Flicks Rolls - Oh Joy!

[paulo]

Well I got a go at these today. Didn't expect it - it was 'just' going to be an aeros checkout. Insructor offered it up, did a demo, then had a I go... blooomin marvellous. I'm still grinning. :D

Nuts though - I particularly like the way you can feel the spin accelerating when you hoik back after booting. Stopping them in anything other than a shambles of all three control surfaces... hmm, bit more tricky... I'm guessing that takes a bit more practice.

Any tips welcome. I was just booting opposite rudder and then faffing around with stick to calm the insanity. :}

I was sooo disappointed when, taking a mate up later, he was starting to feel :yuk: just as I was ready to demo.

[John Farley]

Flick rolls are started by.....

So flick rolls are stopped by.....

You fill in the blanks

[TonyR]

taking a mate up later, he was starting to feel just as I was ready to demo

Are you sure your ready to DEMO?

I tend to think of two types of pilots, those who I would let my Daughter fly with and those I would not.

From your post I would have to put you in the "would not" camp

Tony

[paulo]

John - Thanks. Doh!

I'll be back to the text books tonight. I've read and re-read flicks to death but was never happy about learning them 'from scratch' given the critical entry speed and the inherent issues with airframe stress.

TonyR - Where do you fly from?

[TonyR]

paulo,

I am sorry, I was very harsh on you not knowing you.

I just wanted to make you stop and think before you do areos with mates etc.

I'm guessing that takes a bit more practice.
That bit, followed by telling us you were taking mates up would scare most of us.

I fly form BFS and from home

Best wishes

Tony

[BRL]

Well, for what it is worth, I have been up with Paul doing aeros in a Robin. It was something else. Paul was brilliant too, he must have sensed my nervousness and really put me at ease in the cockpit and explained everything we were doing. I loved it, just like his mate though, I too felt a bit sick after about 40 mins and Paul let me fly us home to take my mind off it. Paul was superb and I would certainly let my daughter go up with him anytime.
Never judge a book by its cover and all that :D

[TonyR]

From the post it sounded like he was going to do with a mate something he had just done for the first time a couple of hours earlier with an instructor.

I would not be comfortable with that.

Tony

[stiknruda]

Paulo,

Can you answer JF's question?

I find that in the Pitts, it is pretty essential to unload the elevator as soon as the auto-rotation starts or you tend to bury the roll and then leave yourself with a low energy state upon the exit. If you unload then you tend to roll faster as the nose does not scribe such a large circumference circle AND you exit with more energy.

If you are having a problem stopping on heading - because it goes round so quickly, you can either flick to the right as going with the engine is less dramatic - or you can do it at lower power settings until you can stop wings level on hdg, then incrementally do it with more power until it you can catch it at your aerobatic power config. You should also try it on the up and down 45s and from inverted - read on.....

Once you are happy flicking then the you really ought to try an avalanche or Porteous loop. Loop with a higher than normal entry speed... at the eleven o'clock position, stick right back, full left rudder, as soon as she starts to flick, stick forward to where it was prior to you pulling it right back. After 360 degrees inverted to inverted, full opposite rudder to stop the roll, rudder neutral and deftly and gently ease the aircraft around the second half of the loop! Great fun.

Neil Williams describes a flick going pear-shaped in his book, Aerobatics, but in all honesty I have never managed to duplicate it without gross mishandling. However Neil probably did tens of thousands where I have just done a few hundred!

Outside (-ve G) flicks are also possible - you just need to push rather than pull to initiate. Not sure if the Robin is cleared for those, though.

TonyR - let's hear more about your daughter :)


Stik

[TonyR]

Shes 13, and her mother has her well warned to stay away from pilots.

she can fly the Rallye though :ok:

[stiknruda]

Good one, TonyR;)

Just so happened that tonight I was asked to fly a different Pitts -very similar to mine but in a boring '70s timewarp colour scheme, BUT it had a Sensenich metal prop rather than the lightweight German wooden stick that I generally sit behind.

Up to FL nosebleed we trundled at 2000fpm.

Played with spins, loops, rolls and stall turns. On the stall turn I could see the effect of a heavier prop...

I then began to run through some flicks, now the prop really does make a difference - with the engine really quite docile. Against it - wow what a ride!

At 105mph, with 2550rpm straight and level I flicked, I held in full rudder and unloaded elevator and she went again and aga... 2.5 revolutions - she flew away inverted S&L.

I did 5 or 6 Avalanches, trying to get her to do two revolutions at the top but failing dismally - probably my coordination rather than the aeroplane's inability to perform them from a starting speed of 150mph.

The good burghers of Southwold really don't know how lucky I am:ok:


Stik

[paulo]

I'm not sure I can answer John's question properly - it's a figure where the inputs arent really the same (opposed) as the recovery - by the books at least. The cheap answer is "it's a horizontal spin" but a few don't agree with that (Cassidy case in point).

Next time out I'll definitely make a point of doing the unload, and not doing the unload, to get a clear idea of what it looks like right and wrong.

Thanks stik for ideas on where to go next. My spatial awareness is a bit reduced inverted, so I suspect I'll hold off avalanches until the next dual. But I'll look forward to it nonetheless. I *am* still grinning on the regular flick! Bag loads of fun, and even in the madness of it all, relatively worry free in the can-it-go-wrong? stakes.

[stiknruda]

Flick rolls are started by.....

So flick rolls are stopped by.....


I'll have a go.

Flick rolls are started by a stalling a wing

So flick rolls are stopped by unstalling that wing


Maybe I am being too simplistic, John?

Accelerated stall - both wings stall, rudder is fed in causing the opposite wing to accelerate and therefore generate lift. The wing on the same side as the applied rudder generates no lift - so the outside wing comes over the top.


Stik

[John Farley]

Stik

I'd say you were spot on....but you know that!

[TheAerosCo]

Stik mentions about flicking left and right. Once you are happy with the technique, I would recommend always practising both ways so you don't become handed. Apart from the satisfaction of being able to do it properly, this can become particularly important if you are involved with competitions or displaying flying. The flick will displace the aircraft laterally and can have a marked effect on the positioning of the aircraft - so if you can flick both ways you can clearly use this to your advantage!

TAC

[djpil]

Different techniques are required to flick (or snap) different types. Important to find the "sweet spot" for the elevator. I've never flown the Robin so these notes specifically don't apply to that. Some types just flick so nicely and others just don't do them nicely or require a particular technique to get them to work at all.
Neil's pear-shaped flick was in a Stampe, which I also have not flown but offers would be welcomed. The Pitts is one of the best flickers there is (not counting the S-2B which takes a special method and you need to hold your mouth the right way as well).
First time I flew an S-1S I couldn't do an ordinary loop without stalling it so stuck to avalanches after that.

The Cessna Aerobat is another nice flicker - hold the yoke back all the way around; wind in full aileron in direction of roll if you like, but only after it has started to roll. To stop - use everything - a double shift of the yoke from side to side(i.e. aileron) is needed at the end to stop the wobble and stop neatly on line.

stik - did you try hauling back on the stick as you came upright with those avalanches? - it needs some persuasion to go around a second time at the top of a loop.

[stiknruda]

djpil,

Did I try and re-stall it whilst erect after the first rotation? No..., err I'll try that next time I fly her.

I naively assumed that because she went round 2 and a bit times from S&L that she'd do the same at the top of a loop. Sitting here on terra firma, I now realise that the assumption was pretty stupid as in the first instance I was accelerating through 105mph and at the top of the loop, I'm already decellerating prior to any control inputs and am probably slower than 105.

To be honest I have no idea what my top of loop speed is - it has never occurred to me look - I do know that a 4G pull at 140mph will give me 700' height gain! Something else to do next flight. All these new things to try/record, never seem to be stuck for fun things to do when the wx permits.

Oh to be in Oz!

As an aside, I correct in thinking that very early aeroplanes were only capable of being rolled by flicking it because on teir own the ailerons just did not have sufficient authority?

Stik

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Dunno about that, Stik, but this thread is making me well jealous. The dear old Chippy, lovely gentle aerobatter and magnificent bimbling machine that she is, is fobidden the joys of flicking:{ .

SSD

[TonyR]

paulo:

Which aircraft do you fly?

Here are some notes I was given a few years ago. This is what the judges were looking for.

Flick or snap rolls

1. The aircraft MUST pitch positive or negative (to initiate a stalled condition in both wings) and immediately yaw (to keep one wing unstalled) at the entry to the maneouvre - this is essential.
2. The initial 'nod' and yaw should be followed immediately by rapidly accelerating auto-rotation.

3. After the correct angle of rotation the roll should cease abruptly without any aileron-roll correction, and the aircraft should continue along an axis closely parallel to the extended pre-roll axis.


If the stall is inadequate the aircraft will fly a 'barrelled' roll with both wings providing lift, and considerable sideways translation from the starting axis is likely - this MUST be given a zero mark. Don't forget also to check that the maneouvre you see is positive or negative - whichever one the sequence calls for. It is sometimes difficult with the latest generation of aerobatic aircraft to see the pitch movement. For a given change in pitch, the tail will probably move further than the nose, so look for a tail movement away from the cockpit for a positive flick and to the cockpit for a negative figure.

Tony

[paulo]

Tony - It's a Robin 2160i

My instructor was teaching yaw (just) before pitch, but your notes concur with Alan's book, so that's what I'll try on the next outing.

Stik - Interesting to hear you do that too, i.e. go out and try stuff out and make mental notes of the results. I find it really rewarding - in fact my list of 'things to try' is currently growing quicker than I can tick them off thanks to some great debate and advice here. :ok:

[TonyR]

If you don't pitch up first you can't stall, I am well out of practice but from what I remember it must be a 1-2---3, pitch, yaw & unload the elevator.

I'd rather not talk about types as flicks are not allowed in a lot of aircraft, but some Cessnas were very good until someone told us "they could not do that"

Stay safe

Tony

[djpil]

The Airtourer is one type which doesn't flick consistently well, in my opinion, very easy for it to stop autorotating part way through and lose a lot of height.

[Pitts2112]

Stik,

I'm somewhere near the stall at the top of a loop, typical entry speed 160 mph and 4 G pull. That gives me a pretty big loop and I've started to tighten them up with a lower entry speed and not easing back pressure quite so early approaching the apex. Speed at top is in the same region, though. I know this from early days because my first attempts at loops ended up teaching me more about torque rolls than loops. In fact, I one time sat through a lovely gentle torque roll that the airplane did all by itself!

So, back to the flick roll issue, you're likely to be way below 105mph at the top of the loop and with very low energy but lots of drag from the flick. I believe it's extra speed at the entry (unloading and throttle setting being equal) that will give you more rolls, but I may be wrong on that.

Pitts2112

[stiknruda]

P12

The only time I have stalled out recently was when you and I weer playing a couple of months ago - I put that down to not concentrating 100% on the maneouver and being distracted by your proximity - formation line abreast loops.

I intend to fly tomorrow sometime so will go and loop and see how sensitive she is at the top - perhaps try to slow roll inv to inv and see how low an entry speed I can do it with.

No banter - but do be aware that our aeroplanes are subtly different - your prop is far coarser (as is your language) and your wing gives less drag erect but will require additional fwd stick inverted. Oh yes and it looks like a Dulux Ad from the 50's. Magnolia, that will look loveley, my dear!


Stik

[Chimbu chuckles]

Those guys with Pitts Specials have you seen the article in Australian Aviation on the Zuraxxx Cartwheel in the latest model Pitts?

Stall turn with 540 degres of rotation...sounds well cool!!!!

Is it possible in earlier, less powerfull, models?

Is it purely a horse power issue or do the various aerodynamic refinements make the difference?

Been a long while since I did serious aeros...have to get back into it one day...maybe one of these days I'll sell the Bonanza and by a Pitts:) :E

What I'm currently working on is a 'routine' in the 767 Sim at the end of each 6 monthly recurrent. The aileron roll down the runway starting at 50 feet is easy but the pull up, steep turn right, Derry roll and flight idle gliding 270 while configuring needs some work:E Overshot the centerline last time a got into some interesting pitch coupling with full flap/full speedbrake while steep turning left then right to regain at a few hundred feet...cartwheeled in:uhoh:

I'll give myself some more room next time...that'll get it sorted:}

The 767's roll rate at 330kIAS is bordering on spirited...lotsa fun:ok:

Couple of the Checkies recently pulled the wings off after a stall turn...thank god it's just a sim:E :}

Chuckles

[djpil]

Stall turn with 540 degres of rotation
I've seen an S-2B do this - from the ground and also from the rear seat. When I was in the aeroplane the density height would've been around 12,000 ft so power from the IO-540 would've been about what Stik would get down lower.
The rotation is not in the vertical plane at all, but still a neat manoeuvre.

[Chimbu chuckles]

No this manouver is definately in the vertical...that's 540 degrees of rotation around the normal axis.

Chuck.

[Justiciar]

I thought I was beginning to understand aerobatics until I read this thread:confused:

I guess it will all be clear one day:{

[Pitts2112]

J-

Aerobatics aren't to be understood so much as experienced! Get out there with a competent instructor and have a couple of goes. It's amazing how quickly you begin to understand the maneuvers and how to retain your orientation when you try it!

But be careful! Unusual attitudes and aerobatics can become highly addictive. Once you've tried it, you may never be satisfied with straight and level again!!

P2112