easyJet's 75 plane order

[regor]

I have heard a rumour that easyJet will be making the decision tomorrow, regarding their proposal to purchase up to 75 new aircraft.. .. .The rumour also said that Airbus was the favourite at the moment, offering a discount of £2m per aircraft, as well training for 5 crews.. .. .Can anyone confirm, deny or add any other new info on this?

[MissChief]

5 crews for 75 aircraft!..must be the new breed of Airbus..radio-controlled or what?

[ops kid]

Red Demon: With the list price for the A319 being around £35 million and with Ryanair apparently able to squeeze a 40% discount out of Boeing the other week, easyJet would be looking for a discount of nearer £20 million per aircraft I think. :p

[aviatorwrld]

here we go again..... .But what of the time frame for the announcement?

[Flight Safety]

From the easyjet website (fleet information).... .. .information pack - aircraft and fleet information. .. .easyJet operates a single type of aircraft, the Boeing 737, regarded as the workhorse of the industry. It is one of the best selling commercial aircraft of all time, made popular because of its efficiency and cost effectiveness. Uniformity of aircraft in the fleet, is one way that easyJet helps to keep the costs low.. .. .Each single-class aircraft holds a total of 149 passenger seats in a six-abreast configuration. The outside of the aircraft is used to communicate the airline's web site address in the distinctive easyJet orange.. .. .The easyJet fleet, which currently consists of 18 737-300s and 12 next-generation 737-700 (as at February 2002), is already one of the youngest in the world, the average age of the aircraft being just four years old. As new aircraft enter the fleet, other aircraft will be phased out, making the average age of the easyJet fleet even younger.. .. .By 2004, the easyJet fleet will consist of 48 aircraft with an average age of under five years.. .. .Delivery schedule of 737-700 aircraft:. .. .2001 6 . .2002 9 . .2003 8 . .January to May 2004 6 . .. .The airline also holds price protection rights over a further 30 Boeing 737-700 aircraft.. .. .© 1997-2002 easyJet airline company ltd. .use of this site is subject to the terms of our acceptable use policy.. .. .So, which aircraft do you think they are really going to buy...? Not too hard to figure out is it?. .. .(Edited for typos). . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 08:54: Message edited by: Flight Safety ]</small>

[brabazon]

An Airbus order may not be out of the question. Consider that Airbus have had little success in the no-frills market - except JetBlue, but they are an exception and are not as no-frills as others. Coupled with the fact that there are few such large orders in the near future they will be very keen to get this business.. .. .Also how much spares/maintenance commonality is there between the 737-300 and -700? In some respects easyJet is already operating a 2-type fleet.. .. .So if Airbus are that keen for the business they could broker a deal which outweighs the advantages of staying with Boeing.. .. .I don't know how it's looking right now, but it's certainly not a no-brainer decision.

[In trim]

Flight Safety -. .. .You make the comment that "It's not hard to figure out what type they will buy", based on the current all-737 operation. But that is the whole point....... .. .If EZY go for more 737's now, then they are pretty much tying themselves in as captive customers to Boeing for the future and would not get EZY the best prices on any future orders.. .. .However, a mixed fleet (in the long term) of 50+ 737's and 50+ A319's are both 'stable' fleets in terms of size, economies of scale, etc. It would also give great bargaining power for the future and therefore in any future aircraft purchase would ensure an interesting negotiation and good price from both manufacturers.. .. .Also consider that what Airbus are offering is a modification of the 319 which has not previously been available. EZY are assessing this against the 737-700, but what if it is found to be a better aircraft for the EZY operation? For all the above reasons, EZY would surely be foolish to tie themselves to a single manufacturer?. .. .In trim

[Dan Winterland]

Another point is that the 320 is not best suited for the quick turnarounds required by the low cost operators as you need loading equipment to get the bags in and out of the hold. The 737 doesnt need this as they can be loaded at ground level.

[Spiraldiver]

But once you have the loading equipment, a 320 turns in less time with fewer ground crew than does a 319, or a 737. Might just pay for the extra cost of renting the loaders. I've seen fully loaded 320s turn in 20 min. Just not possible with the 319's and 737's.

[noflare]

If any of the low cost operators take on the Airbus types, I'd say GO would be the most likely? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

[moggie]

NOFLARE - care to share the info that makes you so certain?

[brabazon]

Spiraldiver. .. .Why would it be quicker to turnround a 320 than a 319?

[captmarvel]

GO had some folks down in TOU a few weeks ago, I saw them !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[corsaman]

Who wouldn't go down when the food and wine are soooooo good.........

[FlapsOne]

Spiraldiver. .. .You most cetainly can turn round a 737, with 130 plus pax, in 20 mins.. .. .It's proven several times daily at BFS,EDI,ABZ,GLA and INV.. .. .Can't speak for the 319 though.

[Percy De Havilland]

Don't know why anyone is bothering with Airbuses -everyone knows they just clog up the corridors cos they're soooooooo slow. Isn't that right detent?. .. .BTW - Has anyone seen my Porsche - I left my pe*is extension kit in it.....

[Hand Solo]

Sooner they buy 319s the better. Then when I'm in mine on the way back from BCN I won't be continually delayed by those 'low and slow' Easy 737s! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[In trim]

A few posts regarding loading and use of high-loaders......if easy get 319's they will bulk load to keep it simple and consistent with the 737.. .. .For the 737-700 easy normally use belt loaders due to the additional height compared with the -300, so no additional equipment required.. .. .Airbus holds easier to work in than 737's so loading should not be an issue.. .. .Any comments re 'Low and Slow 737s' presumably refer to the -300's in the fleet. As the debate is between -700's and 319's then this is irrelevant.. .. .In trim. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 17:24: Message edited by: In trim ]</small>

[mccar]

We turn 737's in twenty minutes every day. Quite easily done.. .. .Airbus 319 with cargo loading system? All very well until the day the hi-loader packs in at the rear hold door!. .. .Easyjet requested that drivable steps were not used on any of their a/c after they packed in once. So they gonna ban hi-loaders too if they cause a problem??? . .. .Could be fun times ahead trying to regularly turn a 319 in twenty minutes! But hell, we'll do our best!

[Hand Solo]

It's certainly do-able on a 319 so long as you have a loading conveyor or you can throw the bags on the back of a flatbed truck. We routinely turn a 319 around in 30 minutes and at least 10 minutes of that is waiting for the pax to disembark out of a single door then getting the cleaners on board to give the whole thing the once over then getting the catering on. If we ditched the catering and had the cabin crew clean from the back as the pax disembarked it'd be 20 mins no problem. Laading the hold could be a problem if the bags arrive on one of those tiny trolleys, but it appears there's not that much in it between a 319 and a 700 in that sense.

[Wino]

Southwest airline builds their schedule around the 20 minute turn, and their aircraft do 10 of them a day, frequently in much less time than that.. .. .There is no faster quickturn machine than a 737. If there was a lower operating cost machine out there, Southwest would fly it and transition their fleet. They watch EVERY penny.. .. .Cheers. .Wino

[QNH1013]

Out here we turn the 737-300 around in 25 min or earlier. And this is including pilots having to do a manual loadsheet for each flight. Boy it can be busy on the ground but certainly can be done well.

[In trim]

Tug4isfastest. .. .Please read my pevious post. No cargo loading system....just plain old bulk loading exactly the same as the 737's.

[LAVDUMP]

Any pilots out there flown both the A319/20 and the 737NG? . .. .If you were an easyJet pilot and likely to fly either the A319 or the 737-700 for the rest of your career (with multiple sectors every day for 4-5 days per week), which would you PREFER to fly? . .From a pilot's standpoint and not a baggage-loader standpoint, which would be preferable if you had to fly it for the rest of your career?. .. .Cheers

[Capitano]

LAVDUMP, answer to your question is dead simple, of course we (who have flow both A/C types) prefer A319/320. Operating Airbus is much simpler, quicker and thus you get less tired on a multisector day. The Airbuses are also more reliable with a lot more redundancy and you can trust that you can land that aircraft safely on almost any situation; when you lost one A/P the A/C is still cat 3a etc. Turnarounds are quicker as the cockpit procedures are simpler - this list of advantages in Airbus is endless. I do not know where, from operational point of view, 737 would be better than the Airbus. . .. .If there are any replys, the guys who do not have the relevant experience, please save us from the usual bulls..it regarding how faaaaaaantastic B737 is as it IS NOT. It is from the -50's with a few added cathod ray tubes as smokescreen.... .. .Cheers

[NorthernSky]

I commented some time ago, as the 737-NG was rolling out, that the real 'next generation' 737 had already been built, and not by the disgruntled spanner-hands in Seattle.. .. .The A320 family is the obvious step forward from the 737, and is a superior product.. .. .Admittedly it was not designed with the low-cost sector in mind. There will have to be compromises, and there will be a learning period. However, as Capitano states above, there's no comparison.. .. .Financial considerations aside (and these are so variable as to require their assessment on individual bases), only prejudice and ignorance stand between today's 737 operator and an Airbus order.. .. .Oh, and they are going to order 75 aircraft, not 'planes'. (This sort of thing leads to ranting, and ranting doesn't go down well with Mrs NorthernSky).. . . . <small>[ 26 March 2002, 00:01: Message edited by: NorthernSky ]</small>

[Wino]

Nope the A320 was a replacement for the 727, not the 737. The 727 was a medium range narrow body aircraft optimized for 800 mile stage lengths which is where the A320 starts to shine as well. The 737 really shines at 300-500 mile range flights... Boeing walked away from the Niche of 1830 planes that they built with the 727 series.. .. .Just look at capacity 727-200 189 seats in charter. A320 in charter 180.... .. .I have flown both aircraft and the dispatch reliability is better in the 737 than the A320. as to losing an autopilot and still being catIII, who cares? The number of real cat IIIs that are done ina year is minuscule. Its been a year or two since I did one for real. Some airlines find that it cheaper not to even have Cat III and pay the diversion. Furthermore as HUDs become more popular (AA and Southwest both use em) the airplane stays CAT III with no autopilots and none of the expensive maintencance of the couplers.... .. .And as to whether or not it is easier for pilots or sexier for pilots to fly one or the other, airlines really don't care. They only care about seat mile costs. The discussion starts and stops there and for a low cost quick turn short haul airline the 737 wins.... .. .Cheers. .Wino

[squawk 6789]

boring, boring boeing vs airbus again! . .. .money talks- who's getting stelios' billions, toulouse or seattle?

[Ozgrade3]

At Impulse in Oz, we turned around a 717....thats 117 pax, full bags off, same load on in 13 mins flat, as timed with a stopwatch.. .. .2 weeks ago we turned around a 727 freighter, 23 tonnes off, 21 tonnes on in 44 mins. 3 tonnes of the ongoing freight came off two metros that came in at the same time.. .. .Last night, 1,500kg offloaded a metro in 7 mins flat.. .. .Can anyone beat that.. .. .Edited cause I can't type for ^%&*(%&. . . . <small>[ 26 March 2002, 09:20: Message edited by: Ozgrade3 ]</small>

[OLNEY 1 BRAVO]

Re Wino's comments on the need for CAT3 operations, easyJet certainly need this capability due to the amount of fog at Luton.. .. .As for the use of HUD's, I think I'm right in saying that the Campaign Against Aviation won'tapprove them.

[jetgirl]

Trials ongoing on the HUD but since the CAA is not know for a quick ruling, dont expect any approval soon.

[EXCIN]

I flew both the Airbus A320 and the 737-300/400 and -800.. .Unfortunately I'm now type-rated on the 737 but if I had the choice then give me back that lovely A320 !!!. .Comparing both airplanes is not possible. You can't compare an old American car from the early '70 with a new model Mercedes!!. .Even the 737 NG is still an old aircraft. Never heard about ergonomics, small cockpit, still the old systems but with some nice screens.. .Increasing the speed of the 737 NG is nice but please do something about the cockpit noise. At M.79-.80 you simply can't talk to eachother in a normal way !!

[Belgian Sadness]

I flew 737/300-400-500, than A319-320-321. I only flew the 737NG (800) as a pax. Personally I prefer the Airbus. Once I got used to it, I wouldn't change back. It's easier to operate, there is a more modern philosophy behind. In Belgium there are a lot of pilots that flew 737 and 320. I only know 1 guy who would actually prefer to go back on the 737, and a couple that are not very enthusiastic about the airbus. The rest of them like it a lot (maybe a coincidence but the 737-addicts are all pilots close to retirement).. .I found an (quite old) article (link below) that describes the difference in generation i experienced when flying it. (the article is pro-airbus but i couldn't find a more neutral one).. .<a href="http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRHeft/FRH9611/FR9611b.htm" target="_blank">http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRHeft/FRH9611/FR9611b.htm</a>. .Enjoy reading

[caulfield]

"Once I got used to it,I wouldnt change back.". .Most current 320 pilots say this about the 737 as if its a matter of volition.The truth is they would find it hard to change back.You see the 737 is a "real" aircraft and the peckerwood who sits up front is called a "pilot",not a "systems operator" or "inflight manager".. .Those who say that the pilot-machine interface on the Airbus is superior have clearly lost the picture.Progress isnt about how revolutionary the flightdeck looks or about the size of the screens or the pretty colors.Boeing know the value of their product and have quite rightly resisted the temptation to mess up a good thing.Man-machine interface is clear and simple.There is no clutter..no second-guessing..no "whats it doing now?". .I agree Airbus produce a good product,but the guy or gal who sits up front is no longer a "pilot".

[kriskross]

Unfortunately, pilot preferences are of little import. The decision will be based soley on economic and what is thought 'best for the Company' considerations. I want what is going to be best, but have a lot of concern about the work involved in introducing a new type in a period of rapid expansion, and stretched resources.

[NorthernSky]

caulfield wrote, apropos of the Boeing,. .. .'Man-machine interface is clear and simple.There is no clutter..no second-guessing..no "whats it doing now?"'. .. .I laughed so hard Mrs NorthernSky had to bring me one of her herbal compresses!. .. .Has caulfield ever flown one? Ever had an engine out in one? Ever flown a non-precision approach in one? Ever sat clueless through the energy management process: speed bug drives to minimum clean, aircraft pitches to achieve MMO/VMO, then AFCS disconnects to CWS Pitch with nose well down and speed increasing through MMO/VMO?. .. .Still chuckling....

[Belgian Sadness]

caulfield:. .1. Did you ever have a type-rating on Airbus? If not what the **** are you talking about?. .2. Define "real aircraft" and "real pilot". After WW1 they flew without a trim, without hydraulic servo's, without FMC/FMGS, without pressurisation... Those guys must think you're a real pussy with your 737 no? I've flown F16: 9 G, air combat, air to air refueling, low level, formation flying... It does NOT mean I don't consider any-one who didn't not to be a "real" pilot either.. .I don't know what your frustration is, but please think before you write, real pilot.

[LAVDUMP]

I think anyone who flies an advanced aircraft like an A320/19 or a 737NG should consider themselves lucky with so many pilots unemployed... In terms of comfort, the Airbus wins hands down - it is far more ergonomic. However, most of easyJet's routes are short in nature - therefore, ergonomics may not be viewed AS important on short hops so long as the pilot gets to stretch a bit outside of the aircraft in between flights.... .. .In terms of automation, the Airbus wins in terms of "degree of automation" - it is far more advanced in relation to systems. The cockpit seems cleaner to me.. .. .My main question relates to working in this multi-sector environment on a 3-4 day-per-week basis in either of these two aircraft. It's like flying for Southwest (737NG) or JetBlue (A320) in the States - what's your preference in a multi-sector environment and why?. .. .Belgian Saddness - Very impressed by your F-16 background. Obviously very sorry to hear about Sabena and all of its problems - were you able to find another airline job in Belgium - and flying what type?. .. .Cheers

[Carnage Matey!]

Recently flown with a couple of guys in the multi-sector scenario who had experience on both A320 and 737-200&400. Not a moments doubt in either of their minds that they prefered the Airbus. Their reasons were a better and quieter flight deck leading to much less fatigue over a long day.

[Belgian Sadness]

LAVDUMP:. .I'm one of the lucky guys to be flying for Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium on A320. Conditions are not spectacular, but I'm flying; unlike many of my collegues.... .Thank you for your compassion. There has been and still is a lot of misery because of the demise of SN. On this forum the comments were not always very tactfull on this matter.. .. .About the comfort on board A320: What I do like is the small sliding table and the fact we fly without headsets in cruise (on 733-734-735 this was only a theoretical possibility because of the noise; on NG I don't know).

[Dutchie]

Regarding the noise on the 73 flight deck. I know a small trick that works on the 75 to help lower the noise maybe it works on the 73 too. It is allowed in the 75 although you really have to dig it up in the handbooks.. .. .When in cruise switch pack two off for a few minutes. Then when you restart it the packs will sort out the distribution again and the noise iss much better as less air will be directed to the flightdeck. Check with your own handbooks and don't try unless supervised by a mature adult.. .. .Any 73 drivers who can check it in their books to see whether it is allowed there too. It saves a lot of noise.... .. .Back to the topic: I understand that EZ has been checking out a 320 sim in AMS.....

[Wizofoz]

Whilst all this is interesting from a pilots point of view, can anyone answer this?. .. .Has any airline without an over-riding reason (e.g fleet comonality) chosen to buy A319/20/21s ahead of 737NGs since the NGs became available? I can't think of one, so I think the companies are voting with their cheque-books!!

[akerosid]

Well, how about SAA which selected the 738 after having 320s in its fleet, then - because of general dissatisfaction with the type, changed back to 32Xs. . .. .Both aircraft are more than sufficient to do the job expected of them. Speaking as a passenger, I'd go for the 737 or 320 with pleasure anyday. As a Jersey resident, I can't tell you how pleased that BA is shifting the RJ100s to MAN; it means we'll get 737s again from July. . .. .As to EZY, my gut feeling has always been for the 73G, but Airbus knows the potential growth in the low cost sector and that it needs to get the 319 ensconced in at least one of the low cost fleets. Compared to its potential size in 5-10 years time, its fleet is small now and it may well be the time to get its foot in the door.

[regor]

I know that new EZY 73-300 pilots are able to do their 73-700 rating after 6months. They then have to fly twenty consecutive sectors on the -700 to be able to get their dual rating.. .. .I had heard that EZY had been making enquiries as to the feasibility of their pilots holding a 73 and A319 dual rating. This sounds like it would be a bit of a nightmare operationally, but is it at all feasible, or legal for that matter?