IHC!!

[BEagle]

I've just read on another thread, that an instructor was 'nearly sacked for smashing a strobe light while teaching taxying'. Why should any employer not be outraged at the attiude of an employee who seems to think that £80 at least of damage is such an apparently trivial affair!! And why did you not take control BEFORE damaging your employer's aircraft?

[capt beeky]

Ive never bent anything yet, there but for the grace of.....

Sounds like beagle was an abused child. Must be a wind up or he had to pay for the strobe.

[BEagle]

Thank you for your erudite and professional contribution to this thread, Capt Beeky. My concern is at the attitude of those who consider that damaging their employer's property is a trivial matter. Flight Instructors have a responsibility to set the standards to which their students should aspire - instructing is not just a way of passing on a couple of hundred hours of accumulated wisdom whilst waiting to join an airline. And that damage may not be so trivial - remember what happened to that Robin pilot who thought that his slight brush against a hay bale at Kemble was of little consequence? Or were you still in short pants at the time?

[ILSNDBVOR]

BEagle, you make me seem as pure as Mother Theresa, keep it uo old boy :)

If you are CFS or even ex-CFS you should know there is no such thing as a 'Flight Instructor' in this glorious land we are adorned Flying Instructors, much better name anyway, leave it to the colonials with their new fangled ideas.

WWW, do not listen to this chap, obviously has no idea what it is like in the real world.

Toodle pip old beans, chin chin.

[BEagle]

ILSNDBVOR, have you ever heard of JAR-FCL?? Or even bothered to attend the SRG road shows on the subject?? Well, whereas CFS made me a Qualified Flying Instructor, the JAR-FCL term is 'Flight instructor - aeroplane' or FI(A). First take the plank from thine own eye, mouth or other orifice!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am not a great pilot. I am not a great flying instructor. I am pretty average and also pretty new to this game in terms of hours (if not years).

I operate at a very small and confined airfield. I was actually teaching the student how to taxi and was pattering on about not getting too close to that hangar wall when I taxied into it.

Now I had already jumped on the brakes and it was the mildest of taps that simply shattered the (non functioning) bulb. Obviously its all my fault - no bones about that. Stupid error and frankly embarassing. I've sat in the bar and pounded on about there being no excuse for taxi accidents myself in years gone by.

I was threatened with the sack and am now paying for the repair with ten hours docked from this months pay packet.

I was not aware that I had a cavalier attitude to damaging the aircraft. I try to remain pragmatic about it. An instructor at my school flew an aircraft into a mountain a few months back with the loss of three lives. Gives you a little perspective that.

Congrats on your unblemished career, I envy you.

Kindest Regards

WWW



[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 08 August 1999).]

[BEagle]

WWW - Firstly, my sympathies to those bereaved after your late colleague's accident.
Whilst I'm certain that you didn't mean to taxy into a hangar and I'm sure that you probably learned about when to take control the hard way, I think that it's grossly unfair of your employer to dock your pay in such a way - are their aircraft insured?. The original tone of your other thread made it seem that you thought that the damaged strobe light didn't matter because it was already u/s. The point is that ANY 'slight' damage could conceal significant structural damage. However, if your employer starts fining people in this manner, then no-one is ever going to dare to mention any unfortunate error in the future - which is FAR more dangerous. Most of us have hides thick enough to resist some choice Anglo-Saxon (or Celtic) invective, but being hit in the pocket is simply not on!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well of course that is the problem. Having previously flown RAF aircraft for flying training I know what a truly professional outfit is like to work for. Unfortunately here in my civvy world flying school I knew full well that I was likely to be shouted at, sworn at, chastised in front of students, possibly sacked and definitely fined for my error. Indeed this turned out to be the case.

Knowing also that the damage was unlikely to be noticed and that the lights were u/s and had been for several months on most of the aircraft and that replacement was unlikely after reporting just where is my motivation to report said incident?

Cowboy or what?

I just dream of flying under and AOC - the day cannot come quickly enough.

WWW

[mayday]

WWW

I think its f***ing outrageous that you are being charged for the damage. Flying is not a risk free zone and employers know this and budget and insure accordingly, what would have happened if you'd totalled it in the hedge at the end of your postage stamp sized airfield? Three years free work?

For your own benefit and for that of those who follow, I strongly urge you to resist paying.

[ILSNDBVOR]

BEagle, are you a complete idiot or just an apprentice? I was talking about CFS 'Flying Instructors'. I think my understanding of JAR is probably greater than yours as I work for the 'company'. I take back my friendly banter to you, you have a strange grasp on reality, maybe you should get out more.

WWW, good on you, your friends on here knew exactly what you were refering to regarding your original posting.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

From an employers point of view...OK so you smashed a strobe light. They aint cheap, but hey we all make mistakes. As long as people own up it doesn't have to be a drama. All bingles have to be reported without fear of retribution! The last thing you need is cover ups.

However a few weeks ago one of my wingtip strobes got smashed, my engineer witnessed it happening and yet the hirers totally denied it. Surprise, they can't find aeroplanes to hire so easily now. Grrrr.



------------------

[Capt Claret]

Weasley old chap, it's outrageous that you have to pay for the damaged strobe, unless of course your actions amounted to willful damage.

To the best of my knowledge, Oz employers must indemnify employees against claims for other than willful damage.

CFI as an Oz employer, is this correct?

------------------
bottums up




[This message has been edited by Capt Claret (edited 15 August 1999).]

[BEagle]

The sowewhat intemperate response from ILSNDBVOR serves little purpose in this string. Regrettably I only speak English and am therefore unable to ascertain quite what it is that appears to have aroused his wrath so passionately. As for WWW's fining, I thought that everyone agreed that it was decidedly unfair - and there was never any implication of wilful damage in this thread.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oh its grossly unfair and is certainly an 'illegal deduction from earnings' as outlined in several Acts of Parliament. However, its not worth (financially) making a fuss about in itself so I've let it lie.

The *really* worrying thing is that all my fellow instructors have seen what has happened and have resolved not to expose themselves to the risk of unemployment/financial penalty. The result being we now have an ingrained culture of cover up. This is madness for all of us and for the owner.

The allures of a nice big professional outfit where I am not expected to fly 7 (yes 7) slots a day (1 hours slots no less) 5 days a week are growing ever more compelling...

Stay safe, WWW

[DB6]

ILSNDBVOR, are you perchance Throber69, incognito?

[ILSNDBVOR]

BEagle, again you prove I am right, do you need something to smack you on the nose to see it?

DB6, no.

[BEagle]

ILSNDBVOR - Well, I've read this whole thread again and still can't understand quite what your point is. All I've said is:

1. Take control before things become irreversible.

2. Employers have the right to be aggrieved if someone damages their property. They do not, however, have the right to dish out arbitrary fines to their employees.

3. A 'slight' impact may not be so slight as one might think.

4. Fining employees will be counter beneficial as all that will happen is that no-one will ever report anything.

5. JAR calls us 'Flight Instructors', CFS graduates are called 'Qualified Flying Instructors'.

6. We all sympathise with WWW!

No doubt I shall now have to await the next venting of your spleen. Why?

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

This forum is for discussions between flying instructors on relevant topics like this one. Not for calling other people idiots.
In the absence of an available email address I am here to ask those responsible nicely to stop and edit your posts. If not, I will.

Now, back to that strobe light.....



------------------

[BEagle]

Quite so!! The cut and thrust, parry and riposte of reasoned debate should not be debased by personal abuse. On the matter of your wingstrobe, did it cost you about £80 to repair? It would take me quite a few hours revenue earning to cover that, I hope that you weren't too disadvantaged financially

[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 16 August 1999).]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Cost me (gross) about 125 pounds.

I note it has yet to be replaced. Just like the nav lights and landing light. Sigh.

WWW

[Capt Homesick]

WWW, if they're charging you for the repair and not doing it, that is called FRAUD. Get a receipt (tell them you need it for your tax return- if you're a summer only contractor like I was for a while, you may need to file a tax return yourself). Take some photos when no one is looking- purely in case someone else prangs it before the repair, and you end up footing the bill for it as well. Then hang on till the end of the summer- get the hours in. If it's still not fixed at the end of your contract, ask them for your money back!

[BEagle]

What an outfit you have to put up with!! Are they trying to wait until the next 50/150 servicing to fix the strobes, nav lights, landing light and who knows what else? Or are they not going to bother tofix them at all and intend to try and pocket your 'fine'? Capt H has a very good point about fraud, I hope that your company realises that! Best of luck with trying to get a job with an AOC operator in the future!!

[Snigs]

WWW, I was going to suggest another attempted meet, so I could buy you that coffee I promised you, but I think that I'll deny your outfit the pleasure of taking my landing fee. I'm appalled at the club's attitude described above.

Keep smiling.

[Squealing Pig]

Did my IMC there and was asked to pay a damage waiver premium (can't remember how much, might have been £10-£20) to protect me against the £500 or so insurance excess if I damaged one of their aircraft.

Shouldnt this money be being used to pay for minor mishaps?

Is this normal in aviation ?
No other school has asked me to pay this.

[This message has been edited by Squealing Pig (edited 18 August 1999).]

[ianhogg]

WWW you are obviously having to bite the bullet on this one but may I advise you and your co instructors to have a look at your contract of employment.If there is nothing in it about breakages(and I dont suppose there is!) By letting this fine stand you have renegociated your contract verbally in
your employers favour.To remedy this you will
need to emphisise that your payment was a one off and get something in writing in future, or the previous note about having to pay for a write off personally is dangerously close to the truth.Any bunch of
shisters who cannot budget for breakages are certainly up to pulling a stunt like that.
Life is to short to work for gits!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Contract of employment? Terms and conditions of employment? Employee handbook? Induction? Not likely. You're hired. You're fired.

My company, my world, my rules etc etc

I am not whinging really as I knew what I was getting myself into when I took the job. It'll make an interesting opening few chapters in my memoirs one day...

WWW