VP-1 pilots

[TheKentishFledgling]

If there are any VP-1ers reading, could you drop me a PM?

Thanks,
tKF

[Flyin'Dutch']

tKF,

I nearly was one but did not proceed as the overall costs would have been heavily influenced by the fact that I would have had to hangar it at an airfield at considerable cost.

I did my spreadsheet ;) and worked out that the nominal cost difference between the VP1 operation and something in which I would have been able take a mate or so up would be marginal so chose to go a different way.

Now I have the farmstrip I sometimes think that it would be great fun to have something like the VP and certainly think they are a ticket to many hours of inexpensive flying.

I have it on good authority that the hangar issue is solvable in your case.

I think I still have not given back the book from one of the 'Listers' detailing the goings on for VP1s and I will contact him to see if I can give it to you for reading.

Hope it all works out for you and if I was the jealous type would be envious. Will be great to meet up at Stik's and compare notes.

Best of luck.

FD

PS Get helmet for your nut!

[shortstripper]

I own a VP2 ... Flew it for a year from my farm strip but it's now in the workshop being rebuilt.

They are great fun and very very cheap. Have you bought one? or just considering it?

SS

[Ransman]

I know the North Western Strut of the PFA were building one for their members. Last time I saw it at Barton (EGCB) it had the wings covered, and was standing on it's own wheels. Not sure if the project has progressed.

Just remembered the reg. G-BCVE. A VP2. I believe they were going to put a BMW m/c engine on the front.

[LowNSlow]

Are any VP1/2's built with removable wings? I ask cos the Fokker Eindecker lookalike that is being advertised at the moment says that it comes with wing cradles. From this I assume the wings are demountable. Is this a time consuming operation or is it easy a la Kitfox / Avid?

[shortstripper]

They all derig; it takes two (better three) people about an hour to do. Unfortunately as they are not designed to be taken apart on a regular basis they would need an inspector sign off every time you re-rigged for flight.

It might be possible to come up with a decent frequent use control coupling system (perhaps pip pins ect like gliders) but the wing root and upper wing strut bolts have to be tight to work properly. This means that pins with "R" clips or whatever probably would not be ideal and good engineering practice would preclude the re-use of the old nuts at least, perhaps even the bolts each time. If someone came up with an accecptable method and could get it past the PFA as a mod it would be great. With the wings and tail off the VP1 and 2 take up very little space and could easily live in the average garage. As it is they have to remain rigged to be practical but could easily be derigged and stored at home in the winter to save hangarage.

:ok:

SS

[LowNSlow]

Thanks shortstripper , I suspected that was the case. It is slightly surprising given the low cost ethos behind the Veeps that they weren't designed with a folding wing.

The extra hangarage for the VP would exceed it's value in eight months.................

[shortstripper]

Depends on what you think of as their "value". True, in monetary terms they are not high priced, but for "value" for money in terms of FUN FUN FUN they easily outweigh the summer (or annual)hangarage cost.

Having said that .... VP's belong on private strips and are surprisingly STOL given their poor climb rate. I can get off and up to 50' clearance in under 250m ... but it probably then takes nearly 10 minutes to reach 2500'. Still, what's the rush? :p

SS

[SlipSlider]

TKF, pm sent (I think! .... doesn't show up in my sent folder)
Slip

[bar shaker]

TKF

I bow to the size of your genitalia.

I fly microlights, mostly, but would need those electric prodding things to get me in a VP.

Whilst SS says he flies one, I'll bet its not far and i'll bet he has plenty of other aircraft too.

On a (very) slightly less daunting scale, have a look at a Minimax, Thruster TST, or Taylor Monoplane.

I share an airfield with a monoplane owner and he flies almost as much as I do. He loves his aircraft.

No good for girlfriends though :(

[J.A.F.O.]

barshaker

After spotting my reference to Switzerland in the PFA thread I had you marked down as a very astute individual so I must now ask, what is wrong with the Veep (either 1, 2 or both)?

Also anyone else with any experience of Mr Evans' two short planks please feel free to chip in.

No, I've never flown in one; yes, I do intend to next year.

Feel free to PM me if you need to use rude words.

[LowNSlow]

shortstripper I pay 250 of your English pounds a month to hangar my Auster........ Nuff said :uhoh:

[bar shaker]

J.A.F.O.

It would be the climb rate and the loading limitations that would put me off.

I'm sure its fun for one or two summers evenings though.

[shortstripper]

Poor Old VP's, they do get a ribbing don't they?

Strange thing is most of it comes from those who have never flown one and base their ideas on hearsay :rolleyes: . True, the climb rate is slow ... but it's no slower than a Luton Minor or FRED, which are two comparable aircraft. I tell you what ... I bet that even though they are not designed as STOL I could get my VP into and out of strips most aeroplanes could not! The climb rate "IS" slow, but once you get the technique right they get off and up to a safe height in a very short distance indeed. True also that they may not be good touring aeroplanes but again 70 knots is quite respectable for their class; compare again to the Luton (about 60mph) and the FRED (maybe 65mph). Of course you have to decide what you want from an aircraft? if as I suspect TKF is out to build hours cheaply then how can you knock a VP, or for that matter any other small single seat homebuilt?

No, I haven't used it to fly far, but a couple of hundred miles (which I have done) is OK. I do have a T31m I'm building and recently a share in a Falconar, but that would not put me off flying further afield in it for fun when it's flying again. Sure, as a serious go places aeroplane it would be a joke ... but at about £20-£30/hr all in, and the fact that it really is good real fun flying ... who can snigger?

SS

PS ... It may not look sexy either, but you'd be amazed how much interest a VP invokes from non flying and flying folk alike when you turn up at a fly-in. :ok:

[Flyin'Dutch']

tKF,

Congratulations on getting your wings!

FD

[stiknruda]

tKf - very well done this morning!

For those not in the know - tKf (Ed) completed his GFT and nav test this morning. He is 17 on Sunday and rumour has it that the CAA are going to open the beehive especially to grant him his licence on his 17th birthday!

I understand it is a quick cycle down to LGW first thing Sunday then you are taking your parents to lunch in Le2K in the school 172.

Now you might have qualified for a pilot's licence but you have not passed your driving test and you certainly aren't old enough to neck pints on licenced premises!

Stik:ok:

[LowNSlow]

Well done TKF time to start looking for a cheap Auster for your hour building :ok: :ok:

[Flyin'Dutch']

Veeps are not everyone's cup of tea but pleaaaaaaaaaaasssse not an Auster!

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

FD

[J.A.F.O.]

Well done TKF.

I learnt to fly at 17 and then did bu&&er all with it for years and years, I'm sure that you won't fall into the same boat.

Fantastic.

[Windy Militant]

Well Done TFK.

Flyin'Dutch' what's wrong with Austers may I ask! apart from the fact that there's no such thing as a cheap one ;)

Come to think of it get involved with any aircraft and you will pay,and pay, and pay................... either time or money they are demanding beasts. However the rewards that you reap make the investment well worth it :ok:

Blue skies and happy landings TFK.

[FNG]

Well done TKF! Post a thread about it.

Windy, FD has a well known thing about Austers, but, hey, he thinks Maules are good looking. Doctors, eh?

[shortstripper]

Nice one Ed!

It doesn't seem long ago since you first started posting on the flyer list ... look at you now; a well established member of the aviators community!:cool:

I wish you all the best for the future.

SS

Austers are lovely but they're on CAA permits not PFA and they are guzzle guts. I'd still like one though :ugh:

[Flyin'Dutch']

Windy, FD has a well known thing about Austers, but, hey, he thinks Maules are good looking.

Maules aren't particular pretty and I have to say that the Austers score higher in that department and are actually quite esthetically pleasing.

Unfortunately that is their only redeeming feature.

They are a pig to handle on the ground, difficult (or impossible) to land well consistently, cramped, anaemic performance, noisy, break down every 2 seconds.

It is not surprising that the purchase price for them is so depressed compared with the offering in the same category (note not class) made by our US cousins; The Cub.

FD

[bar shaker]

Ed

A fantastic achievement, well done. :)

For your first aircraft, please buy/share something that will get you above 500ft in less than 2 miles from take off.

FD... Cubs... now we are talking ;)

[shortstripper]

It's amazing how just like cars, aeroplanes gather a following mostly based on fashion. The Cub isn't any better than an Champ or Chief, yet sells for half as much again? A VP is equal to quite a few others in its class (note "class" :) ) A C150 or similar is thought of as boring, yet does everything it was designed to do?

Pilots ... Pah!, no better than drivers. Yep, I'd love a Porsche! but a Old Ford car will get you there (though maybe not to Heaven, as the song says) and an old soft top Herald is pretty good fun to drive.

Ed, I wouldn't take too much notice of those who knock VP's and their like unless they have at least flown them. Those that have will (if honest) tell you that they are great fun and a very cheap way to get hours. They do require a certain degree of sympathetic handleing but are not as unsafe as the scaremongeres like you to believe. A Luton Minor is more forgiving than a VP and about as easy an aeroplane to fly as you can get, a VP is more forgiving than a Taylor Monoplane or Turb. The best of the bunch is probably the D9, but you'll pay more. I've flown the Veep when a microlight would bounce all over the sky and I've also scared myself in it when I thought I could just buy it and go without decent briefing! A typical VP1 will cost you £2500 to buy, will burn 3 galls/hr and use an eggcup of oil. It will get you off the ground and up to 50' in about 200 yards, will climb at about 350-450/min and cruise at about 65-75knots. Any pilot who can't cope with a performance like that shouldn't be allowed to fly a C150 on a hot summers day ... cos it won't climb a lot better and is far more likely to fall foul of bar shaker's 500' in 2 mile rule :hmm:

So to build hours ....

Microlight? No good if you want to get a CPL
Group Share ... approx £3-5k / £40-50mth / £20-£60/hr
VP1 ... £2500 outright *£25-£350mth hangarage* £15-30/hr depending on use

Other single seat group A's like FRED, Mono, D9 "are" nicer to fly I will admit, but will cost more initially

*hangarage* is the Killer, so my overall recommendation for cheapy flying taking Group A, purchase cost, running cost ect is the good old underated folding wing FRED :ok:

SS

[QNH 1013]

SS, Didn't you miss out insurance, which will soon be compulsary?
I suspect the minimum premium will rise as a result.

[shortstripper]

Yes I forgot to add insurance, so ...

VP1 insurance is about £750/yr, so it obviously depends on hours. If you take fuel at 3galls/hr that's about £15/hr ... oil about one gallon per 50hrs = £0.30/hr. If you rebuild your own VW it will cost about £1000 max and should be good for 500-1200hrs depending on use (say 500, but a lot more if flown more) = £2/hr. Permit with a few bits around £100-200/per year (£150)


So if we say

25hrs .... £53/hr
50hrs .... £35/hr
75hrs .... £29/hr
100hrs ... £26/hr

How does that sound?

And that's for exclusive use, but will require you to clean and maintain it yourself!

However, my VP2 was £2500 to buy and the flying I did before I decided to rebuild (I didn't really need to, but wanted to make it better :rolleyes: ) worked out at about £18/hr (no insurance) with hangarage at less than £25/month. It does help to be a farm manager with a handy field though ;)

SS

[Kingy]

Hey SS,

I'm just back from a lovely hour in my Sky Scooter, a rather rare member of the VW powered group you are refering to. I get 3rd party insurance for £ 250, not £750 and fuel burn has worked out to be around 2.5 GPH for the 1600cc engine fitted. Also, re climb, just by changing my Lodge prop for a more appropiate Italian GT amazingly, the time taken for the dreaded 1000ft climb has reduced from 245seconds to 110! - I cannot reccomend these props highly enough.

Kingy

[stiknruda]

tKf

can't/won't help with insurance and hangarage but if your Volks ever needs tearing down and put together again, then I'm pretty sure I can remember how I rebuilt my mum's Brazillian born 1600cc VEEDUBYA in Belem, twenty odd years ago.;)


Stik - gosto muito Brasil.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
I have flown both the 1 and the 2 and have had great fun in them. SS hit the nail on the head and described their characteristics very accurately.The 2 has an appalling climb rate but I managed to get one up to 3000' one fine summer's day, but apart from that, they are real fun to fly and have a very high grin factor. The cruise is alright, at 70kts max.,but then,what's the hurry? Ideally, the 2 needs a minimum of 65 hp(from a properly tuned and ported VeeDub) and the right propellor. As for range, well,two VP-1s from here in Ireland have made the pilgrimage to Cranfield and back.So,if you are prepared to become a member of the Iron-Butt club, it can be done.
Now,the eye-watering descent rate when the prop stops is another matter.....
regards
TDD

[LowNSlow]

Sorry to sidetrack the thread but I feel compelled to defend the poor maligned Auster.

I swopped my L-4 Cub for my Auster Autocrat (and a cheque) and I far prefer it. I feels "engineered" rather than built down to a price. I still make the occasional odd landing but I also did that in the Cub (I operate out of a strip which has a permanent crosswind). With tailwheel steering fitted she's as easy to handle on the ground as the Cub and the Cirrus Minor engine burns around 4-4.5 gph while cruising 10 knots faster than the Cub.

My Cirrus has been reliable (so far) after being rebuilt by Norvic 12 years ago. Solo with full fuel in the main tank she gets off the ground in much the same distance as the Cub (give or take 10 yards) but two up the "cruise" prop means more distance unfortunately.

As much as I loved the Cub, there are better aircraft in the category eg Aeronca Champ, Taylorcraft etc which do pretty much everything better than the Cub for less money..... Unfortunately for them they don't have the "Oooh ain't it cute" look of the Cub.

[shortstripper]

TDD ...

They do drop don't they?:E With sideslip they are basically parachutes and will get into the smallest of fields. You might have to take the wings off to get out, but your chances of walking away unscathed are far, far higher than most. I know which I'd prefer to force land out of a Veep, a C150 and even a Cub! (although the Cub's undercarriage might take a bit more abuse than the Vp's :\ )

Kingy...

I was very tempted by the Flaglor Scooter sold on Ebay last year and if I'd had the cash might very well have bought it. Yes, prop makes a HUGE difference on many homebuilds as you obviously know. I swopped my 57x32 Chris Lodge for a 60X30 RWG and gained an extra 150' minute for no loss in cruise. The Veep is one of those funny old birds that kind of gets on a "step" a bit like a speedboat. You'll never get to a good fast cruise by just flying level ... but dive a bit to get up to speed, then level off and she'll stay there! My figure for insurance was a guesstimate, as I was quoted £800 for the VP2 but didn't take it as flying from fields here on the farm considered the cost too much. That was the summer after 9/11 though, and the VP2 "is" a two seater in insurance terms. If the real figure is closer to your £250 then the figures quoted for Ed will be even cheaper!

Ed and Stik

The VW is sooooo easy to work on! I've built one from scratch and rebuilt a couple more. Parts are cheap and available and even a full strip down takes a surprisingly short time once you pluck up the courage to get on with it. As an example, a new set of pistons, rings AND barrels will set you back less than £150!!! Try the same for a Cont or Lyc! The VW is a very good engine if you get the cooling right ... get it wrong and you'll be lucky to manage a couple of hundred hours. Cylinder head cooling is the biggest problem and with the relatively low climb speed of many small homebuilds, but especially the draggy VP, cowling/baffle design is everything.

LowNslow

I think Austers are wonderful, and I agree with you about Cubs. I just wish they could be operated on a PFA permit to keep the costs down :ugh:

SS

[bar shaker]

Ed

The story of getting your first aircraft, from a good friend of mine.

Brian's story (http://www.medwayairsportsclub.org.uk/stories/flyagain.htm)

Enjoy :)

[Sliding member]

I've heard the "Minimax" described as a modern day VP-1, I assume this refers to its simplicity and cheap price. Its another A/C I could quite possibly afford if I could commit myself. I imagine they handle better, anyone flown one?

[TheKentishFledgling]

Just to say that after nearly three months of this thread starting, on Sunday I secured the deal on the Veep and so I'm now the proud owner of G-BCTT.

Particular thanks to stik for all the help during the purchase.

tKF

http://www.eludlow.flyer.co.uk/veep.jpg

[BRL]

Great news. Now that looks like fun with a capital F. Take it easy mate :)

[stiknruda]

TT seems very well put together (I actually know the builder, but he completed the VP1 years before I met him). It has suffered cosmetically from some neglect but I do believe that pride of ownership will not be one of tKf's shortcomings. A few afternoons of cleaning, polishing and touching up some of the paint and she'll look like new. The photograph does not do justice to the ugliness of the design - but it is sweet-ugly, not hideously ugly!

I popped over on Sunday morning to "help out". In no time, Ed had the cowlings off and DJ, the vendor was showing him where the sparks were made, where the oil was stashed - how to change the oil, etc. Good progress was made and Ed tried to start the engine. The engine was a little recalcitrant at first but after a few swings, it roared into life.

At idle with no carb heat applied, condensation was soon to be seen forming on the inlet manifold - on a warmer, more humid day, I am reliably informed that ice can quickly accrete there - quite a sobering lesson! Would make a great ab-initio PPL instruction video; carb-ice - watch it happen!

Ed stopped the donk and refitted the cowlings, then he started the engine a couple of times before he went to taxi it up and down the length of the farm strip.

Some (2 or 300!) long-haired, ne'er do wells had broken into the farmers grain store on the other side of the strip the previous afternoon and were holding a 48hr illegal rave. It was quite surreal to see this yound lad and his new toy traipsing up and down the strip at an ever increasing gait but totally unable to hear it as any noise was drowned out by techno-grunge-garage-tunes from the tresspassers more used to standing in a dole queue! At least it gave bored and impotent plod-u-like something more interesting to watch than the stoned ravers chucking their guts up next to the other farm outbuildings!

Once everyone on the aviation side of the strip were satisfied, I jumped into my biplane and departed before the discussion about filthy lucre began. Because of arriving traffic, I ended up fast and low over the strip heading straight for the rave and I will confess to wondering whether napalm sticks to dreadlocks!!

Well done Ed - am sure that we are going to have lots of fun starting really soon, like the weekend after next!

Stik

[Monocock]

Great looking toy tKF.

Can you post a pic of the first time the wheels leave the ground?

[stiknruda]

tKf's new toy took to the skies today for the first time since its permit test flight at the beginning of the year and I was the lucky chap tasked with the ferry flight.

I've never flown or even sat in a VP before this afternoon, climbing in is not an easy operation unless you are a tall leggy sort. You can not stand on the wing so unless you can swing your foot straight into the cockpit you are restricted to a rather ungainly clamber over the two streamlined tubes that top-brace the main and rear spars.

Once in, there isn't a lot of elbow room. As it is an open cockpit aeroplane, Iwas wrapped up warmly. Boots, aircrew socks, jeans, rugger shirt and a very heavy shooting coat. Gloves are not optional and I borrowed a full-face motorcycle helmet as the 20 mile trip was to be non-radio.

I'm used to flying four aileron, 200hp Pitts Specials but that does not mean that I treated this aeroplane with any levity. Flying a new type is always a little nerve racking but as the sun began to approach the horizon I knew that I had just better get on with it. I'm not the smallest bloke around and I was pretty close to MAUW.

Strapped in, donk running, a quick mag check before I taxied all the way to the end of the strip to do my power checks. Taxiing was very straight forward - with a dribble of power, the rudder became energised at really low speeds and steering using the rudder pedals was simplicity itself. As one can see over the nose in the three point attitude there is no need for zig-zag taxis as per more potent tailwheel aircraft.

The throttle is exactly where it should be, in a comfortable postion on the left side of the cockpit. It is a military style quadrant with a lever. At slower speeds the differential wheel brakes are operated by two levers on the right hand side of the cockpit, this necessitates a hand swap - left hand off throttle and on to stick, right hand from stick to brakes. Not ideal but it worked well enough. The carb heat is just above the brake levers and was out (hot) for all the taxi work and run ups.

Having done my power checks I lined TT up at LKI (London Knettishall International), closed the carb heat and slowly opened the throttle, the engine note changed rapidly and we bagan to move, slowly at first but with ever increasing urgency. Keeping her straight was simplicity itself because the rudder works well at low speeds and in reality a VW swinging a short wooden prop is not producing shed loads of torque!

Stick forward and the tail raises, not too high about 6" off the ground, as the speeed builds ease the stick rearwards or the tail gets too high, wait until the ASI is energised and gentle back pressure on the stick.... the wheels leave the longish grass and we are airborne. I held her down in ground effect at about 5' and watched the speed build. I whooshed past the last hangar and gently started a climbing turn. It was very apparent that this little aeroplane really wanted to fly and that pitch was far lighter than roll.

I slowly climbed to 700' and set course for home. Either I'm the most gifted pilot in the world or the balance ball was stuck as it never moved from its perfectly balanced position. As I could feel the entire aeroplane through one cheek of my arse or the other I deduced that the ball was firmly stuck!

The cruise was pretty comfortable and on the way back I experimented with various power settings, Vne dives and a stall. The stall was very benign but we did lose a hundred feet as I guess I was a bit slow putting power on in the recovery. I have no idea what speed we stalled at as the ASI was off the scale, the vendor has supplied tKf with a brand new ASI that has a more realistic scale than the current ASI which would be more at home in an Extra 300!


In less than 20 minutes I was back at mine and I tried to set up a nice controlled approach but it was not to be... the throttle is almost binary - bags of power = we fly. Throttle closed = we sink like a house brick. Trying to determine a happy medium didn't work so I ended up coming in very high and just closed the throttle. I flew an arbitary 50mph final and flared when the wheels were a couple of feet off the grass. She touched down and rolled to a stop within about 70 yards. Admittedly the grass is 3" long, quite wet and there is a slight incline.

All in all - really good fun. I hope that tKf enjoys it as much as I did and I really don't think it is difficult to fly at all. One has to be very aware that it is not blessed with a surplus of power, it needs to be flown accurately to eliminate wasteful drag but it was a fun experience. In reality probably better suited to summers evenings than autumnal afternoons but it wasn't too cold or too uncomfortable!


I have a sneaky suspicion that tKf will have great fun with this aeroplane and that by next summer it will have covered the length of Britain and will probably have made a foray or two to the continent!

Al he needs to do now is get his tailwheel endorsement and take G-BCTT home.


Stik

veepee pilot!

[TheKentishFledgling]

:D

Roll on next week is all I can say, and you up there, please can we have some good weather?

Thanks a million to stik for doing the ferry flight, and being the first to fly an aeroplane that's been sitting (or rather hanging - the aeroplane up until now has been suspended from a hangar roof!) un-flown for 10 months or so - I owe you one!

tKF