Do you like being instructors?

[Tiger_ Moth]

The general opinion seems to be that its better to be an airline pilot than an instructor. Obviously in most cases it's better paid but is it actually better?
I think it would be more interesting and fun to be an instructor, you get to do more hands on flying and you dont end up with flying at 3.00am ( mostly ). You also get the satisfaction of teaching others to fly and get to hang around small airfields, which I like. I think it would be great to be an instructor and a lot more fun than being an airline pilot. Am I wrong?

[Kermit 180]

Tiger, personally I enjoy instructing, flying light aircraft and 'hanging around' airfields, but it is hard to financially survive on it.

There's been debate for some time over whether instructors are valued enough. They have large responsibilies in ensuring people are taught correctly and are exposed to as many variables as they can be during their training. The student, once holding a licence, is going to be responsible for themselves, aeroplanes, passengers, and people living under their flight paths.

Instructing is seen by many as a step to gaining more experience in order to get an airline job. This is unfortunate, as instructing can be very self-rewarding. That attitude exists because training establishments do not pay good wages to instructors. If they did we might see more professional instructors and fewer people electing to just hour-build to get an airline job in order to survive off flying. The unfortunate side of this would be the associated increase in the costs of training to cover these expenses.

At the end of the day it is a rewarding job, one I enjoy very much, and I will endaevour to enjoy as much of it as I can before the day comes when I am forced, through financial pressure, to go air transport flying.

Kermie ;)

[Luke SkyToddler]

Amen Kermie, you've got it in one. The actual poling the aircraft and interacting with the students, I love it, I could do it forever.

However the constant staring in the face of financial ruin, and the totally contemptible you-are-a-low-cost-commodity-to-be-screwed-for-all-you're-worth approach taken by flying school management in many places, makes it a bit harder to swallow.

[GT]

Tiger_Moth,

I love it! No, honest, I do. It's brilliant fun, quite frankly. It's just a shame the pay's not better. Are you thinking of giving it a try?

GT.

[You want it when?]

As a low (OK 6) hours PPL stude, who has come late to flying (mid 30's) there is no way I could afford to become an instructor both in terms of hours building to become competent, but more importantly in the drop in pay. However I love to fly, (but it is such hardwork at the moment :rolleyes: ) I'm a good businessman with reasonable credit access - what are the economics of running a flying school - not to ATPL but just PPL / IMC standard? If I could fund two mid / late 70s C150 / C152 how would the costs stack up, any ideas on rate of returns? Serious questions here, if this is a viable business then what are the operating costs likley to be?

Any help / comments appreciated. :p

[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]

[A and C]

I love instructing but the job that can pay the morgage has to come first ,but i think that the students benifit from the fact that i dont do it for the money or to get the hours to get into an airline.

[Tiger_ Moth]

Well GT, id love , love to be an instructor but I dont have enough money to become one. Even if it was a real struggle, if I could survive on it, id prefer to be an instructor than an airline pilot because it would be a job that I really , really liked. Getting paid to fly!
I used to think that an instructor was a really respected job but then I found out it wasnt so. However I think it should be.
Some instructors, CFIs can get decent wages cant they?

[chicken6]

I love instructing and also think Kermit hit the nail squarely on the head. I am currently one month into the other side of the moving-on decision, although my current job involves instructing as well as flying. I made the decision to move on primarily because of money, but specifically looked for a job with not just twin flying but instructing as well, which we have in abundance.

So in answer to the question, yes I do love instructing and wish there was a way to pay the people whose heart is in it what they are worth. I don't really want to give it up completely, but I'm weaning myself off it so I can get enough money stored away for when I come back to it after the airline thing.

[foxmoth]

You CAN have the best of both worlds, just because you are an Airline pilot does not mean you have to give up your instructors rating, I still instruct in spite of flying as an airline pilot, and because of my experience tend to end up with the more interesting work.
Much more difficult is fitting the family in if you have one, and then you really need the airline salary.

[Enigmatic]

Nah! Its cr@p. I only do it fer de money. :D

[Night Rider]

I personally love instructing - the only reason I don't do it for a living now is because the school I worked for, although very reputable, like so many school's didn't pay very well. I still love instructing (and now examining) on a part-time basis.

Instructors are definately under-rated. I think that part of the problem is due to the amount of old instructors around. By old instructors, I mean people who had a PPL and got a BCPL on 'grandfather rights' and who have never actually sat a professional piloting exam in their life ! These people are what I tend to call 'Sunday afternoon' instructors. They don't realise that by not having a full professional license they are taking work away from the new generation of instructors who have had to go throught a lot of exam's (both flying and written) to get their instructor rating.

I know quite a number of instructors who teach with a BCPL issued on 'grandfather rights'. A few are O.K., but most of them have massive gaps in their aviation knowledge. The commercial examinations certainly separate the men from the boys !

People's attitude towards instructors is changing very slowly. Good instructors are valuble people and should be professional in every respect, including salary.

[ 26 July 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]

[ 26 July 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]

[DB6]

I would hazard a guess that if you offered pilots the option of instructing or flying an autopilot for the same money, a lot would go for the instructing. For real flying it's hard to beat but then again you don't end up in some exotic tropical paradise (like Gatwick) at the end of the day. I personally love it and have chosen the option of going for the (albeit higher paid) instructional job over the airlines. The only downside is it's not in Scotland.

[BEagle]

Let's say you were a small organisation with 6 aircraft and flew them for 250 days of the year, getting 4 hours a day out of each aircraft. That's 6000 hours total which is probably extremely optimistic when weather, unserviceabilities, routine maintenance etc is factored in. Your cost price is probably about £70 per hour. You then need to add a profit margin and something for FI salary. If you had 6 instructors at £30K per annum each, that means £180K in salary costs - or an extra £30 per hour to be added to each flying hour if you're going to recover the salary bill directly from the customer before you start to make any profit!! Hence all the other income streams needed - fees, subscriptions, merchandising....but the demand is non-linear, so if you double the price you won't get half the customers! So you probably check what the opposition charges, guess how many hours you're going to fly in the year, see what income that would yield and then see what salary bill you could afford to pay. Then you divide that by the number of FIs you need.....and end up not being able to pay them very much without driving all your customers elsewhere.

How else could you improve matters? Getting rid of VAT on fuel and flying training and getting rid of fuel tax would help considerably; £27 per hour is about what the fuel costs to buy - more than half of that is tax! An extra £14 per hour available to use for FI salaries would give another £14K to each FI - and an annual salary of £44K wouldn't be too shabby for SEP instructing - but then there are lots of other 'employment' requirements to worry about if you are employing full-time staff.......

[Balance!]

And of course you may wish to have an operations person receptionist/telephonist which would add to your financial woes and then of course lets not forget the mountain of CAA paperwork necessary and the fee involved in maintaining the your RTO status. oh and don't forget the premises costs. :)

[FNG]

Night Rider, my irony circuits have fused in the sultry heat of this afternoon, so if you were on the wind-up, well done. If not, here is my po-faced response to your post above

Suppose that I want some basic ppl instruction, refresher training, differences, aeros etc. Suppose also that I have no intention of ever flying for reward and wish only to pursue aviation as a hobby, but one in which I aim to perform to the best standards. Suppose that I can choose between a guy with lots of exams and, lets say, 600 hours on C150s/PA 28s plus some time on twins, or a "Sunday afternoon" guy who has 4000 hours, 40 types and knows who Geoffrey de Haviland was to boot.

Guess which one I'd choose?

NB this is not intended as any form of slight on the many excellent instructors going through the ATPL system. Although my main instructor was a Sunday afternooner (his day job is in military flight safety so you can see what an amateurish sort of chap he must be), I also flew with two hour-builder guys, both excellent pilots and committed teachers (one is now in a 737, I've lost contact with the other guy). My point is that you should not be so ready to discount the contribution made to GA by the Sunday afternooners, many of whom have a background in and commitment to aviation every bit as valuable as anything the well-examined have to offer.

If we're talking men and boys, does passing commnercial exams equip you safely to land a Tiger Moth in a cross wind or, better still, teach someone else to do that?

[camrich]

You all have interesting comments however one thing that really annoys me is the attitude from some pilots, that you've made it when you get into airlines, but if you are a lowly instructor you are either waiting to get into airlines or you've been rejected by airlines. Excuse me not everyone wants to work for airlines, and instructing should be considered a career in itself, not a mix of wannabees or hasneverbeens! Instructing particularly on more advanced aircraft, multis turbines etc takes a lot of skill and expertise, and this should be given the recognition it deserves.

[Si]

Waht kind of salaries are we talking here for a restriceted FI, I ask becasue at the moment i am 19 and just about to embark ont he modular route for my CPL/IR, and after I think i will become an instructor to gain experience for the required number of hours before a become a FO. Hopeflly I will still be able to live at home whilst i do it.

Cheers

[Kermit 180]

Si, don't expect a wage or salary of any significance. I note you are going to become an instructor to build hours. When you do this, you may find it hard to focus purely on instructing to your best ability (ie you may be tempted to nurse your logbook).

You may like to also research for other options such as parachute dropping, scenic flying, etc. They may pay about the same and have similar hour building opportunities.

Kermie ;)

[Night Rider]

FNG,

Firstlt, my posting was'nt a wind-up.

Secondly, I should make it clear that the point I was trying to make is that the holders of PPL licenses who LEGALLY cannot gain financial reward from flying aeroplanes are not helping people who are trying to make a living in GA.

To use an analogy, how would you feel if I set up a business as a barrister (with no qualifications in this field whatsoever) and started pinching business from you.

The examples of instructors you gave in your reply were, to say the least, extreme. At NO TIME did I suggest that all 'grandfather rights' BCPL holders were lacking competence or knowledge. Some of these people that I know are good instructors, but it does'nt hide or compensate for the fact that they are not really proper commercial pilots. To get back to my earlier point, It's like me becoming a barrister without going to university! Thats how silly the situation is!

Your man with 4000 hours and 40 types is NOT necessarily a safer pilot or better instructor and it would be foolish and naive to think that he is. Yes, he is probably more experienced than most pilots, but then again so were the pilots that flew the B727 into the mountains on Tenerife!

And as for the hours builders you mentioned, if one of them is on a B737, then he must have SAT and PASSED the ATPL exams and commercial flight tests - so whats your point ?????

The point I was making in my orogional posting is that it is difficult to justify allowing a group of people to fly professionally when they are not qualified professionally.

Here endeth the lesson.

[FNG]

Night Rider, you appear unwilling to accept that any pilot, no matter how experienced in the practicalities of flying, can ever be "professional" if he/she has not taken certain exams. Such a pilot is, you say “not really a proper commercial pilot”. Perhaps he/she does not want to be.

I do not suggest that flying a lot is in itself an indication of safety or competence, but suggest that it is equally artificial to equate the passing of exams with quality as either pilot or instructor. If experience will not save you from piling into a mountainside, will exams?

I don’t think that I was making a point about my instructor who now flies 737s other than that he was a good instructor. I referred to him in order to make it clear that I was not having a go at hour-builders whilst singing the praises of gnarled folk-hero instructors. The bloke I referred to was a very good example of the great many who make a contribution to GA whilst en route to an airline job.

Re your barrister analogy, I know several very successful barristers who entered the profession other than through the conventional university route. This does not make them unqualified or “unprofessional”. They couldn’t practice unless the profession’s regulator allowed them to, just as no one can teach flying without satisfying the regulator that they are up to the job, and renewing their rating on a regular basis.

So, why such a downer on the (really rather few) Sunday afternooners who are legally qualified and rated to instruct? They aren’t competing with the majority of instructors, and the notion of a wave of blithering grandads stealing the crumbs from the “professionals” is I would suggest, exaggerated.

[Kermit 180]

At the end of the day if you can fly the aeroplane accurately and safely, you enjoy it, and you can teach, what or where is the problem? The differring views FNG and Nightrider have are because of confusion over what 'Professional' means. By definition a Professional pilot is a CPL or higher holder. Any pilot, regardless of licence, can and should always have, a Professional outlook to aviation.

Kermie :rolleyes:

[EGKA]

Well I like being an instructor and am looking to make a full time job out of it.

My probelm is the Airline pilots who wanted to move on to the "jet" job and like the idea of coming back and pinching the work of the full time instructors.

And, what above this NPPL I hear that ppl pilots will be able to teach it.

[foxmoth]

FNG- I would think anyone who has been instructing now without doing a BCPL has enough interest in just instructing that they will be interested enough to be GOOD instructors.
EGKA - those of us that are flying airlines are not trying to take jobs away, just put something back into aviation, personaly i try to make it that i do NOT undercut those that are trying to make a living from instructing.

[FNG]

foxmoth, I agree with your observation, but I suspect that Mr Hasselhof may not. Kermie, I agree that the term "professional" tends to get bandied around without much regard for precise meaning. What do you think, talking-car bloke?

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

The subject of "professional" versus "amateur" instructors was hotly debated previously on this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum2/HTML/009354.html


Sadly I think there is the potential for a fair bit of conflict amongst all types of instructors.

[Kermit 180]

Well it started as a simple question. Do you think we've said enough negatives to actually put TigerMoth off becoming an instructor? Come on, some postives would be great. Its a cool job, sure beats flying a desk.

Kermie :D

[Night Rider]

FNG,

Thanyou for your reply. I don't want to get into an argument on this subject as there is no "right" answer in this matter - our opinions are equally valid.

I have considered what you have said in your replies and I would like to share with you a few thoughts,particularly on the situation at my airfield.

I work at an airfield roughly in the centre of the country. On the field there are 4 flying schools and at thoses schools there are about 20 flying instructors (some part-time, some full-time). Of those instructors, only 4 (just under a quarter) are instructing on 'grandfather rights'(GR) BCPL's so I take your point about them being in a minority.(actually, those 4 are the CFI's of the 4 schools!)

To be fair, I think my mind may be slighty poisoned towards certain GR BCPL's anyway. I know 2 of the 4 mentioned above quite well and they are ALL of the opinion that just because they have been instructing donkey's years and 1000's of hours on C152's (flying around the local area in nice weather) they deserve a full CPL. This attitude really p*ss*d me off. How arrogant of them to think that they deserve the same qualification as me when they hav'nt been near a CAA exam room or IR flight test. Not one of them has a good word to say about anyone with a CPL/ATPL. Basically, I think it boils down to jealousy !
(One of them has sat the CAA CPL exams but failed them all - so he went back to instructing and tells everyone who asks that "he never wanted to be a commercial pilot" anyway!)

I think there is also a lot of truth in the point raised earlier about GR BCPL's being more dedicated to instructing. They need to be, as they are'nt qualified to earn from any other kind of flying!
Its a funny old world. I don't want to make life difficult for anyone and I am definately not suggesting that one pilot is better than another. I accept that the remaining GR BCPL's are the survivors of the "old system" and are basically licenced and competent to do what they do.
I also think it is worth remembering that the rules have now been changed for a reason. Clearly, the powers that be have decided that instructors should have "CPL level knowledge" before being allowed to instruct - that says something. The CAA obviously think this level of knowledge is necessary to be competent instructor.

The GR BCPL's are gradually dissappearing with the implementation of the new regulations and we are slowly approaching a world where instructors have received basically the same level of training, the minimum training having been increased.

My origional posting was NOT intended to offend any GR BCPL holder's and I was definately not 'taring them with the same brush' so to speak. I have a great deal of respect for them and their efforts. Circumstances and history have seen to it that, where instructors are concerned, we seem to have one set of rules for one, and one set of rules for another, which is a little unfortunate. Having reflected on my thoughts, I accept that they have benefitted from the changes in licensing which occured 20 years ago (their GR BCPL's were granted on "transitional arrangements" and the wording in their licenses states this clearly) and I do not hold it against them. Times are changing, and these people should accept that if they want to "move on" to other things (airlines, panel examiner etc...) they will have to do the same exams and tests that the rest of us had to do. They have not, by any stretch of the imagination, earned the right to run past the hoops instead of jumping through them!

On reflection, I think my origional posting was largly triggered by a few very self-opinionated GR BCPL's who have a very arrogant and mindless idea of what makes a full CPL/ATPL and what does'nt. Is'nt it an unusual and unauthadox state of affairs when the instructors at a particular school are more qualified (and in many cases more experineced) than the CFI, as is the situation at our school. Food for thought.

Other views and thought's are eargerly awaited.

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Night Rider ]

[FNG]

Night Rider, thank you for your reply. Peace. It sounds as though you have had bad experiences with a few (and hopefully they are very few) dodgy grandad types, just as others have had bad experiences with a few (and hopefully these also are very few) inexperienced hour-builder types who have questionable flying skills and little or no interest in instructing. We can't generalise about what makes the best sort of instructor from experiences of these individuals. Grandad Geezers who have logged zillions of hours of straight and level in spamcans were not the blokes I had in mind when referring to the respectable Sunday afternooners, just as I'm sure that gold-barred 19 year olds were not the blokes you had in mind when referring to exam-qualified professional pilots.

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: FNG ]

[chicken6]

EGKA

I don't want to "pinch" anyone's job when I come back to instructing, rather I was hoping to employ a few more of the genuine teachers in the world to teach flying, and including perhaps those who actually don't want to fly at all but are quite happy to teach ground school. eg. engineers to teach Air Tech, ex navigators to teach navigation. etc. If you see it as having a job 'pinched' then I disagree with the opinion that the world owes anyone a job. Are you deliberately trying to get rid of anyone with any experience doing the work?

And Kermit 180 - you want some positives. Here's one, I was flying a bunch of doctors and a med student the other day and the weather was fine and the sea was blue and the sky was also blue but with some cirrus waaaaay up there for perspective and the hills were vivid green and he looked at me sitting there in the cruise and said "you've got the best job in the world". And I said, "yeah, the best bit is when I teach someone well enough that they can enjoy it on their own, then they come back and tell me about it, again and again and again". :p

[Kermit 180]

Chicken 6 - WUNDERBAR

Its a wonderful feeling isnt it, to see your hard work turn into fruition.

Kermie ;)

PS: Your idea about the engineers teaching tech, etc - brilliant.

[hdaae]

As far as making Flight Instruction a living. Its really hard to do it economically
unless you get yourself into an abnitio program were you train cadets for a airline.
Ive been a flightinstructor at another flightschool than the one Im currently working at now, and I were barely able to survive. Then I got a job training cadets for an airline, and the pay increased to a quite acceptable level, plus my workday changed from 7 days a week at any time during a days 24 hours, to a normal 5 days a week from 0800 to 1700 kinda job.
At my first job I were close to getting mentally and physically burnt out because I worked long hours with little in return moneywise. Idelogy gets you only so far. Everyone have to be able to afford food.
Then I got into the ab nitio training program, and here we have instructors with thousands of hours and a wealth of knowledge that would get a job in an airline with little problem, but enjoys instructing so much that they dont even consider quitting instructing. Some have even been flying in the airline, grown tired from it and returned to their roots, flight instructing.

Bottom line. Living ONLY from flight instructing is usually quite hard, unless you get yourself into a solid company with an cadet training program. Here you will get ALOT of pressure from your bosses, but in return you get a fairly normal life and a pretty good pay.

PS: Im working in USA (Norwegian citizen, but still quite happy with were I am right now.)