent facilities and joint strategy & tactics organisations.

But then again, I were a Henlow lad and never visited Cranwell in 25 years of service - so I have no emotional bonds with the place

[Basil]

We are more and more heavily taxed so that Brown (Save us from the families of Scottish clerics) can throw money at a top-heavy and inefficient NHS, pay classroom assistants more than newly qualified teachers, spend huge sums on anyone who wishes to come to the UK legally or otherwise but national security can go on the back burner. (list by no means exhaustive).

President Kirchner (Argentina), here's your chance to make a name for yourself!

Past graduates of these colleges must be spinning in their graves!

[airborne_artist]

Great idea - with only one small problem for the RN - it's a long way to the sea from Shrivenham, and traditionally the sea is where the RN keeps its ships, and so it is usefull to be by the coast for baby officers to learn about boats etc.

[pr00ne]

ORAC

Hear hear, OCTU type meself, though I would sound a word of caution, having been to the "Defence Academy" as a guest recently, where on earth would you put the additional studes? Shrivenham/Watchfield already has a diversity of units and roles, ALL RAF and RN officer training would be two massive additions.

What happned to Bracknell, is it still for sale or is it a housing estate?

[The Gorilla]

Cranwell to close?
Yeah right!!
Cranwell will always be THE last RAF base to close!!


:ok:

[ORAC]

.....and ALL RAF and RN officer training would be two massive additions.... not as large as you might think after Misters Brown and Hoon get through with the front line....

[Jacks Down]

I commend the DT for trying to keep defence in the public eye in the run up to Wednesday's cuts - sorry, restructuring - announcement but this story sounds like a rumour dressed up as news. For a start, exactly how much money would you save by closing down the RAFC and building a new one at Shrivenham? You could of course close down the whole station but then you'd need to re-house the Airman Aircrew training school, 45 and 55 Sqns, OASC, DSGT, P&SS, the Red Arrows (then again, maybe no need :) ),HQ Air Cadets, and of course the band and that place that delivers pizzas.

I have a feeling the kernel of truth behind it is that there is a proposal to merge RAF and RN engineering officer training at Shrivenham. This has been misinterpreted, willfully or otherwise. Let's hope that's all it is anyway! The Gorilla is right - when I was on IOT we were told Cranwell would be the last station to close, Akrotiri being the second to last.

The Telegraph's defence coverage has always been pants, I think this is just more of the same.

Standing by to consume headdress,

JD

[WE Branch Fanatic]

As this (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/2196.html) link demonstrates, boatwork and other practical nautical skills is a major part of naval training. How would this be done at Shrivenham?

Nautical skills are featuring more in training thse days, at HMS Raleigh the initial training of ratings has been changed to give less emphasis on kit and the like and a lot more emphasis on seamanship, boatwork and other practical stuff, in response to the operational needs of the Fleet.

[airborne_artist]

Nautical training will be delivered in land-locked Wiltshire using a PFI-provided simulator (the Seaman-sHIp Trainer (****))- which will be late, unable to provide the required throughput and only operate during office hours.

[tornstorm]

This sounds like a pre-leak to me so that when the cuts...sorry re-structuring is announced it will not seem as bad. Put out a wildly inaccurate rumour to displace attention from whats actually going to be sold off, closed, reorganised etc...
Either that or the DT getting themselves a little confused again. Well done to them though, keep defence cuts in the news or Joe public will forget about them, get what's actually going on into the public domain.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

The DT today reports that the Armed Forces need to make
" £1billion efficiency gains in logistics and procurement". Interesting thought, I wonder how long it will be before the MoD is expected to be self sufficent and make a profit each year.

Cranwell and Dartmouth to go. Is nothing sacred!? I suppose I could just about empathise with how this make would make sense on paper, but these are pretty radical proposals which will require some major doctrinal shifts from both the RN and RAF. For a start one course lasts a year and the other 6 months (give or take). When is the first purple Joint Officer Graduation ceremony to be held?

I hope this is just a far fetched, back of a fag packet proposal from some completely out of touch bean coutner who doesnt know their arse from their elbow.

What made me laugh the most was that Geoff Hoon, who is apparently the defence minister???? is to "disguise the full scale of the cuts by announcing them in at least 3 separate tranches" hmmmmm where have we heard that before? Sounds a bit like Typhoon to me.

Oh and by the way, they are not cuts, mearly a "rebalancing" of the Armed Forces:mad:

[Jimlad]

Possible merging of things here but anyway. Firstly what is Dartmouth? Its a maintenance nightmare thats what it is! Its old, its falling to bits and to be honest while nice, isnt terribly practical. It is essentially about one buildings worth of classrooms and then two or three buildings worht of cabins, surrounded by ancilliary buildings. Due to its listed status it isnt easy to keep shipshape.

I doubt few would mourn its loss.

However, whats this about RMCS? There is no room on site, there are no runways or boating facilities (apart from a rather fetching lake by the library!) and its run by Cranfield University and Kings College. I think they may be confusing it with somewhere else (I have my suspicions but not saying).

The way to do it is to build some modern accommodation, then some decent joint classrooms, and rejig the training program so that term one is beasting on land (as happens), do the boating on HMS BRISTOL, and combine it with BSSC as part of a discreet module of 4-5 weeks work, using the facilities there plus dockyard and do BSSC as well (as happens to a point already) and then send them to sea and do their final term on land.

Sad, but no real loss.

[Miss Kay Gridley]

JimLad, you're either not RN or you're an instructor there :)

I doubt there is an RN officer in the fleet who doesn't have some (possibly very small) sentimental thoughts about Dartmouth.

Where else would you go to get as fit as running up and down to Sandquay? What would be the challenge carrying those telegraph poles on the flat rather than up Cardiac Hill?

Slightly more seriously though, how many more parts of our History do we have to lose before enough is enough? We may all joke that the RAF have habits, that the Army has history, and that the RN has traditions but its true, and its part of what makes us all what we are.:sad:

[Jimlad]

"JimLad, you're either not RN or you're an instructor there"

RNR actually! So you're right, I'm not RN - I'm capable of doing more than one job :)

I guess my limited exposure to BRNC (some 6 weeks in total) means I have a more objective view than my colleagues at work...

[airborne_artist]

JimLad

RNR do a great job, but six weeks on the very short knife and fork course at BRNC does not give you much of a platform here, IMHO.

Also makes it unlikely that you have served as aircrew in the forces, I suspect....

[Si Clik]

'This wouldn't save money'

BRNC costs some £20m per year to the public purse and is falling apart around the seams.

£20m to pay for 300 students ....maths anyone?

Additionally the place is falling apart - if you had seen it recently you'd know what I mean.

Cost to refurbish >£50m

If I were collocating training I'd move the Officer's into Raleigh _ plenty of real estate and next to the sea to boot.

Justify it ...mmmm. Well you'd have some high ranking help.:suspect: surely?

[fagin's goat]

BRNC Dartmouth awards a PhD in nostalgia... ask anyone who has marched up that hill and stayed aboard for the prescribed period! Sad if it goes but Tony B and his lot do not deal in history (let alone our Maritime history). Dartmouth and Cranwell will face the axe and the next generation of RN/RAF officers will probably be trained together before moving to appropriate portacabins near sea/runways (HMS Raleigh/RAF EasyLife in rural England). Ethos? This is a new world order, is it not?

[Archimedes]

Well, I look forward to accommodating students under my desk and in the bottom draw of my filing cabinet - since there's *- all accommodation available for them...

[Navy_Adversary]

Whatever decisions are announced on Wednesday, 'Buff' will be away on his Jollies on Thursday when Parliament is in recess.

He'll probably be back from Tuscany by late September should you need to ask him any questions!

[Proletarian]

Given the future size, shape and employment of the UK armed forces, it would make sense to combine all officer training in one purple establishment. The current story may just be an ill informed rumour, but the fact is - it would make sense. Go back 20 years and I doubt anyone could have predicted the JSCSC at Shrivenham. However, it works and makes sense. Nevertheless, the would be no point of the RN and RAF combining, with the brown jobs remaining at Sandhurst - close all three or none at all.

IMHO sooner or later some form of combined inital officer training will be introduced, it's only a matter of when, not if. Forget traditions, as usual it will all come down to simple economics.

[Jimlad]

"JimLad

RNR do a great job, but six weeks on the very short knife and fork course at BRNC does not give you much of a platform here, IMHO.

Also makes it unlikely that you have served as aircrew in the forces, I suspect...."

Completely correct, nor would I claim that my part time pussers experience counts for much beyond some limited experience in my own small branch and plenty of time on FTRS in the big world of jointery. However, I do have some very valid professional links to the aircrew world (this forum also applies to those of us who give you the reason to leave the ground) and like to keep abreast of current developments/rumours, as I feel this site beats Pravda (sorry defencenet) anyday of the week :E

[Argus]

Agree with all of the sentimentality about BRNC.

The voice of Lieutenant Frank Trickey RN (as he then was), Parade Gunner, still haunts me:
"Exmouth Senior Divison, centre rank 13, 'old yer head up. Stick your chest out. If you haven't got a chest, go to slops and draw one"!
and
"I earned my rank. I didn't go to Gieves and buy it"!

[Blacksheep]

After what happened to Halton, who cares?

[Mr C Hinecap]

Prole

Hush. We are discreetly different forces that attract different people. Most of the time we also do different jobs. You'll be calling for the same uniform next. Some of our training is the same, some of it similar. However, I joined the RAF and proud of it. I made a positive decision to join it and not either of the others. The changes (erosion) would have to be pretty big to put us all in together at that stage - it would just end up as 3 seperate training facilities co-located or (more likely) the Army would bully us all into doing it their way! :(

[FJJP]

Sooner or later some fool is going to prove conclusively and financially that it makes sense to combine all of the Forces into one.

And then split them up 30 years later...

[FEBA]

The Royal Navy seem to be getting the rough end of the stick again after the loss of Greenwich now Dartmouth. Since Cranwell was a RN base (Daedalus) perhaps it should be combined to provide OTC for both services.

I've been giving some thought as to what to do with CWL when it closes, I'll have York house for the Egg Banjo Club!

[propulike]

IOT at Cranwell may go elsewhere, but I'd be amazed if the station itself was closed. Let's face it, IOT can be done anywhere where there is a running track, somewhere to erect tripods and some classrooms. The training though is DIFFERENT for Navy, Air Force (and Army). I don't care how joint operations get, the operating varies between the services and not because we're trying to be different! We do need to know what the other chaps are doing, we don't need to be able to do their job for them.

Perhaps this is just so that senior orficers can refurbish CHOM and use it themselves because it looks nice :p

[fawkes]

No establishment is a holy cow: the die in a ditch issue here is service identity/esprit de corps. I suspect that the defence Training review is looking at the Lympstone model which seems to work well for the Booties. Plenty of spare capacity alongside depleted recruit classes in single service training establishments, with the Army, as ever, insisting on keeping orficers and chaps apart - pobably the price of accepting further Regimental mergers/losing so many tanks.

Much of these "historical" issues are really quite recent - late Victorian say. BRNC 1905. I wonder what the outcry was like when Confidential Reporting came in, not to mention the abolition of purchasing commissions.

BRNC and Cranwell are not important: the battle of Britain and the Battle of the Atlantic are. Every Establishment that closes is painful, but the service survives. The traditions of fighting and winning agaisnt odds are what we are about. Often enemies have included the prliament and the Treasury: ther's a fine continuing tradition!

[Gainesy]

Good user name; once knew a guy called that...
:)

[Miss Kay Gridley]

BRNC and Cranwell aren't important?!?! :*

I may be mistaken but aren't they both listed buildings? There is little enough money spent on our listed buildings as it is. At least they are both still serving a useful purpose and as such get looked after.

The other thing to remember is that Dartmouth is partly funded by all the international students we have (I think one of them pays for about three or four of us! I know when I was there a lot of them were sent to Dartmouth because Daddy had been etc. How many would not bother if we move? How much more expensive would it become to train our own new officers?

Dartmouth, Cranwell and Sandhurst are more than just old buildings. They are symbols of the best of our armed forces, or are percieved that way around the world. What damage would it cause to HM Armed Forces Plc to get rid of them?

[fawkes]

MKG

I would be sorry to see these fine buildings lost to large hotel chains but Dartmouth and Cranwell ARE just old buildings. Greenwich was special and that is being looked after by budgets other than Defence. TLBs simply cannot afford to continue to haemorrhage money for non core activities. I am as proud of our architectural heritage as the next man, but let Golden Brown pay for their upkeep.

BRNC and Cranwell may have a social cachet for foreign officer cadets but some of our greatest aviators and sailors learnt their trade living in accommodation hulks and nissen huts (not to mention under hedges). we cannot match the first class Military Universities enjoyed by some of our NATO allies. Unless we are prepared to invest in reaching that sort of standard, then we must make our training the best for our own people, using whatever establishments we need to.

Listed buildings are an incubus. Spend the money on more training places at sea and more training flying hours.

[FEBA]

Some may be interested to reflect on how many of our once active military bases are now museums, one is a base and a museum. At ths rate all of the armed forces of the UK may end up as exhibits in museums for our children to visit during history trips, once they have been completely axed.
:(

[JessTheDog]

I heard something similar from a reliable source at the end of last year, although it was in reference to Sandhurst only. If it was not for this (secondary source!) corroboration I would take this wish a large pinch of salt due to the points raised regarding access to seaborne training, lack of a runway and lack of the extensive miliary training areas that surround Sandhurst.

My early memories of Cranwell were coloured (light blue?) by the aircraft activity on the other side of the road and this helps reinforce the characteristic ethos of each service. Compare this with the Royal Air force patches mentioned in another thread!

We have this supposed motto in our service called "RISE" for respect, integrity, ethos and service. The ethos element is being eroded by those military, political and civil servants above us who see such sacrifices as expedient to their careers. I therefore find myself losing respect at a rapid rate. How about "Aquiescence, Ridicule, Self-interest, Expedience" as a motto, with a suitable acronym!

[Si Clik]

Since no one listened the first time I'll say it again.

Including foreign dosh.

BRNC costs £20m per year.

Upgrade cost to current standards >£70m

These are measures put up by serving officer's and published due to serving officers leaking it.

My guess - don't bet on it.

:D

[Miss Kay Gridley]

Fawkes

I agree that a lot of our best people have learnt their stuff in the field.

As to haemorrhaging mpney, while the MOD can still "afford" to waste as much money as it does on £1000 chairs etc, personally I feel that it is a weak argument for getting rid of the Colleges.

Not to mention that by having the three separate, we maintain our individual service identities. Much as I appreciate the need for jointery, we are still slightly different people doing quite different jobs. It would be a shame to lose that.

[Oggin Aviator]

BRNC costs £20m per year.
Quality dont come cheap.

[Capt H Peacock]

How long till Tony decides that the Queen’s Commission is an outmoded and class dominated concept, and discriminates against candidates from less privileged backgrounds and those who suffered a state education.

The oath of allegiance will be replaced with an affirmation of loyalty to the Labour Party.

The railways are now controlled by the Government again as they work toward the common ownership of the means of supply and production. The bourgeois middle class are being taxed till the pips squeak and their decadent pensions plans raided as part of the redistribution of wealth. The unions have unprecedented power to enable the emancipation of the working classes.

I’m beginning to wonder who won the Cold War? :{

[MightyGem]

The only mention of closures in today's speech, was RAF Coltishall by 2006.

[Jacks Down]

The answer to this thread is confirmed as 'no'!

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Mr Hoon was just this minute asked to confirm whether or not Dartmouth would be closed or not, he claimed he knew nothing about the contents on Mondays DT article and that although there was a defence training review ongoing, there had been no conclusions.

hmmmmmmm