Tutor Grounding

[Hummingfrog]

Sitting out here in the N Sea and wondering if the Tutor is still grounded and if there have been any initial findings after the hub failure. Will I get to fly on Summer Camp?:confused:

HF

[airborne_artist]

it's being discussed here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135794&perpage=15&pagenumber=3)

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Forgive my ignorance but why has the Tutor been grounded?? or is it a little too sensitive to discuss here. Is it anything to do with the UAS forced landing last week?

Cheers

DS

[airborne_artist]

DS

Check the link in my post above.

In essence the forced landing seems so have been caused by the prop de-laminating, or similar. All Tutors grounded while they work out what the problem is, how to test the remaining props etc.

The process seem to be taking longer than first hope (a first, surely).

[Roland Pulfrew]

AA & DS

The fleet has been grounded since 30 June and it was caused by an entire blade departing from the propellor hub. IMHA - not good!!:uhoh:

It could be a long grounding, just when all the UASs are on "Summer Camp". :rolleyes:

Bring back the 'Dog!!:ok:

[BEagle]

Bring back the 'Dog? You'll want to bring back real Summer Camps, increase the flying hours, stop the silly streaming idea, get rid of FTRS instructors, get back down to 250 ft at low level, reintroduce the PIFG....even own your own RAF military trainers. Whatever next??!!

No, that would never happen. The Contracter Owned Military Operated Plastic Spastic, aka Das Teutor, is the result of a Bold New Initiative, a sound Management Vision, ain't it?

Well, isn't it??

[PPRuNeUser0172]

been a tough week Beags??!!!

Its called progress............apparently!!!

DS:ok:

[Hummingfrog]

Well I hope they get the thing fixed by mid August when I'm due to "give up my free time for the youth of today" :D or hobby flying as my daughter calls it. The Tutor is a good a/c for our AEF role, the Chippie was fun to fly but with some short cadets all they saw was the DI staring them in the face!! The Bulldog was better but was showing its age at the end. While "Das Tutor" is fun to fly, is fast, climbs well and is easy to aerobat. It is just a pity that it sheds propellor blades:uhoh: !!

Oh and Beags I found my PIFG "wings" the other day -happy days on NUAS.

HF:D

[BEagle]

Week was fine, thanks DS - except for the f*****g weather!

And HFG - those were PFB wings, not PIFG!!

[Hummingfrog]

Beags - Crikey I knew that Newkie Brown had long term effects but I didn't think it would show so soon;) . It all becomes clear now. I seem to remember that my PIFG gave me a MDH of about 1500ft on the CADF procedure at RAF Ouston but off course we weren't allowed above cloud in the good old Chipmunk! (funny old thing we have only just been cleared to go IMC in Das Tutor!!)

Happy Days:ok:

HF

[Oggin Aviator]

I'm sure I got PIFG wings, as well as PFB wings when I did it as a stude. It was a while ago now so I may be mistaken.

I think we were cleared solo through 1500' feet of cloud but only on one heading and under a RAS or radar control from Warton - Woodvale didnt have any radar services. Never got to exercise this privilege as I left just after getting the PIFG.

Solo student breaks were fun tho' :D

Oggin

Kinloss ATC to SB (who later ended up at ISK as a nav) returning solo with a loose fire extinguisher in the 'Dog: Pan U xxx, confirm gear down?
SB: Down and welded, Pan U xxx

[BEagle]

Well, I sent one of my girls off to do a solo radio aids navex above 8/8 cloud after she'd passed her PIFG.....she did fine and came back with loads of confidence in her abilities!!

On the Chippie my PIFG test in September 1971 was an ACR7 approach into RAF Andover.... Happy days - and we even had a reasonable sized air force then!

[Fliesty]

Hummingfrog

is fast, climbs well

Dream on!!

Anyway the Tutor is grounded until at least the 19th. However NDT starts on Tuesday at a place somewhere in Lincs (apparently) then somewhere further south.


I dont know about bringing back the Dog, but bringing back a Serviceable aircraft would suffice for now.

Happy Holidays to all of the Tutor Pilots out there:ok:

[Hummingfrog]

Fliesty

Have you flown the Chipmunk? Compared to that Das Tutor is supersonic!!It even outperforms the Bulldog especially getting back onto the ground quickly after cadet aeros. The only thing I can criticise is the wide canopy arch which blocks off a fair amount of sky!! In the UAS role it may be different.

HF

[BEagle]

OK - it comes down quickly....

Does Das Teutor have a roll rate (apart from trick flicks) anywhere close to that of the 'Dog? From what I've heard, that isn't the case by quite some margin.

[Skylark4]

Come now Beagle. The Tutor is a good aircraft as was the Bulldog in its time but its time is past. I have asked you before,"Why don't you have a Bulldog in your own flying club/school?" And the answer:- "It's too expensive." It's too expensive for the RAF, too.
Who is the idiot who chose the Grob 115 E over all the other contenders? Collectively, the RAF in the form of various involved pilots and the staff at Cranwell. If it's really that bad, then it's a self inflicted injury.
Who put the problematic propellor on the aircraft? See answer above. When originally presented, I understand it had a two blade prop, presumably the same as is used on the 'D' model which doesn't have a problem as far as I know. Cranwell wanted the three blade prop reputedly so that they could slow down faster and make the first turn off the runway. Thats what I heard. You prove me wrong.
Because of the three blade prop, studes are taught to move the prop to 'coarse' during PFLs, presumably to give a more realistic sink rate. I think three have been seriously damaged on landing so far after the stude moved the mixture lever instead. Self inflicted injury.
If you had the chance, you would operate Tutors instead of those antedeluvian PA 28s you have.
Are you prepared to defend your corner if and when that consortium you are involved with supplies and operates the replacement for that wonderful, incomparable, better than anything before or since, Vickers VC 10 Tanker.

Mike W

[Dimensional]

studes are taught to move the prop to 'coarse' during PFLs

UAS rumour control: not any more. Apparently someone on high is getting fed up with us bending das Teutors and so the latest dictum I heard is that we don't do that anymore. Although this may be complete nonsense as I'm not flying until August and haven't had this confirmed yet.

-D

[BEagle]

Mike - I have NO connection with the FSTA consortium to which you refer!

I most certainly would not wish to replace our cheap-as-chips 'antediluvian' PA28s with the Plastic Spastic. Or with the 'Dog for that matter. We have requirements which differ considerably to those of HMFC; not the least is that the training aeroplane should also be an acceptable tourer - 2 up and they have an endurance of about 5 hours. We don't need to have aerobatic aeroplanes and the cost/benefit of a VP prop rules out a 'complex' aeroplane variant for PPL-level training.

Were I to choose an aerobatic aeroplane, the 'Dog would be a potential candidate. BUT, as soon as someone damaged an unreplaceable canopy or windscreen, that would be it! That's the sort of thing which would makes it 'expensive'! As well as the cost of maintenance and the little matter of fuel consumption with that draggy canopy!

For private use I'd like to own a PA28R - and perhaps rent something more interesting for aeros if the fancy took me..

[ACW 335]

Dimensional - Its all true!

[EESDL]

That old adage of one needing a sense of humour, or they shouldn't have joined?

Picture the scene:
Studes on Summer Camp, many of them relying on this period to further their flying aspirations, chance to pull totty (delete as required).......Fantastic weather, met man wrong again.........
Upon hearing the woeful tale from our leader of the fate of Das Tuetor, the nearest they've come to flying all camp has been a lucky catch in the outfield during a Soft Ball game.........
Upon hearing the tones of something non-birdlike, all search the skies for the origin of the 'purr'.
Has Das Teutor been fixed, was the Plastic Spastic airborne again, defying its detractors? What foolish fellow was doing circuits, didn't they realise flying was banned, we're trying to play Soft Ball down here....
No.
One of the hapless QFI's had borrowed a Chippy so atleast some of the Studes could actually go flying during Camp!!
Another reason why you need a SOH if you want to join, a valuable lesson to all our Studes me thinks!!!!!!!

[Grounded So Stack]

EESDL,
How do you have time for Softball - is that approved PDT?

With the investigation/NDT looking to take us into August, does anyone have any bright ideas of time-filling genius?

How about:

Take the students to a beach, add alcohol and watch as a latter-day 'Lord of the Flies' ensues :E

Stack to the local
Stack to someone else's local
Deploy the female studes undercover in Iraq to ensure the dysfunctionality of terrorist cells (or is that BioWar?) :oh:

Anybody, Bueller, Anyone?

GSS

[airborne_artist]

With the investigation/NDT looking to take us into August, does anyone have any bright ideas of time-filling genius?

Come and paint outside of house (only 2 nm SW of EGUB)

[mbga9pgf]

How about getting the kids trained up for FRESCO II duty during their summer recess?

[6foottanker]

Plenty of flying and beer at EGVN if any (uhummm female) UAS studes want to drop by!!! I know quite a few have already, but where do you go after 6.00?;)

[Skylark4]

We are running a sweepstake at work on the date of the first flight of one of our own aircraft (as opposed to a Cranwell or factory aircraft). I have selected Sept 6, 2004, partly as that is my 43rd. wedding anniversary but it is also a reasonable guess in the circumstances.

Mike W

[airborne_artist]

Perhaps Ppruners can join in on a virtual basis.

I'll choose 19 September - it's the no.3 daughter's birthday

[Dr Falken]

I choose April Fool's Day.

Now where have I heard that date before?

[A and C]

A number of RAF stations have flying clubs , perhaps the MOD might think of renting the club aircraft for UAS students to use .

This could cover some parts of the training and not make the UAS summer camp a total waste of time from the flying point of view untill the Grobs get back on line.

[Dendmar]

....and so the Firefly goes on; the airspace round Cranwell is really quite free. Perhaps they should have bought a few!.....

[BEagle]

Certainly, Mr A&C, Sir. We'd be delighted to rent out our a/c and instructors to you. £150 per hour plus £50 per hour for the Flight Instructor. And we'll even teach you medium level navigation.... ;)

[allan907]

Buy them all an air ticket and send them over here. PPL instruction only $150 per hour = £58 per hour!

.....and we have damned near perfect weather

.....and virtually no air traffic

.....and an Outback Adventure

.....and reasonable 'totty'

downside......Cessna 172 and 150 Aerobat.

[pr00ne]

Seeing as all RAF EFT is now delivered by the UAS system, is there another bottleneck building in the Flying Training system again?

[airborne_artist]

I was an RN stude at Leeming in the late 70s - Bulldog serviceability plus lousy weather plus plenty of us (no defence cuts then..) meant that courses were late.

RN had some Chipmunks of its own, so it suggested to the Airships (who owned the airframes, the site, the groundcrew and 50% of the instructors) that the RN could take some of the studes and the course manual and finish the job on time.

Never have you seen so much happen so fast in the land of the Light Blue....

Perhap the RN should dig out the Chipmunks again (probably in the cupboard under the stairs at Yeovilton), and offer to take on the task....

[EESDL]

Any UAS been 'stood down' yet?

[airborne_artist]

Seeing as all RAF EFT is now delivered by the UAS system, is there another bottleneck building in the Flying Training system again?

But that will shorten the holdovers later on in the sausage machine, and so improve their stats?.........

[Slow-Rider]

"Any UAS been 'stood down' yet?"

Yep - 3 weeks.

[G-KEST]

Sure says a lot for the Tutor if it can throw a blade and not have the engine fall off with the resulting imbalance. I reckon there are benefits in having lightweight propellor blades. These things should not happen however the intensive use by the RAF has been certain to show up snags. Just look at the number of occurrance reports on the Slingsby for instance. Still not entirely sorted but thats how we learn. Bet the folk in the Tutor needed their green grow bags to disguise the results - I would have done.........!!!!
Cheers,
Trapper 69
PS - Why on earth does the RAF not use 2,500 rpm as a pitch setting in the Tutor? At this rpm the engine is happy at full chat on the throttle and the noise and wear is far less. Can anyone enlighten me?

[PIElotMAN]

G-KEST

PS - Why on earth does the RAF not use 2,500 rpm as a pitch setting in the Tutor? At this rpm the engine is happy at full chat on the throttle and the noise and wear is far less. Can anyone enlighten me?

The RAF DOES use 2500 rpm except when climbing! The initial thread on this subject, entitled Crash/collision near Boscombe highlights more info on this issue.

Anyway, CAA have stopped NDT on fleet for now as it was not approved by them. They have got to manufacture some more NDT equipment specific for the job, which will take approx. 2 weeks!!:hmm:

NDT may start in first week of August but no flying before August 9th (probably) and no full flying in short term!! 24 new hubs have been ordered and lead time on these is 4 weeks.

How long will this go on? Answers on a postcard please.:rolleyes:

[teeteringhead]

Could we perhaps persuade the fire-fighter chappies to have their next strike now , so we could use the UAS lot on the next Fresco:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Grounded So Stack]

Sir Pie-a-lot,
Not sure where you get your info from but the EFT world changed its SOP about 2 1/2 months ago. We now use 2400RPM "whenever possible" apart from the TO, climb & approach phases. This is in line with the Grob operating guidance and also reduces engine wear and tear - perhaps a bit late for certain component parts though?!?:uhoh:

G-KEST: Do you know something EFT & Grob don't?

EESDL: we're stacked too - fancy a beer?

[phantom2430uk]

Latest update just receieved over email sent down from the top.

Latest information on Tutors suggests that a return to flying in the
immediate future is unlikely. Suggested timescale hints at a limited return
to flying in 2 to 3 weeks time. However, this may slip further to the right
if problems are encountered.
Updates will be provided as more information is forthcoming.

So that would make it a limited return somewhere around the week/comm 9th August but may be later.

[PIElotMAN]

Grounded so stack,

I am well aware of the new limits with respect to setting rpm and have been using said limits since inception. (Upto the grounding that is:hmm: )

I was merely giving a direct response to an earlier post and then, as you will see, I refered them to the earlier thread where the rpm setting is covered more comprehensively.

Anway, I do apologise and I should have been more clear:{ :ok:

[Hummingfrog]

Just back from Hols. Doesn't look good for my AEF summer camp the last 2 weeks in Aug. :{
Is there a plan for everybody to regain currency when Das Tutor is cleared to fly again?
What is the latest news on when it will be cleared to fly again?

HF

[G-KEST]

Thanks for the update on pitch setting SOP's. Perhaps I was not clear enough in my earlier post. The IO-360 can absorb full throttle power comfortably at 2500 rpm so why not use this for the climb and aerobatics and the circuit to include rollers and go arounds. For cruise then 2300/23" is a good setting and will reduce fuel consumption.
The real point is that the sheer unadulterated noise from a Tutor at 2500 rpm is just antisocial and totally unnecessary.
Why do it if there is another option?
Cheers,
Trapper 69
:ok:

[Hummingfrog]

Just heard that AEF Summer Camps will not now happen as we can't expect our Tutors to be cleared to fly until Sep/Oct as Cranwell etc will get the 1st serviceable a/c.:{ :{ :{

HF

[50+Ray]

Firefly still works well, even in Gulf temperatures. As for numerous occurence reports I don't recall the need to submit one in my 3500hrs on type so far. Will anyone ever admit the Grob was yet another political bad buy?

[BEagle]

Quite so Ray! Our Chipmunks and Bulldogs were much more reliable, weren't they!

Although I'm not that much of a fan of the Firefly for aeros due to its poor roll rate (unless flicked!). I gather that Das Teutor is equally slow in roll....?? But the Firefly is a good aeroplane for teaching stalling and spinning, I will certainly agree.

Political blunder? No, surely not........??

[pr00ne]

50+Ray,

Political bad buy?

Not really, the RAF never bought them in the first place, it's a PFI so all the RAF buys is flight hours.

I do find it incredolous though how this deal saved Grob, allegedly they had laid off most of their staff and were on the way out, would ANY other country in similar circumstances have ignored the home grown offering and bailed out the overseas competetition like that? I somehow doubt it!

Can you imagine it;

" last minute French Air Force order saves Slingsby, Socata in dire trouble"

[AllTrimDoubt]

50+Ray

So how's the sunshine life? If you're who I think you are, then rgds from the ex-occupant of the office next to the ex-Mad Major...geddit?

[50+Ray]

I did not actually say the RAF bought the Grub, but it was an idiot in a light blue suit who lead the BRP. Other than that I agree with Pruune. Which unfortunate neighbour of the Mad Major are you mate?

[AllTrimDoubt]

50+Ray

Pm inbound with id!

[DB6]

The Jordanians et al must be having a bit of a titter at the RAF's choice of trainer. What with the IMC debacle, the aerobatics cock-up and now this, it's not exactly covering itself in glory. Did anyone else buy it I wonder?
BEagle, the one and only time I flew Das Boche Tutor I was stunned to find it rolled even more slowly than the Mighty British Firefly.
What, me? Biased? Never ;)

[kippermate]

DB6,

That was just my meaty thighs getting in the way of the control column!!

:ok:

Kipper

[DB6]

Ah, so that's who you are, Kipper. Well thanks again for the trip, hope you're not missing us too much at CF. Say hello to the Hanging Judge :ok: .
Not getting much in the way of aeros at the moment but the scenery's great around the Highlands and Islands.

[Pie Man]

Can confirm Tutors flying as one did an approach to Waddington.

Pie

[London Jets]

when will they be used back at the AEF's? or are they flying nationwide now?

LJ

[thejazzman]

our UAS has just been informed not to expect any student flying until September..... but not sure when QFIs are going to be able to start getting back in the green etc.

[usernothername]

Does anyone have an update on the status?

[PhoenixDaCat]

Sorry to be slightly off topic, but does anyone know where I can get hold of a cardboard photographic layout of the Tutor cockpit, similar to the ones the UAS/AEF used to have for the Bulldog, or indeed does anyone know if such a thing exists? Have I explained that well enough?

I've contacted the boss of 10 AEF, where my cadets fly, and he hasn't got one, but he does have one for the Bulldog.

My ATC unit is lucky enough to have a local RAFA which wants to spend money on it, and we want to build a realistic Tutor cockpit to go with the MS flight sim computer that we have, so as to ensure that the cadets get more from their real flights when they get them.

[small_dog]

From my time in a UAS, whilst we did have cardboard cockpits for the 'dog, we didnt have anything like that for the Tutor. We had to look at an A4 colour picture of the cockpit from the manual (which was of no use when trying to learn checks away from the airfield).

Not sure if this has been covered before, but if this is a PFI scheme, surely there is some financial compensation for the RAF from VT Aerospace/Bank of Scotland for the lack of flying hours being carried out, which could be used to perform the flying on a suitable a/c type (surplus USAF fire flies?)

[mbga9pgf]

They do issue full colour A2 prints of the Grob cockpit, was issued with one when It was brought into service. Not sure if they still do them, but im sure if you contact your local friendly UAS they may oblige... only prob is, the cockpit was 2d, not 3D like the tucano and hawk cardboard cockpits....

hope this helps :-)

mbga

[kitwe]

PhoenixdaCat

The A2 laminated Tutor cockpit illustrations come from the Graphics Department at Training Group Innsworth. I think they contract the printing out to a firm in the Manchester area. You might be able to get some through HQ Air Cadets.

There are at least 2 versions - one with the centre console (fuel selectors, throttle etc) and one without. They are not quite to scale, being slightly smaller than the real thing. Also, they are not photographic copies of the cockpit but are reasonable artwork representations. Finally, the Visual Media Department at Cranditz (run by SERCO) have excellent artwork of the Tutor cockpit but, although they can print large sheets, I don't think they can laminate much above A3. Good luck in your quest.

[BossEyed]

AAIB Special Bulletin here, with photos:

AAIB S3/2004 (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_030406.hcsp)

:uhoh:

[red 5]

I assume they must be cleared for flt now as a Grob is now flying the circuit at EGUY, has the fix been a temporary one or permanent.

[BigGrecian]

Some Tutors are flying. They've had to get some civvy test pilot in from Germany to test every one of them in turn! At Cranwell the Navs from 55(R) are using two Civvy (Yes I know the military ones are all civvy owned anyway) tutors after the QPNIs did a crossover to them.

[ACW 335]

The tutor was is full display mode at Shoreham Airshow today. Completed display with no problems. So maybe things are looking upish for the tutor fleet.