Does an instructor always have to be PIC?

[IO540]

I am looking for an instructor who can train for an FAA IR, in a (presently) G-reg plane.

It appears that a lot of those that can, don't have JAA licenses so cannot be PIC in a G-reg plane (not for commercial work, anyway).

But if I am legal to fly that aircraft IFR myself (e.g. G-reg and have the IMC Rating), why can't I be the PIC, while receiving instruction?

The question has a wider applicability because I might wish on occasions to fly with an instructor (officially; I do it unofficially quite often) but AFAIK few instructors are able to instruct in a complex SEP (they've never flown one, though some may have flown a twin years before when doing an IR, now expired).

[BEagle]

"....why can't I be the PIC, while receiving instruction?"

That answers itself.

[mad_jock]

I suppose you could use the argument that your not recieving instruction for a UK rating so therefore you are PIC legally. The other guy is just a safety pilot.

Its not really the UK authorities you need to worry about its the FAA. And if they will accept it for the IR rating. Another method I have seen UK pilots use is run a FAA and JAR log book. I was told to do that whenever I go over to the states. Certain US FI's have a nasty habit of writing all sorts of ****e in your log book which they say they are legally allowed to do. Which one tosser tried to do to me. He was most upset when the log book got left in the bucket when i left and when informed that my proper log book was in the UK, went in a right sulk.

So log it all in both but with a change in PIC name then ditch the FAA one after you have finished the course.

You never know the FAA allows all sorts of weird and wonderfull ways of logging time.

I wouldn't bother asking the CAA just the FAA. The CAA if in doudt will always say no to anything to do with FAA licenses.


MJ

[Squadgy]

Not a direct answer to your question, but I'm amazed at how often PPLs think that if they fly with an instructor on board (as pax) that the instructor has to be P1 - they don't you can obviously take an instructor along as a passenger!

[Say again s l o w l y]

There have been occasions when an FI has been on board purely as a passenger when an incident /accident has occured and the FI had to take some of the blame even though they were not PIC!
The thinking is that the FI is likely to be far more experienced and should be monitoring what is happening and should intervene if necessary.
Personally I think this is a load of b*lls. The person in charge is always the PIC no matter if the passenger is Chuck Yeager! (Mind you I'd ask for help if he was there!)

[bookworm]

Tough one. Part 61.65 requires that you receive 15 hours of instrument training. That goes some way to answering the issue BEagle raised -- I can't see any regulation that requires that the person giving the training is acting as pilot in command.

But didn't this one come up in another place recently, in that we decided that the 15 hours of training could be your IMC rating training, as long as it is properly signed off?

[High Wing Drifter]

I don't get how anybody can be trained (told what to do and how to do it) and be P1 at the same time. Its a contradiction in terms...surely :confused:

Even checkouts must be logged at P.U/T and not P.1S as of old.

[IO540]

bookworm

Certainly one gets that credit for one's IMCR training, that's not a problem.

I had a conversation recently with someone who could not quote chapter and verse but there appeared to be a legal reason why any FAA license/rating training required an N-reg aircraft.

However this could just be one of the countless OWTs going around GA. I suspect this is the case because 2D wrote recently that any IR instructor (instructor rated to teach an ICAO IR) will do for the FAA IR, all of it except the checkride.

[StrateandLevel]

Most instructors require payment especially those who teach for an IR. If payment is received for the purpose of the flight then it is Aerial Work. To conduct aerial work in a G reg aircraft the pilot must be appropriately qualified and the aircraft appropriately certificated.

Provided the instructor and aircraft meet these requirements and the instructor is recognised by the FAA as qualified to give instruction for a FAA IR then a G reg aircraft can be used.

[Flyin'Dutch']

S&L is correct.

It is not the instruction in itself but the payment for this which makes it imperative that the instructor has the appropriate CAA/JAR tickets when instructing for the FAA/IR.

The FARs do allow a non FAA instructor to teach but only outside the US. You will however need to be signed off to be 'checkride ready' and this will have to be done by an FAA instructor.

Mind you having been through the system myself I would think you would be less well prepared for the examination if you would not at least have had some exposure to someone who knows the system from 'within' as the examination with the oral and checkride is a bit different from the CAA/JAR format.

FD

[False Capture]

When I'm instructing - I'm P1/PIC/captain/commander.

Before a flight gets underway you must be certain about who is captain and therefore, responsible for appearing in court following any incident/accident. I make sure ALL documentation is in order (especially the insurance) before accepting the a/c and signing the tech-log as captain. Ultimately it's my career as a professional pilot and instructor that's at stake.

[2Donkeys]

I suspect this is the case because 2D wrote recently that any IR instructor (instructor rated to teach an ICAO IR) will do for the FAA IR, all of it except the checkride.

That is true, except as FD qualifies, the three hours in the 60 days prior to the test has to be given (and signed off by) an FAA Instructor.

2D

[bookworm]

Most instructors require payment especially those who teach for an IR. If payment is received for the purpose of the flight then it is Aerial Work. To conduct aerial work in a G reg aircraft the pilot must be appropriately qualified and the aircraft appropriately certificated.

I think S&L has picked up an important issue here. If you are commander and you pay someone else for their services in respect of the flight, the flight becomes aerial work. That means that the commander, you in this case, needs a CPL.