Suggestion for 150kts+ single please

[Bird Strike]

I'm trying to find out what options there are in terms of a relatively fast single engine civil aircraft (to buy, to rent, to share, at this stage I'm just trying to pick your brain as to what's been manufactured!).

The important thing is that it does at least 150kts (well 145kts+ anyway) due to its purpose being to travel a long distance.

Those that come immediately to my thought are:

C210
Bonanza
Cirrus SR20/22
Grob 140TP
Mooney
Piper Mirage (bahaha! Think of the price... eeeek!)

What else is there?? Your suggestion would be most welcome.


P.S. "150kts" refers to the normal cruise speed, not Vne, in case some of you decide to take the p!ss out :E

[Evo]

TB20? bah! silly 15 character limit

[TonyR]

If your like me and not too tall go for the TB20150 knots and 7 hours endurance

You will get lots of information on them here (http://www.socata.org/) including some for sale

Tony

[Bird Strike]

Thanks Evo & TonyR!

I forgot to mention that a 6'3" person needs to comfortably fit into it (no that's not me!). That ruled out a 2-seater Lancair :(

[Hampstead]

TB20... and I'm trying to sell my share in one so PM me if interested.

[Bird Strike]

I'm in Australia!! Only if I were in England... (and shrink my man's height to fit him in)

[TonyR]

Contact Mark Reynolds from WA [email protected]
He seems to know a lot about TBs, this (http://www.rits.net.au/jtt/index.htm) is his web site.

Tony

[Bird Strike]

Thanks TonyR, that sounds good - I'm looking at the site now :)

[MikeJ]

Your 6'3" may rule out a Lancair, but it would be comfortable in my Glasair, which just with an O-320 160hp engine, is easy 170Kts cruise and 6hrs fuel!

Mike.

[IO540]

TB20

Beware though of advertising literature which invariably gives a TAS rather than IAS, and the TAS could well be where you need oxygen and a full IR.

A TB20 will do 150kt TAS, at 65% power, at 8500ft which IIRC is the best-range altitude. The endurance is super; 7 hours (no reserve) at 65% power (140kt IAS). I've gone from UK to Malaga in one leg and had 40 mins' fuel left. Actually I stopped at Biarritz for a refuel but that's besides the point; I am able to fly everywhere with a min 2hrs' reserve at destination.

You can also put an impressive amount of avionics in a TB20.

Then of course there is the SR22, but that's about it unless you have £500k to spend. Currently (not for much longer) an SR22 has to be N-reg, but you are still left with the ADF/DME problem.

There isn't a 150kt diesel option currently, and if there was it would be too untested to play with.

[TonyR]

Our TB20 does 150 KIAS at 2000 feet using 23 in MAP and 2300 RPM burning 13 GPH (52 Litres). I dont know why but some others I've flown are about 7 or 8 knots slower.

Thre great thing is the range, the pilot will want to stop long before the aircraft needs fuel.

If you buy one in Europe I'll deliver it for you.

Tony

[flyingfemme]

A Comanche will do what you want - you need a 260 with tiptanks.

[Bird Strike]

Thanks guys, so far, TB20, Comanche and Glasair added to the potentials list.

I've never even seen a Glasair MikeJ, do you have a link to a good site with some details of this?

IO540 I thought they came up with a ADF retrofit kit for Cirrus? Or is that uncertified/uncertificable in the UK? Talking of a diesel option, I admit to being tempted by DA42 despite the fact it's a twin (I'm only put off twins due to high fuel and maintenance cost). But of course being new, like Cirrus, even the 2nd hand one would be bloody expensive if I could ever find one :\

[IO540]

TonyR

Have you checked the ASI recently, and do you have a calibrated fuel flowmeter? For that fuel flow, you cannot be doing 150kt ias in a standard TB20 or TB20GT. 140-142 would be nearer the mark as you suggest, and the extra HP required to go from 140 to 150 at the top end of the drag curve is a lot, about +10 to +15%. I heard one can get sort of engine efficiency improvement with state of the art gasflowing but that cannot be done while the engine is in warranty (also I don't believe it, anyway, because flowing only reduces the pumping losses).

Back to the original Q, even today I think I would still buy a TB20 over a Cirrus, though the decision would be driven more by servicing considerations. A TB20 can be worked on by most competent maintenance shops. I wouldn't trust most places to work on a Cirrus or a Diamond, unless (if Cirrus) it is bog standard engine work.

The build quality on a TB20 is excellent too.

[TonyR]

IO540
Even Air Touring, commented on how fast it was and the ASI was checked, I have been in a few others that go just as fast.

We fill up every time we get fuel and we know exactly how much we use (52 LPH)

If you are around at a meet sometime we can go flying in each others.

Tony

[Flyin'Dutch']

Since last month Cirrus is certified in EU land. They are also working on the ADF/DME issue.

They handle better than the TB20 and apart from the depreciation I suspect that in the long run costs will lower. You go a lot faster too.

Having said that, TB20 are nice to fly, good for IFR and you pay half the price of a Cirrus.

FD

[TonyR]

The Cirrus SR22 is a lovely aircraft, but to go about 12 Knots faster than a TB20 you will burn at least 12 liters more fuel and you don't have the range nor the useful load.

I can't find anything that will go as fast and as far with 4 up and full tanks with less fuel burn of the TB20.

Tony

[englishal]

I vote for a TB20 (after cruising at 150 IAS, Oxford to Edinburgh in 2hrs 20 min )

Although I would still like a Jet-A Twin Star :D

Edited becasue I just worked out that our fuel consumption was 13 Gals per hour as per Tony's figures.....

[SR20flyDoc]

Birdstrike

I was interested in a (second hand) TB20, but considered upgrading the avionics to todays standards to high a price. At that time the SR20 was the only Cirrus model available and I waited 3 years to get one.

To check out all aspects of Cirri you can look at www.ciiruspilots.org or www.cirrus147.com

Ive heard (second hand knowledge) of 2 flight school TB20's with main spar corrosion after only 2 years that are now back in Tarbes. Not nice l:rolleyes:

The SR22 G2 (generation 2) will do 185 TAS on 16 but still 165 on 13 GPH. (LOP) And not in the teens so without O2

My SR20 proves to be a mean travelling machine, I did Lelystad, Visby Stockholm, Helsinki, Riga and back in 5 days, and Pisa?lucca/Cannes two week before that. I do 125 TAS on 7 gallons if I want to go slow, lean-of-peak and 150 TAS when in a hurry on 12,5 ROP.

If you have the money, buy the SR22 with TKS and if you do want a TB20/TB21 check www.devoort.com for a nice, but better priced slightly used TKS equipped TB21.

Maintenance is not an issue with the Cirrus. I go to my local shop for everythinh but SB's under warrany.

The evolution on ships was the same, first wood, then metal, now composites.

The Diamond twin is also an excellent option, but the numbers they claim still have to be verified. Its also smaller than a Cirrus

The parachute on the Cirrus is now proven to be succesful and it's a nice to have thing, just like airbags on a car. Of course we are all the best pilots on earth (do you know that pilots who read fora have a lower likelyhood of having an incident ?) but if somebody else screws up , it's always there. :p

Just my 0,02 eurocents

[eyeinthesky]

The Mooney is a brilliant tourer, if a little snug for 4 people. The older one that I used to fly had non-adjustable rudder pedals and they were a LONG way under the panel. That would be great for your 6 ft 2 person, but you might need to have a look. For shorter people the need to reach the rudder pedals means that you sit quite close to the control column which can make it difficult to fit in a full-size kneeboard etc. I'm 6 ft and was just about OK.

Also, no brakes on the right set of controls if that worries you.

As a go-places aircraft, great. I seem to remember 150 kts+ IAS, which can be 160+ TAS even at relatively low levels. Not great prop clearance however, which can make taxying at some grass airfields a costly experience if you're not careful.

[MikeJ]

Bird Strike,
I only came in on this as you mentioned Lancair, and seemed prepared to consider a kit a/c. Glasairs are a two seat very fast retractable, coming out a bit before the Lancair. Mine has the simplest engine, many are with 180hp or 200hp, and the norm for the Glasair III is 300hp IO-540. A few III's have 400+ SHP turbo props if you really want to go exotic, and 250 kts cruise.
Even my early one has a 225 kts vne (260mph).

There are about a 1000 flying, most in the US, but there are 18 on the UK register, and I know there are some in Oz.
I bought an immaculately completed one 13 years ago, and have been absolutely delighted with it, and maintenance costs have been trivial.

Mnfrs site is www.newglasair.com, and you can work your way through to a photo album. Or do a google search on 'glasair' and get lots more.

If you want a 4 seat manufactured a/c, I would unhestitatingly go Mooney. I bought one 30 years ago, and was looking for another when I saw the Glasair for sale!

Mike.

[Tinstaafl]

What sort of load, range & runway performance do you want, Birdy? And are prepared to pay for?

Sticking to manufacturered types since I know little about homebuilts you have quite range. I tend to divide it into smaller & larger piston singles (in terms of cost or load lift ability

Smaller:

Things like

Mooney eg 201. Advantage is the reduced 2nd hand price & fuel consumption. There are also the newer models but then there's the extra purchase cost. Disadvantage is the more limited rough field ability, room & load lift compared to:

C182 RG. Roomy, good load lift & rough/short field. One of the few with little or no trade off between filling seats & flying for range. Bit more fuel burn & also can be expensive to buy due demand. Simple undercarriage mechanism which is good too. You might not like the heavier control feel though.

Piper. Can't think of an equivalent, off hand. The PA28R series are too slow. Possibly a Comanche but they're comparitely old.

Beech 33 Bonanza. Competing class to the C182RG. More expensive to maintain I suspect. The A36 I once operated always seemed to cost more than a C210. Nice to fly though. Dislike the Beech panel layout prior to the twin column redesign. Not sure if that ever happened to the 33 series.


Larger:

C210. Also a heavier control feel. Lots of room. Some trade off between filling all seats or the tanks. Similar other advantages to the C182RG. Higher fuel burn.

A36 Bonanza: Competes with the C210. Similar comparison to the C210 as the 33 model to the C182RG. Big disadvantage is a lack of baggage space with all seats filled ie virtually non-existant. Rear double door is a decided advantage.

PA32R Lance/Saratoga. Slower end of the scale. May not quite meet your 150kt spec. depending on load etc. More room than the other two - even a 7th seat option available. Very good baggage room with both a front & rear locker. Makes W&B easy! Also a rear door advantage.

[FWA NATCA]

How about Cirrus, Lance Air, or RV4 to an RV8. All of these are fast, from what I'm told also fun and a pleasure to fly.

Mike

[Atlas Shrugged]

http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/advsearch.shtml

[GK430]

Tinstaafl

Saratoga less than 150 kts:(

The IITC goes a lot quicker:ok:

[Bird Strike]

Thanks very much everyone, all noted - this Glasair thing sounds rather "different". Do they come as certified version?

Tinny, the max I want to pay for an hour (for rental, this is) is about $300 (AU). For purchase/share... it all depends on what it is, condition etc I guess. But it's at a very early stage of consideration and more the case of narrowing down what might be nice to fly :D

[IO540]

TonyR

Actually you are right, I get 138ktias at 10.5GPH (just a bit LOP) so if you get 150ktias at 13GPH that's just about exactly what one would expect for the far right bit of the power curve: 8.7% more speed for 24% more fuel flow

:O

[Flyin'Dutch']

Saratoga less than 150 kts

The Lance with some speed mods does more than that, and has a better useful load.

FD

[SR20flyDoc]

Atlas Shrugged

Your link is a bit outdated, since no mention of Lancair, Diamond or Cirrus. Also to figures are marketing, not actual. (I don't know af a TB20 that cruises (75%@8000ft) above 150)

The Piper Lance (and don't forget the Beech Sierra) are good value planes but don't forget they where certified to older rules which left them with a higher payload IMHO :E

[TonyR]

At 8000 ft at 75% power I get 167 knots TAS in our TB20 and 150 at sea level.

If I could find something better for under a £100,000 I would buy one

[IO540]

Someone earlier here made a point about upgrading avionics being expensive. It is! It is almost totally a waste of money, in the sense that the value of used avionics is close to zero, but that fact will not be reflected in a discount on the purchase price of a used plane.

It depends what the plane is to be used for.

If it is just VFR, then this doesn't matter. So long as you have VOR/DME you can buy a decent GPS, screw it to the yoke and off you go. You have all the nav gear you need.

But if it is for IFR also, and the plane doesn't come with the required avionics or an autopilot, the figures add up very differently, and one is quickly pushed towards buying something a lot more expensive, simply because the cost of upgrading, plus a reasonable figure for the value of a 2 year warranty (say £10k), takes one awfully close to the price of a new or nearly new plane.

There is a lot of threads here and elsewhere about buying used planes, but most of them focus on getting something 20-30 years old i.e. for about 1/5 of the price of a new equivalent. One isn't going to get an IFR aircraft for that, and very little gets said about this. 2 years ago I spent a year looking at "IFR" planes in the 150kt bracket.

[spitfire]

If you are a little more adventurous and have appropriate experience, an L-39 Albatross will do the job for you... acquisition cost is within the ballpark of what's been previously discussed but not so sure about the fuel bills.

[englishal]

an L-39 Albatross will do the job for you
Though for some reason the CAA will only let you fly it Day / VFR...?

Could get an N reg one though, then you could fly it IFR (I think)...surprisingly "cheap", and would be an awful lot of fun!

www.l39.com

EA

[Flyin'Dutch']

Not sure, but suspect that the LOA is only valid in US airspace.

FD

[MLS-12D]

Bird Strike: There are a fair number of homebuilt designs that can provide the speed you require, with reasonable endurance. Most seat only two people, which might be an advantage or a disadvantage depending upon the particular mission requirement (no point flying about with three or four extra seats, but if you have plenty of friends, or lots of luggage, a homebuilt probably won't do).

The Mooney is a brilliant tourer, if a little snug for 4 people. The older one that I used to fly had non-adjustable rudder pedals and they were a LONG way under the panel.I believe that they're designed for Texans ('tall in the saddle' and all that).

an L-39 Albatross ... acquisition cost is within the ballpark of what's been previously discussed but not so sure about the fuel bills.The fuel costs would be high, that's why the acquisition cost is relatively reasonable (limited demand for such an expensive to operate aircraft). Looks like a lot of airplane for the money, though (see generally here (http://www.warbirdalley.com/l39pr.htm)); I'd choose it over a Lear Jet! ;)

[Davidt]

No one mentioned the Commander series

114's cruise @ 130/140 at around 3000' a little under your target
114tc and 114A's, B's and 115's around 155/165.

I get 5 hours out of my 114, leaned out at 49 liter/hour

wouldnt consider the 112's unless you can get a tc load lifting capacity limited

Beautifully built, stylish and the best cabin in its class no probs for you 6'3" mate. Trailing link u/c means you never do a bad landing.

Only down side I,ve found is that spares are hard to come by sometimes.

[SR20flyDoc]

IO540

The TB20 I had a look on had a HSI, but no Sandel

10000 excl installation/VAT

No IFR GPS (a Trimble)
No Annex 10 certified VOR?Comms

2 time Garmin 40

23000 excl inst/vat

No propper audio panel

3000 excl inst / vat

No MFD

14000 excl inst /vat

No engine monitoring (it's a single remember, its all you have)

Bad paint

20000 excl vat

Corrosion ??

So the difference (and no 167TAS@8000@75%) is about 100.000 euros excl installation (, and it would still be an old airplane (12 years old) without warranty. It bught me a new plane when I added all up. A the grin still has to be scraped off my face :D



http://www.cirruspilots.org/uploaded_images/3-96262-SR20LEAL.jpg

:D

[IO540]

SR20fly

That's not a suprising decision you made. I had a look at a few TBs, Commanders, Mooneys, and some others, and by the time one chucked out the old stuff and made them reasonable for IFR, the decision was clear enough: buy a new plane which comes with all the kit.

[Flyin'Dutch']

HSIs are great, not convinced though that the Sandel is a major improvement over the 'old fashioned' Bendix one.

Flew the Robin for 4 days the week before last and found it difficult to read in the bright sunlight but back in the Lance last Tuesday thought it was OK.

What do others think?

FD

[MLS-12D]

SR20fly: that's quite a colourful panel! Just be careful that it doesn't distract you from keeping your eyes outside of the cockpit, where they belong. ;)

FD: if flying in bright sunshine, you don't need an HSI! :D

[IO540]

FD

There are two "EHSI" products: Sandel and Honeywell. The latter one has a much better display.

Also the Sandel has a projection lamp which is a single point failure with a high probability of happening. I gather they have a recommended replacement interval.

I have been offered one but cannot justify the cost of about £8k-10k given that I already have a slaved HSI and a slaved RMI and both are IMHO desirable as separate instruments, and with an MFD a lot of the EHSI info is a duplicate anyway. I think of all the bits of LCD glass one could buy, a large MFD is the money best spent because of the relatively un-cluttered situational awareness.

But many planes don't have the panel space, which is why one sees so many installations with a GNS430, or even two of them, and no MFD. The screens are IMHO too small for moving maps. But very good margins for the avionics shop :O

If I was spending money I would go for full TKS. Icing below MSA is what stops me flying in the winter.

[Flyin'Dutch']

The bulb in the Sandel needs to be changed every 100 hours.

Yup that is a single item failure if it goes but to be honest a HSI/DI failure is not the end of the world and the Lance has a full P2 panel.

If you like MFDs you will love the MX20 which is driven by the CNX80.

FD