Check List policy at Flying Schools.

[de La Valette]

Having retired from flying big jets, I am now engaged and enjoying teaching ab-initio students. I am quite surprised at the blind use of checklists used by students for everything from start to shutdown. It is clear to me that they use checklists (most of which are lengthy, illogical, and very expensive in terms of engine running time) as a crutch to tell them what to do next. I even had one chap who did not know how to shut down an engine because he had left his checklist behind.

While there is a place for intelligently designed check lists, it appears that no in the flying training industry appears to teach students to use the well known "Scan first ", system of doing a series of drills by heart in a logical order, followed by then confirming the actions are completed by reference to a short read-out list. The scan may well cover many facets of cockpit duties that are not necessarily required to be printed on a check list. By insisting that a student carry out a panel scan for all drills BEFORE a look at the confirming checklist, it gets the student well ahead of the aircraft, rather than blind adherence to a lengthy read-out series of checks. It also gives the student great confidence in his ability to remember vital actions. It is also very useful in the long term if he or she gets an airline job, where cockpit scan system is the policy. Any thoughts? Hey! A stuff up - I think I have sent this thread twice! Sorry.

[JJflyer]

I agree...
Use of flow checks, backed up by checklist,
seems to have worked for me...
You mention that some students totally rely on the checklist as to tell them what to do next.
I have run into that here in US.
The school I went for flight training is very big on "professional" use of checklist.
That means that you bring the list up for :
-Walk around
-before start
-before start
-before taxi
-taxi
-before take-off
-climb
-cruise
-decend
-before landing
-after landing
-before engine shut

School insists that you bring the list up every time... works great in a Cessna 172
when you are barely doing 110 kts.
But in real life, like single-pilot IFR in a fast turbine like the PA31T Cheyenne, you dont have the time to pull out the list every time... FLOWCHECK...

JJ

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Checklists are one of the best tools that the CFIs have to standardise their operations for staff and students.

The airborne ones like BUMFH, FREDA etc which have easy mnemonics should of course be learned by memory.

I have seen students who have been told they have to learn the pre-take off checklist off by heart freeze at the run-up bay because they can't remember everything, and then taxi onto the runway without the full-and-free check, seatbelts done up, hatches secure or some such other legal requirement.

It shouldn't take any longer if you are using a checklist or memory, and what's the hurry anyway?

Plus we are all familiar with the master-switch-left-on-all-night-because-they-didn't-use-the-shutdown-checklist scenario! Grrrr!

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[Hugh Jarse]

Trouble is that too many flying schools get students to use it as a "do" list, rather than a checklist.

I've always taught students to do their drills geographically, (from memory), then confirm they've been completed by the checklist. Not all items are physically covered in the checklist, but are pretty obvious if overlooked - ie "MASTER SWITCH - ON".

Don't forget that most modern checklists come in the form of "Anti-Litigation", thanks to the good old U S of A.

DlV: You have the opportunity of a lifetime - put some logic back into the training industry :)

[Oktas8]

It seems that staff & students at my flying school either a) use the checklist blindly or b) don't use it at all. I must admit, when I'm in a hurry (quite often), I fall into the latter category... oooops, naughty I know.

Is there anyone out there whose students do actually use the list as a checklist and not as a dolist?

O8 - not an FI... yet.

PS-
Hugh - you beat me to it by 3 minutes. Well, so there is at least one person out there who does it "properly". :) O8

[This message has been edited by Oktas8 (edited 09 August 1999).]

[de La Valette]

Interesting replies. To CFI. I tend to avoid mnemonics, because they are a trifle kindergartenish, half the time students need a mnemonic to remember a long mnemonic. If cockpit drills were kept to a sensible short list of vital actions, then you would not have to invent a mnemonic. In fact, I see no requirement for a written read and do checklist in small training aircraft, for the very fact that it always becomes a crutch. If proper use of that lovely term "Airmanship" is applied, then two thirds of the superfluous bulldust contained in typical flying school check lists could be eliminated, allowing the hapless student to learn by rote the very few ESSENTIAL type specific checks.
Much can be learned from the past. Consider the following extracts from Pilots Notes Tiger Moth taught to thousands of wartime trainee pilots: TAKE OFF: Elevator Trim-neutral, Throttle Friction Nut-Tighten, Mixture Control -Rich Position, Fuel Cock on tank and contents sufficient for flight, Slots Unlocked, Flying Controls-Tested.
DOWN WIND LEG: Fuel. Sufficient for another circuit, Mixture -Rich, Slots-Unlocked.

After the war, we had Chipmunks. Same simple drills. Even the Lincoln four engine heavy bomber (designed to be flown single pilot) had similar style simple vital action drills for take-off: Trims-Set, Props: Fine Pitch, Fuel: Contents, Master cocks on Fuel Pumps on, Slow Running Cut-off's on, Flaps-One third down, Auto pilot clutches IN. and Final landing checks were simple and concise: Fuel -on, Brakes- off and pressures, Wheels- Down and Locked, Props -2850 set, Flaps-as required.

Keep all drills short and concise, and it becomes easy for a student to learn the checks. Check lists that call for wheels down and locked on a fixed gear aircraft are a classic example of teaching a superfluous drill. Never did that on Tigers or Chippies. Why is it that students are regularly taking 15 to 18 hours to go solo in simple aircraft like a 150, and not even a tail-dragger? Is it poor instruction, or precious time wasting over several minutes per trip carrying out a litany of read and do checklists? Look at log books of yesteryear, and few civilian students went solo over 9 hours. The lift off and landing speeds of a Tiger and a C150 are practically the same, and the only real changes are flaps and carb heat. I must admit, of course, that written checklists are certainly very useful money spinners to flying schools who charge the same rate whether the aircraft is on the ground or airborne. Personally, I would prefer to spend my money up in the air and enjoying the view, rather than mouthing off mnemonics and head in the cockpit on the ground...

[Black Jake]

I've flown with both civilian flying schools, who do everything religiously by checklists, and with the RAF who insist on routine checks from memory (in training aircraft at least). The former claim they do everything this way to ensure they don't forget anything, and to cater for a change of type (c152/c172/Pa34/Pa38 etc) - but despite this even experienced instructors/pilots often manage to miss checks. Its amazing to watch an instructor with hundreds of hours on type work through the C152 checklist as though its alien to him! The latter demand a thorough understanding of the systems and checks but mistakes/omissions still occasionally happen. The answer? Where has my fence gone? I need somewhere to sit.

[MaxAOB]

;)
gentlemen I am pleased by the professional answers you have all given and as professional aviators all are valid, however my student today - 63 yr old retired confectionary packer who can only afford 1 lesson a fortnight would be lost without her trusty checklist. It may become a do list but let us not forget most of our students are not and will not become professionals and need guidance. There is a big difference and I am sure that when teaching 19 year old thruster on his way to bigger things we try to instill a more professional approach - especially as he is still young enough to know how to spell Bernoulli??** :)

[de La Valette]

To Maxaob. Thats my whole point. Quids on that the checklist you have given the old lady to lean on, is far too long, and she has no hope of coping without it as a crutch. Coax her into recalling only the essential items. A six item before take off drill should be easy for any dummy to learn by rote. A three item downwind drill is not impossible. I have seen downwind checklists of amazing length in a Warrior or 150. Why check "hatches" downwind? You will soon know if a door is open by the noise. Why check masters and mags and primers downwind. if the master is off, you have no gauges or radio. If the mags are off, you are up the proverbial creek. if the primer is unlocked, it would have been obvious earlier. Why squeeze the brake pedals downwind? If you already have a leak, you will only piddle valuable hydraulic oil overboard. Best conserve it for the landing. Why check gear down and locked in a fixed gear aircraft? After all, you don't say gear up and locked, green lights out as an after take off check in a fixed gear type!!

It is the myriad of superfluous drills that gets students in a tizzy. And that is because flying schools fondly believe that if real pilots flying big jets all use checklists, it must be a Good Thing. Ergo - lets copy the professionals and have all these pretty coloured checklists. Anyway all it sounds so cool - all this check, check, check stuff.... Check lists in GA are a cottage industry like CRM, and desk top publishers make good money out of them
My students (flying once week) seem to go solo in around 6 to 10 hours dual. That is picking nice calm weather for each trip. No checklists at all - just airmanship and half a dozen VITAL actions. It really works.

[MaxAOB]

DLV. Yes, I sympathise with your argument and some aircraft have the essential checks written in the cockpit. We are teaching people to fly any aircraft though, and whilst I am sure that the forthcoming differences training should highlight if a checklist is required I fear that we would start to introduce a standardisation problem across the whole training spectrum. At least the downwind cx are reasonably standard for everyone, when I do checkouts for new members it is one of the few things that most people do seem to have been taught the same way. - Unless of course your ex navy and then its My Friend Fred Has Hairy Balls!!
Good discussion points and I look forward to other instructors comments. Maybe we can change things? ;)

[BEagle]

dlV - 100% right about the pointless complexity of some light ac checklists!! Whatever happened to the K - I - S - S concept??!!

[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 10 August 1999).]

[redsnail]

Today I did the "internal" checks for the Bandit. I used a scan and flow method, then simply ran the checklist to ensure I did every thing. Piece of cake.
However, I have seen new CPLers in the Kimberley absolutely helpless because they misplaced their checklist. Strewth, I wondered how they managed to get to work with out a checklist...
K-I-S-S. Learn what you need! Know what you need!

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reddo
skid, slide, scrape, bash, then...silence.

[Hugh Jarse]

When it all boils down to it folks, it's "Tailoring the training to suit your customer's needs". A quality found in all good Instructors. :)

[4dogs]

Folks,

I am with Huge on this.

The instructor must be satisfied that the student will survive on first and subsequent solos. Flying the aircraft safely is the first aim. Driving the aircraft into the ground doing a contrived checklist is undesirable, particularly if you happen to be on board. If the emphasis on the checklist is excessive, learning to fly will take second spot - now that is the tail wagging the dog.

My thoughts:

Aviate, navigate, communicate and administrate - in that priority.

The checklist is your penultimate defence - airmanship is your first one or two and final defence.

"Read and do" provides you with a crutch to begin with and buys you some time to cope with an often unfriendly environment. However, it is slow, competes with learning to fly and costs you money. It will not get you to first solo because you cannot afford the real time distraction from aviating.

"Memory" is an essential sign that you are on top of the task and won't die if the checklist blows out the window. Low error recall is a prerequisite to solo.

"Scan and check" is both efficient and effective: scanning is quick and can be paced around aviating, while running the checklist is effective because it provides a back-up defence to your memory. Being able to run a no-nonsense checklist after a low error scan without detracting from aviating demonstrates a suitability for solo and further skill enhancement.

"How you get the best value for your money is up to you: I will do everything reasonable to facilitate your self-improvement - I cannot make you better than you want to make yourself. The pace is yours to make."




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Stay Alive,

[email protected]

[Sidney Hawker]

I totally agree with Charlie fox and Max.
I fly a turbo prop for a living and have approx 2000 hours instructing experience. At work we use it as a check list not a do list. But we are experienced pilots as are the instructors that are teaching said students. But a low houred student needs a safety net so that it minimises the chance of lining up without flaps set etc (although I have seen it done even with the check list.
I believe: Check lists if stationary on the ground, memory items if on the move, either on the ground or in the air.