View Full Version : A plea to this industry's customers in North America and Europe

Indiana Jones
17th Sep 2001, 01:26
If you want to help in the Global fight against terrorism, then you can. You can help by continuing to fly our airlines, for thats what they the terrorists want, is for you to stop flying and aiding their fight in bringing down democracy and the free world.......so please,there is much work going on behind the scenes,keep flying, helpd us to be our eyes and ears, for we can not be everywhere, anything strange report at once, but keep flying and give the terrorists the finger if you are a Yank and two fingers if you are a Brit. Thankyou.

I know many journos read these pages.

Al Weaver
17th Sep 2001, 07:18
Well, I?m a customer who has typically flown 125k miles a year. I resent having an additional burden placed on myself to use this service (no curbside, restricted carryons, longer lines etc.). Such burdens will cause me to fly less to avoid the greatly increased pain. If you want me to continue to fly, then make the corrective action transparent to me as a passenger

Lama Bear
17th Sep 2001, 08:09

Aren't you the self-centered, egotistical little turd I've seen flying so often. Three over sized carry on's (so you won't be delayed with the little people at baggage claim), berating the gate agents should there be ANY delay??

Well buddy, things have changed! You can expect delays, inconvinence et. al. You had better take off your rose colored glasses and see that there are no "transparent" corrective actions.

I'm sure the cabin crews will miss your childish attitude. :mad:

Ignition Override
17th Sep 2001, 08:55
Based on a very short tv segment with Duane Worth (the ALPA Chairman), which I barely saw on tv today, there appears to be some influence from pilot unions such as ALPA, (maybe from the APA, FPA, Teamsters) on the redesign of cockpit doors, but it is very unlikely that we can influence anything else that the FAA does, as has always been the case. This is despite the FAA having been created decades ago by ALPA initiatives within the US federal government, in order to create some safety regulations for the industry, despite many of them (such as eight total hours in a hotel for solid sleep, shower, breakfast and checkin/out) being unacceptable minimums or (duty day) maximums etc for decades.

The FAA still seem to use their cost/benefit analysis to determine what should be changed. Pardon this remark, as I've used before on Pprune, but without numerous revenue passenger fatalities at one time, the FAA seems to never enact any serious recomendations from the NTSB (the transport accident investigation board), unless there is negligible cost involved, the idea of which is difficult to imagine.

If we had no pilot organizations, such as our US pilot unions, we would not even have a voice in any FAA decisions. We would then only be a large motley group of "rugged individualists" .

A uniformed First Officer who I not long ago flew with (on a twin-engine turbofan) was repeatedly scanned by one airport security employee while the FO noticed several pieces of luggage go by on the x-ray monitor with nobody else there to watch the monitor for suspicious objects. But then the security company would earn less profit if it hired or staffed more such employees, even at their minimum wages. This was just a very tiny tip of our "US airport security shield" problem-iceberg. And that clown was ignoring multiple objects due to a pilot in uniform, who had at least one company ID card in a cereal bowl by the x-ray machine, where anyone could have stolen it from him. And in this same airport, our employees who work on the ramp, including catering employees, were never required to go through x-ray machines here until a few months ago: only our gate agents, pilots and flight attendants were forced to! This was an FAA decision from years ago.

And this one small episode for that one pilot (not including many others) was a few years after police in Manila accidentally uncovered a chilling plot to set off powerful bombs in about a dozen US-registered jumbo jets in ONE DAY!

Why wasn't the FAA enforcing its job regarding x-ray screening (using some common sense) for the last several years (at least inside the airports) and why were the airlines allowed to hire "security companies" with such employees? Was the US Congress unwilling to give the FAA enough money for airport security, or was the FAA not requiring airlines to verify what security staff were doing (at least to stop the cranks and imbalanced), not that this could have prevented this week's horrific tragedies.

There are thousands of basic US employees at Burger King and/or McDonald's who reportedly earn about the same pay as US airport security employees. Should airport security companies have a much larger field of applicants from which to choose, based on much higher salaries, with a litle bit more prestige attached to the job description? An agent at Newark, NJ (where on hijacked plane departed?) said that the security companies at KEWR fire people every week, maybe several.

Pardon the long sermon, but this is meant FOR any media, US govt officials or laymen who read Pprune and are unaware of what pilots and flight attendants have often noticed for years and years. This topic is now receiving serious attention from our US government and the mass mediabecause many people have died, and for that reason alone.

[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

Phil Kemp
17th Sep 2001, 08:59

Your contemptible comments do not deserve any response from anyone. They say more about you, that anyone needs to know!

This response is civil compared to the language that I would like to use to you. :mad:

And Indiana, you are right!

Phil Kemp
17th Sep 2001, 09:37
Task Forces to Examine Air Security

By JONATHAN D. SALANT, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The federal government is asking private experts to come up with detailed recommendations within two weeks for making air travel safer.

Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta said Sunday he has appointed two task forces of nongovernment experts to report by Oct. 1 on improving security both aboard airliners and at airports.

The airliner task force includes a pilot, airline executive and plane designer and will focus on preventing terrorists from gaining access to cockpits. Current regulations require the cockpits to be locked during flights, but they are constructed in a way to allow pilots to break them down in emergencies.

The second task force was told to come up with new ways to prevent terrorists from getting aboard planes.

Before commercial flights resumed Thursday, two days after hijackers crashed airliners into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (news - web sites), airports put into place new security measures. Curbside check-ins were eliminated and only ticketed passengers were allowed in boarding areas.

Armed agents from the U.S. Marshals Service, U.S. Border Patrol and U.S. Customs were deployed at airport security checkpoints across the country.

More armed marshals were immediately assigned to airplanes, and spokesman Chet Lunner said the Transportation Department was working on a plan to train and deploy even more marshals in the skies. Officials declined to give any details on the program, including whether the marshals would be in uniform or plain clothes.

Mineta said late Sunday on PBS' "The News Hour With Jim Lehrer'' that 4,887 commercial passenger airplanes were in the air at 12:50 p.m. EDT Sunday, about 65 percent of normal for a Sunday afternoon.

Delta Airlines Chairman Leo Mullin told ABC's "This Week'' that he would support armed marshals on every flight.

"I think that we have to work very closely with the government to do whatever it takes, in a law enforcement way, to ensure that the American public has complete confidence in aviation,'' Mullin said.

And the Air Line Pilots Association (news - web sites) began advising its members to consider depressurizing the plane or taking drastic maneuvers to keep assailants off balance and away from the cockpit. Pilots have been taught in yearly training sessions to cooperate with hijackers.

"Our efforts must now turn to developing long-term, sustainable security improvements within our airports and the aircrafts themselves as we continue to provide all Americans the highest possible levels of safety,'' Mineta said.

Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) National Airport should remain closed indefinitely because its flight path is so close to the White House, Capitol and Pentagon.

"We have airports at Dulles. We have airports at Baltimore, which give a great deal more time for a fighter interceptor to do something,'' he said.

Mineta said his department was looking at how to operate Reagan National safely. Lunner said a consensus was building to require takeoffs to be southbound and landings to come in from the South, away from government buildings and monuments.

Mineta said he would regularly talk with members of the task forces. He said officials of the Federal Aviation Administration (news - web sites) and the Transportation Department would be working with them.

In addition, operators of oil and natural gas pipelines have been instructed to increase security, Mineta said. The instructions came from DOT's Office of Pipeline Safety shortly after Tuesday's terrorist attacks and ordered companies to both take immediate steps to protect the pipelines and develop a long-term plan to improve security of their systems.

The members of the airport security task force are Herb Kelleher, chairman of the board of Southwest Airlines; Raymond Kelly, former U.S. Customs Service commissioner and a former New York City police chief; and Charles Barclay, president of the American Association of Airport Executives.

The aircraft security task force consists of Robert Baker, vice chairman of American Airlines; Robert Davis, a former vice president of the Boeing Co.; and Capt. Duane Woerth, president of the Air Line Pilots Association.

FAA Administrator Jane Garvey said the agency was working with the U.S. Postal Service to allow a resumption of mail and package delivery aboard passenger aircraft. She said the ban could be lifted as early as Monday but that new rules may require that mail be screened.


17th Sep 2001, 10:11
......................... :mad:

Indiana Jones
17th Sep 2001, 10:40
Iomapaseo......there are many things I could say to you, some to the point, some that might raise a smile....but lets draw a line in the sand now with these people....I work for a US carrier in the UK,I'm a Brit, I volunteered back in 1990 to fly with US troops to Saudia, in some cases to within 10 miles of Kuwait, and when it was all over, I went back into Kuwait a couple of months later.I did it again in Somalia a year later as well on D day plus one, incoming fire for our 747 was expected on approach. I'm back out there today managing an airline thats getting people like you back home.

Give the troops that fought for your freedom in the Gulf,and Somalia, and all of the victims attributed to this terrible tragedy your respect and your support by flying your snivvelling yellow streaked arse across the world again.

Sorry, I got upset.

17th Sep 2001, 10:57
This is off the subject matter, but it's a nice e-mail that was sent to me....



I am the flag of the United States of America.
My name is Old Glory.
I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.
I stand watch in America's halls of justice.
I fly majestically over institutions of learning.
I stand guard with power in the world.
Look up at me and see me.

I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.
I stand for freedom.
I am confident.
I am arrogant.
I am proud.

When I am flown with my fellow banners,
my head is a little higher, my colors a little truer.

I bow to no one!
I am recognized all over the world.
I am worshipped - I am saluted.
I am loved - I am revered.
I am respected - and I am feared.

I have fought in every battle of every war for more then 200 years.
I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg, Shiloh and Appamatox.
I was there at San Juan Hill, the trenches of France, in the Argonne Forest, Anzio, Rome and the beaches of Normandy, Guam, Okinawa, Korea, KheSan and Saigon, I was there.

I led my troops, I was dirty, battleworn and tired, but my soldiers cheered me And I was proud.
I have been burned, torn and trampled on the streets of countries I have helped set free.
It does not hurt, for I am invincible.

I have been soiled upon, burned, torn and trampled on the streets of my country.
And when it's by those whom I've served in battle - it hurts.
But I shall overcome - for I am strong.

I have slipped the bonds of Earth and stood watch over the uncharted frontiers of space from my vantage point on the moon.

I have borne silent witness to all of America's finest hours.
But my finest hours are yet to come.

When I am torn into strips and used as bandages for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,
When I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldier, Or when I lie in the trembling arms of a grieving parent at the grave of their fallen son or daughter, I am proud.



[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: OneWorld22 ]

[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: OneWorld22 ]

17th Sep 2001, 16:22
I certainly will not let the tragedies of
last week affect my flying frequency.

To make security control as streamlined
as possible,clear guidelines as to what to pack,how to pack and where to pack it should
be made obvious to passengers at all contact
points ( Internet booking screens, on
ticket printing etc ).

Drill it into them until it becomes second nature !

18th Sep 2001, 00:24
A few years ago I did quite a bit of flying. 125,000 miles in one year. Thanks, but I'm going to stay on the ground for a while. Am I a coward for saying that? Sure, whatever you say. My colleague, Anna Allison, was on AA flight 11 on Tuesday. May she rest in peace.

Security at US airports is a joke. There's a lot of uniformed folks walking around the airports now, but we still have the security checks being done by people getting minimum wage. And there are so very many people with ramp access. Anyone else remember a couple of years ago at Logan Airport when a teenager climbed the security fence and wandered around the ramp for an hour or so? IIRC, he was finally apprehended on board an aircraft.

When the federal government has taken over security for all airports and there are armed sky marshals on all flights, then I'll be much more likely to consider flying again. Until then, I'll be very unlikely to get on an airliner.


Ignition Override
18th Sep 2001, 08:34
OFBSLF: Your anxieties are easy to understand, considering how often CNN and other tv channels re-play the attacks over and over again-watching it has become an obsession with many people.

1) One suggestion is for all of us to watch mostly other shows on the boob tube, or go to Blockbuster and rent videos, if no cable tv available or good old Time-Warner cable reception get erratic, as is usually the case here.

2)The other is to consider how many people are maimed or killed every day in their car. My car was "totaled" (luckily the insurance companies agreed on this) in July by somebody who hit us in the rear at 30+ mph-we had stopped for the last minute with the left turn blinker on, while waiting for a left turn.

3) Consider the very likely possibility that the traveling public will never again allow any group of self-righteous "holy-warriors", no matter what they threaten, to force all pilots from the cockpit controls in any airplane and cooperate quietly for a while. We could never again, as a profession, allow anyone to force both of us out, no matter what they do to anyone in the cabin.
This type of crime might be unlikely to repeat itself, especially with much-improved intelligence staffing.

Good luck on the roads and highways. The cemeteries are full of car accident victims: death is death, unless someone knows how to come back.

Indiana Jones
18th Sep 2001, 10:37

I am certain,knowing the people in our industry,.....that Anna would want you to start flying.........


18th Sep 2001, 10:48
Personally, I would have no problem flying tommorrow.
In October I am flying down to Arizona from Appleton, that is 3 domestic USA flights each way.
Am I looking forward to it? Yes.
Am I a little nervous? Maybe.
Would I cancel my flights based on last weeks events? No.

What happened last week was awful, it was tragic and unnecessary. However, the damage has been done, the attacks have been made and the point (if there was one) has been made. My personal opinion is that this is what the attackers wanted - to make people worried about flying. I don't think anything else is planned for the near future.

Personally, I would rather get to my destination in one piece, I don't care if I'm late, I don't care if I'm diverted. I just want to get there alive.

If dickheads like lomapaseo say they won't fly if they can't have the convenience that they are used to such as curbside check-in, then fine, they are probably better off staying away anyway.
Being from England, curbside check-in and family being allowed to walk up to the gate to see you off is unheard of.
We have to accept that airport security is important, but flying is still statistically safe.

Keep flying all!

Indiana Jones
20th Sep 2001, 01:14
Thanks 757 for the support........well four flights out today to the U.S., and the backlog of Americans has dried up. Our average no show factor today was 18%, and we had an average load factor of 72%....the airport overall at Gatwick was busy, hectic at times, so we in the U.K. appear to be flying still. To our friends in the U.S., pick yourselves up and get back out there, the world needs you to kick start aviation again.

20th Sep 2001, 01:21
.....as it has since 1903 (& 1927).

20th Sep 2001, 02:32
I agree that passengers should not let the terrorists win by being scared away.

However, between us I and my colleagues have flown many times since last Tuesday. There is absolutely no consistency. Some flights warrant complete searches of all carry on luggage and repeated verifications of identity. On others - same carrier, different airport or same route, different carrier - no effort is made to check carry on luggage or identities at all. Some searches are thorough, some cursory. This in Europe and America.

All reasonable people see the need for extra time to be devoted to security and are happy to allow extra time to check in. But they also expect that extra time actually to be devoted to increasing security. As an industry your response appears to be completely shambolic.

20th Sep 2001, 06:46
I'm a 100K+ flyer within in the U.S. and to and from Asia. I basically read that Iomapaseo responds to incentives, as do most consumers. (As far as the three-bag folks, why do I see them standing next to the brochures explaining the two-bag rule? As far as berating gate agents, those folks should never be boarded.) Yes it is more inconvenient now, it will become less inconvenient with experience.

My flights and trips this month were cancelled, and I've had a lot of meetings by conference call. We're all finding out that virtual is fine for a lot of things, but not conducting serious business. Next month I'll be with a group of 90 travelling to Tokyo. The trip is still on. And next month, and next month, and next month.

Look for another hit in business when war breaks out in a few weeks, but don't panic.

Another reasons airlines are hurting is the depressed U.S. economy. I think the U.S. economy is going to come back next year for several reasons, and with it business travel. In the meantime, we're all taking a hit for a few months. My small business is feeling it too.

Some of these airline layoffs are angling by the airlines for money from the U.S. Congress.

Final 3 Greens
20th Sep 2001, 14:00
Indiana Jones

My family have booked 20 sectors over the Xmas period for leisure.

A small action, but we won't let terrorists stop us flying.

Keep your chin up mate!

21st Sep 2001, 08:04
Dear airline friends,

I'm sad, I wish I could continue to fly but my company ordered a travel ban for non-essential trips. This would cover all internal meetings, training, conference etc. This now means that I'm grounded :mad: Yes I'm mad, I would accept that my cpy offers the choice not to travel to people who are afraid to, but by imposing this unilateral stop I feel they are giving terrorists exactly what they wanted.

We are a large british company, sometimes I feel that Winston C. words should be reminded to our management.

I would ceratinly be a bit nervous to fly again, but I would do it, for the sake of keeping our heads up.

I'm also appalled by the decision of some airlines to cut down people. What an easy move this is. Get governments to intervene, is the situation not exceptional enough?

But don't worry I will fly extra during holidays to support you. At least this cannot be prevented by my company.

Keep tight airline people, you are doing a great job.

A passenger friend

21st Sep 2001, 09:00
I am an SLF who flies 100k+ per annum here in the USA. I was in Chicago Tuesday last week booked to return home that night. Drove the rent car home instead on Wed night ONLY because I could not get a flight at all.

Left again on Sunday last, back to Chicago with return yesterday. Currently have 10 segments booked through end of Oct and I plan on being on each of those flights.

When I fly, they lose!!!

If I sit, they win - NO WAY I WILL LET THAT HAPPEN.

On my two DFW-ORD segments this week pax loads about 60% in Coach. Only this high because "my" airline (see my signature please) had cancelled the flight immediately before mine and booked those pax over onto my aeroplane. So, I am guessing here in the states that pax loads avarage 30-50% right now, but I believe it will get better.

Off to SJC this Sunday on the silver bird!

Thanks from this SLF to all you Crew (front/back all the same) for flying during these times. Love 'ya -

dAAvid -

21st Sep 2001, 10:55
I would agree with many on this thread - the events of 9-11 are no reason to quit flying. It is in essence giving in to the whole point of terrorism, using fear to affect your life. I also agree with many that there is a need to be consistent about security measures. Even the FAA website states that withing guidelines airlines will set criteria for access beyond sec. checkpoints. Come on - someone needs to stand up and set up a clear standard industry wide at least for us Yanks. Time for the airlines to make a real effort to deliver real security and not just a show!

Desk Driver
21st Sep 2001, 11:55

Oh I'm sorry in our quest to make sure that last week never happens again have you had to leave the business lounge a little bit earlier?? Attitudes like yours cost lives! Because until now your self centered complaining had been listened to by Managers & directors of airlines.

"No curbside check in" Oh Boo Hoo!

I'm sick of you "Do you know who I am & How much I've payed?" W**k**s!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Indiana Jones
22nd Sep 2001, 01:00
Thank you to all the travelling public for your support on this thread.

For those of you in the UK, the industry, since 11 Sep has strived to meet the increased heightened measures,..lack of appropriate and security cleared labour (security clearance can take up to six weeks)has put pressure on the system, but we are coping well now and many tasks are being completed and everything is a lot lot tighter,as you would expect. Hats off to all the security staff that have worked long long hours to get people away on their hols.

Our airports in the UK remain pretty busy and the next test will be OCT 1st, which for the transatlantic schedules is normally a very busy time as the fares drop Oct 1st, so normally every airline is full.

Update on myself, just been advised that I am on standby to go where ever if some of our aircraft are needed to move troops to a certain region.

Thanks again for all your support.

22nd Sep 2001, 02:26
I've just posted on the " Pakistani Airline Crew dumped" Thead before reading this....I am in the fortunate position of having a choice eg....I can curtail my business flying and my vacation flying and I shall certainly be doing so for a month or so ..or until we take the next Bin Liner hit. I've drawn my line in the sand ... but until the system is demonstrably in control....I'll go canny

Peter J

Indiana Jones
22nd Sep 2001, 10:08
PeterJ.......the end choice is obviously yours, I am half Jochenese mysel'...thought the Scots laughed in the face of terror...leave it a month and there probably won't be as much choice out there for you to fly....get out now,continue as normal.......

Indiana Jones
28th Sep 2001, 23:52
Thanks Mr Bush for taking the time to go to ORD this week and advising everyone to get back out flying. Say hi to Dad and Col, and if you bump into him, Norm as well.

29th Sep 2001, 01:25
Thanks for starting this valuable post IJ.
If only Joe Public realised he/she is safer in the air now than for the 2(?) years previous to Sept 11th, during which time those bastards were planning this. Now their element of surprise is gone. The pundits seem to think that if (please God no) there is another hit it would be something and somewhere completely different.