JetStar & QF pilots on same seniority list.

[Dexter]

Its just a matter of time, like Australian (the ole TAA).
The sooner is all the better for evryone.

[Chilli Muscle]

If Qantas domestic is soaked up over the next 5 years by the Jetstar operation maybe getting a Jetstar seniority number is not such a bad idea.
When Qantas domestic is almost gone and everyone is on the new conditions Jetstar will fail and the domestic operation will go back to Qantas domestic.
It might cost a bit repainting all of those aircraft though.:}

[Allan Partridge]

Will they last 5 years???

[blueloo]

um why?

If I joined Myers (Grace Bros) should I get on the seniorty list of Coles supermarkets? (as an example, I realise they dont have seniority)

Surely if you put in an application to join Jetstar, you join Jetstar - not QANTAS, and similarly if you join QF, you fly for QF not Jetstar. Now I realise that QF own Jet*, but it is a seperate entity isnt it?

Anyway all of you guys either hate QF or Jetstar, so why would you want to fly for the other and/or be on the others seniority list.


:} :} :}


(QF have enough in-fighting about their own seniority, let alone amalgamating another body into the system)

[TIMMEEEE]

Wind up alert !!!!

I think there would be blood spilled on the tarmac over this suggestion.
Different kettle of fish especially seeing that Australian Airlines became Qantas as such and they had their own union representation following this integration in line with the AIPA.

I dont think JetStart even qualifies on any front.
Do you honestly think that the Qantas pilots would vote for this???
No, I didnt think so either.
While we're at it why not include all of the Qantas Link (Eastern etc) pilots as well as NJS doing Qantas flights and make it one big happy family?????

[Pete Conrad]

QF have a comprehensive selection process for one reason,to ensure they get the right calibre of pilot. It is not only stupid, but down right insulting to all the other QF regionals to even allow the ex-Impulse pornstar monkeys into the QF seniority system and just makes a mockery of the millions of $ spent on recruiting the right person.


Jetrat will end up a liability to QF, wait and see.



When will you learn to have some respect for other professionals?

Another sandpit you can only look at, not play in! :mad:

Woomera


Pete has apologised for his comments re other pilots and promised to be a good boy in the future.

Otherwise...........!!! :mad:

Woomera

[Dexter]

Well the presidence was started with the intergration of the dometic Australian Airlines an QF, so thats bullswool pete conrat about the selection process.
J* is gonna take over a big bulk of the QF roots including regonal stuff later on like to NZ. Thats where all the jet promotions an commands are gonna go. Thats the diffrence between J* an the baby reginals.
Wiill they last 5 years? Yes Captain Partridge managment will make sure of it!

[rescue 1]

And then Jetconnect should be on it. Or then again, maybe they should go onto the AirNZ list if the buy-out goes ahead.

[Kaptin M]

But you do NOW , Keg! :ok:

[Pete Conrad]

Dexter, how wrong you are. J* will not end up doing most of the regional stuff as you so eloquently put it, certainly NOT the tasman stuff from Jetconnect. J* could not do it for less than what Jetconnect do being based in NZ, that is fact.

Australian Airlines had a very comprehensive selection process Dexter, I still have a letter laying around somewhere detailing the process, it was more than what was required to get a job at Impact thats for sure.

rescue 1, thats the rumour in NZ anyway, don't know how true it is.

[spinout]

I seem to remember around ’89 that Australian Airlines had a interview process that consisted of not much more than a willingness to sigh a contract, people who did not even have an Australian license let alone citizenship were fast tracked to a job, these people are/were acceptable to Qantas. The fact is, if a person is employed by Qantas mainline or one of its wholly owned regionals they are Qantas employees. :hmm:

[IIII IIII]

Must be getting on for time for a Transmission of Business application to the AIRC

[Yorik Hunt]

Couple points here. First is for the almighty himself. Yes you Big W. In Pete's edited post above, you describe Jet* pilots as professionals. OK, but there are those of us out there who don't think it is very professional behaviour to jump in under another group of pilots and undercut them as they did.

Jetstar = Professionals. Not with that kind of behaviour.

Next. The possibility of an Impulse pilot flying a QF mainline aircraft currently exists. Subject to a vote by both groups. But the simple fact of the matter is this. Most QF pilots that I have spoken to about this see it as a simple waste of time by AIPA. This is not what the membership want. It will be voted down.

[Icebreaker]

heard the same that Jet* pilots aren't interested in the agreement either....anyone know why it was proposed in the first place?

[Yorik Hunt]

Its a desparate attempt by AIPA to make up for being caught with their pants down. Blind freddy could have seen this coming, but AIPA certainly didn't. Now they are battlinng (and failing I might add) to keep their foot in the door.

Sorry guys - the door closed long ago. We are out in the cold. The scabs have won.

[hoss]

While your at it might as well throw AA BA and CX etc. onto the list for being One World Partners ;) .

[golow]

Talking to all my friends in Qantas they say they are happy for Jetstar pilots to join AIPA and go luck to us. Most Jetstar pilots think its a good move to join AIPA. Some people on here think the two pilots groups hate each other. They don't.
Qantas has said this is the job and the pay to both pilots groups. I have taken the jetstar pilot pay and mainline pilots ahve taken whats on offer from Qantas.
Yorik if you don't like what Qantas does you go and tell Dixon, then leave and start your own airline up.

(With due credit and acknowledgement to golow)

I think pilots are all the same, just (professional) men and women who do the best they can no matter what company name is on the side of the aircraft.

Here, here!! :ok:

It's no wonder the various fragmented pilot groups get done over by management with the north end of a south bound pineapple, when they are so bigoted, biased and fragmented they slag all other pilots who do not hold the same type endorsement and employed by the same company.

I’ve met quite a few new, 250 hour CPLs who could give lessons in professionalism to some of the big time, long haul “airline captains” who regularly post in PPRuNe.

The sooner pilots acknowledge and respect their collective professionalism, the sooner they will work together for the common good,.

And, Yorik, whilst you are setting up your own airline, how about you also set up a bulletin board on your own web site, because we’re getting very tired of your childish and ludicrous comments on our Forum. :mad:

Woomera

[Pete Conrad]

Tunguska, The first is more than a rumour.

The second had a chequered history of rudeness and arrogance and psychotic behaviour dating back to days in a town in western NSW in the early 90's.......interesting hey?

With all due respects golow, I would like to know how many QF mates you have? There are 2200 guys at the moment in QF, and I can tell you alot don't think along those lines.

It's all about protecting conditions of service, the same thing that a few of the now J* guys fought for in 89, but now they have done a 180.Go figure?

No wind up intended here either big W, just stating facts.

[ginjockey]

Pete mate, calm down. You are going to pop a vein. I know a few blokes in QF, not 2200 of my very closest mates like yourself, but there's a few who made it into QF that would wouldn't leave alone in a room with a box of matches if you expected the place to be intact when you returned. The standards are not as high as you might like to imagine. They have the power of choice. Simple.

Oh yeah, you will find that there's a few good aussie gals among the 2200 unhappy guys in QF if you take the time to look.

cheers

GJ

[TIMMEEEE]

Tunguska.
Looks like your post may have hit a raw nerve or several and has been removed.
Wouldnt have anything to do with one person doing over 50 hours of police interviews in a NSW town back in the nineties?
I dont know who the other is but it may have to do with someone being asked to leave another airline after certain truths were revealed about quals regarding a physics course.
Perhaps you can verify this Pete.

[High Altitude]

Where I get lost in all this banter is the Kindergarten mentality of I'm a better pilot than you??????????? Or that bikes better than mine...

Fark me they trained a monkey to go to space (well in the movies anyway).

Lets all admit one thing, flying is not hard, it is a discipline. No one is going to employ anyone that is unsafe and anyone can be trained to operate a certain way or type of machinery... Sh*t I'm proof of that... someone taught me to fly... so it proves anyone can fly...

:p

[TIMMEEEE]

Very True High Altitude but the fact remains that whilst alot of people out there can fly a plane, some are more suited than others.

We all know there are alot of very average lawyers out there but when we need the best possible representation we go for a known few with an outstanding track record for representation.
Ditto with doctors/general practitioners and surgeons.

Pilots are just the same but although being trained to a high standard, they must perform to that high standard consistently.Some airlines have different standards than others although there is a minimum requirement to be met in each case.

Unlike doctors and lawyers, the pilot fraternity have to display their ability and worth on a regular basis.

Now not saying that airline A is better than airline B, but certain airlines have prerequisites and hoops to jump through in order to gain employment.
Yes they have different standards.
That doesn't necessarily mean a candidate that is rejected from airline A isnt a good pilot - far from it.
All it means is that for some obscure reason that particular candidate doesnt fit the requirements what that airline are looking for.

For some airlines being able to fly an aircraft is not the only requirement.
The ability to get along with others in a crew environment is tantamount along with the ability to communicate effectively, problem solve and follow standard operating procedures when under pressure.
Ultimately someone that would be a happy employee that would give 20+ years service for example would be preferable over someone more opportunistic that gets an endorsement and goes overseas after a short period.

I know of some that have failed the entry test with some airlines, only to go to Asia and get not only a command up there but put into a position in management.

No system is perfect.

[Watchdog]

True, but I doubt (and hope) that the crap that is thrown around here by several cybergeeks is not representative of the respective company's majority.
Nonetheless, I doubt that Geoff D @ QF etc waste their time like we do reading this hype. :ok:

[grrowler]

timmeee,

I agree with your comments. However it sounds a bit like you're saying that because you had to go through these inperfect hoops (bit of a "I did the hard yards" sort of thing), then everyone else should have to as well.

Does anyone know what QF's "requirements" were when they started up? Did you have to have HSC physics? Did you have to do a skill and psych test? I don't think so.

Using the logic of certain ppl on this forum, and ppl I have spoken to elsewhere, then the pilots who built this airline to what it is today are somehow inferior to your mighty selves. Get real!

Something else I find interesting is that several mainline pilots i know would be happy to pop across to J* to get a direct airbus command and then go back to mainline, but it's not ok for J* guys to jump into the mainline queue. Hypocritical? Selfish?

As ST said, at the moment it's pilot group A vs pilot group B vs Pilot group C, etc with managements waiting like vultures to take out the "winner".

Can't you see that management don't give a f*@k about who crews their aircraft, only about getting a fatter bonus. As long as there are "outcast" groups of pilots, they threaten your jobs. The only solution is to put the past behind us and fight on a united front.

[Argus]

TIMEEEE

Unlike doctors and lawyers, the pilot fraternity have to display their ability and worth on a regular basis.



Mate, my reputation is as good as my last win in Court.

No win, no future fee!

[Where are we?]

Onya Pete'
Seem to recall some years back,one of your "Right calibre of Pilot"
planning to ditch off Cottesloe beach(W.A)rather than use the "Autoland" due unforecast fog in PH.

[amos2]

So, let me ask you Argus...

what are you doing on this forum? :bored:

[Argus]

Amos2

Making a relevant contribution.

And you?

[ajaxcatch]

"Unlike Doctors and lawyers, the pilot frternity have to display their ability and worth on a regular basis"

Correct me if i am wrong please " Pilots follow operating proceedures" If they dont an accident can occur. Cross ref the american airlines disaster where the captain "under slight pressure" forgot to engage the spoiler system on landing. I emphasise slight pressure.

To be successful in other professions you must innovate. If i want to make a million dollars as a succesful businessman i must innovate and think of new market entry strategies, cost systems etc etc etc etc. That means i must come up with the ideas and have the balls to implement and drive them through to completion.

So once again. Your job isa bit like a circus monkey. You follow the procedures, and sometimes the hoop is moved, so the sequence is changed slightly. You are trained and then you repeat. Nothing special is it.

[pollution]

The differnce is Ajax, is that you are not making a series of irreversable decisions in an ever decreasing time window at 8 miles per minute as a businessman (generally).

Additionally, flying involves complex psychomotor tasks, which sitting on yor fat ar$e in an office working out how to screw your workers to increase your own bonus does not.

Hopefully you will never be involved in an inflight emergency as a passenger, but if you are it will be the skill and experience of the pilots that will get you on the ground safely.

That would be 'somthing special' then, woundn't it ?

One other thing Ajax.

This is a professional pilots rumour network.

There are forums for SLF and the like.

I suggest you go there and leave informed comment to those who know what they are talking about

[Woomera]

Lets keep, this on thread and off abuse shall we chaps.

We can all learn from each other and we can all get a tad precious.

We are also ALL victims of circumstance and the vagaries of life in the fast lane, lets deal with it with the professionalism to which we all aspire shall we.

Some of us got lucky on the merry go round and were in the right spot at the right time and in most cases that is the only real distinction between us.

There are those who have played the hand dealt to them with grace and wisdom and there are those who are a right royal pain in the butt.

They come from both sides. :ok:

W

[TIMMEEEE]

Ajaxcatch.
Your comment has got to be a windup alert.

So would you willingly hop onto an airline that had lost 11 airframes over a 10 year period (wont name them) or for the sake of $100 extra fly on airline B with an outstanding safety record and a record of being both proactive in terms of safety as well as innovative?

According to your reckoning pilots are pilots.
Whilst SOP's are great there is no accounting for experience as SOP's have been known to fail on very rare occasions and experience has saved the day where SOP's didnt cater for that particular scenario.

You say being a pilot is abit like being a circus monkey Ajaxcatch, but as they say you pay peanuts............

And yes Ajaxcatch, the last time I checked my family has a 70 yo active barrister and a 68 yo practicing surgeon, both of which haven't had their qualifications checked or challenged in over 40 + years.
I suppose you recommend that for airlines worldwide also in order to save money and be "innovative"????

[Mud Skipper]

I LOL Ajaxcatch,

You have, ideas and have the balls to implement and drive them through to completion.

Thank God you don't fly aircraft, now go away, there's a good boy.

Back to the subject.................

Lets assume the great one did make all pilots equal but some were employed by Qantas.

Impulse pilots, seeing their jobs possibly under threat, offered to fly the 320's for their current pay to secure employment. They can increase this pay later once the job is secure.......some pilots leave after gaining the 320 endorsement to better paying jobs. This is great news for those who stay as it supports their chance of a wage increase - the more that go OS the better it is for those who remain.

AIPA has finally rouses from it's arrogant slumber and recognizes the indians are not happy 100 or 200+ "light twin" commands have been lost to it's members. They elect to try and recruit the Impulse pilots by offering help with pay and conditions and now we are talking about datal seniority intergration, perhaps another "Y" would be more appropriate but it hasn't been touted yet.


The year 2006.......

Just as many a low cost operator have failed so too does Jetstar.
With AIPA's help however the Impulse pilots are on the "Q" seniority list and are entitled to be retrained.
There is however and excess of 500 pilots, some whom were employed even before the takeover of Impulse;
......wondering why they have to be furloughed indefinately.

Sorry AIPA looking after your members does not include putting non member Jetstar pilots on our seniority list.

:(

[pollution]

Mudskipper,

Agree with what you have said except for two points.

Firstly, exen if it loses money hand over fist, Jetstar will not be allowed to publically 'fail'.

Too many big egos, too many potential bonuses involved - particularly Joyce and Dixon.

Second, we need the Jetstar pilots as members of AIPA for one reason, and one reason alone - to stop them backdooring us for flying the A380

[Cactus Jack]

Sorry Pol, but I think that you may find that Mud's assertion that the Jetstar pilots are not wanted on our seniority list is correct for the vast majority of members. Most of the guys that I have flown with think that way, and it's very likely that the arrangements currently being made by AIPA will not make it through a member vote.