Poor Cabin Crew

[tewkesbury]

Heard a poor Big Airways Trolley Dolly, who has only been with the company 6 months, complaining the other day that she was finding it hard to cope,as she was only taking home £1800 a month.
WHAT! I KNOW ENGINEERS WITH 20+ YEARS EXPERIENCE IN ON A LOT LESS THAN THAT.
And the papers complain about falling maintenance standards, is it any wonder when the companies obviously value cabin-crew with 6 weeks training more than an engineer with 20 years experience.:ouch: :*

[jerrystinger]

Firstly, yes, the cabin crew are rated more highly than the engineers, but that probably won't change however much you whinge. People tend to 'talk down' to cabin crew, but I remember I did the job because it offered me thousands (my last month's salary as cabin crew after 6 yrs was £3,200) for doing very little, "rest" (sometimes a mini-holiday!) in 5 star hotels and great travel opportunities (usually in J or F as I knew the crews!). Now, who was the silly one? I've since moved on, but believe me it's a great life and one of the best kept secrets and I look back with a cheeky smirk at how easy life was!

Only at BA as cabin crew :D

[tewkesbury]

Unfortunately, you are missing the point, the whinge is not about Cabincrew, but about the broader picture of a reduction in Maintenance Standards on aircraft, which should concern even the most self centred of cabin crew as untimately no amount of money would make me feel good about flying in an aircraft maintained by an ever disilusioned bunch of engineers.:sad:

[flyblue]

I think people "missed the point" because of the way you phrased your post. It's not very corteous to speak about a profession's problems involving another one and comparing. First it is very easy to get into generalisation like " 6 weeks training" (ex. CC easily speak 3 or 4 languages and I know collegues who speak 7. How many do you? ).
Then I believe every one must negotiate their own salaries. Too easy to point your finger to others that are maybe only better than you at negotiating.
Remember:
you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate

Now it wouldn't it be nice if you edited your first post?

[RoyHudd]

Oh dear, flyblue,

You miss the points completely. 6 or 7 languages are of precious little help when an engine is on fire, or when 2 hydraulic systems start to go down, or a couple of generators fail, or..........

Hey ho, tea white with please.

[SydGirl]

tsk tsk tsk RoyHudd...

If there is a cabin fire - cabin crew attempt to put it out. What language you speak in this case is irrelevant - however you do still have to communicate with tech crew and pax, who may or may not speak the language of your airline (hopefully the tech crew do heheh!). Effective communication will go a long way towards achieving a better result.

What exactly a cabin crew member can do about an engine fire, 2 hydraulic systems going down, or a generator failing is beyond me. Other than preparing the cabin, which again involves communicating with the passengers and crew!!! Again, life would be a little easier if you can communicate in the passenger's native language, would you not agree?

To the original poster..

I would like to know if you actually expressed your view to the FA you heard complaining or are you just b*tching about it behind her back?

Grow some balls for goodness sakes.

SG
:}

PS. Pardon my crass expression, but in this case it is necessary.

[flybywire]

Guess what is going straight in your tea???

Flyblue, I totally agree with you.

When an engine is on fire and you have 312 passengers on board of which only a third speaks english, the knowledge of other languages is as important as the technical knowledge of an engineer (who in the meantime, with all probabilities, is on the ground).

I speak from experience.


FBW.

**ten minutes to landing**

[flyblue]

Roy Hudd,
if you read my post well, you'll notice I was making an example of generalisation. Languages BTW are only an aspect of the job. Engineers do their job, just like Cabin Crew do theirs. Aircrafts wouldn't fly with only engineers, or only CC. They need both to make an airline. Now, if someone is not happy with his salary, he has two options
1) Get another job, provided they have the requirements.
2) Negotiate a higher salary.
To disparage others is no use whatsoever.

[nuigini]

As for language, I remember once when I flew and one of the cabin crew members barely knew any English. When a passenger asked her, in their national language Thai, whether they would mind if two of the passengers changed seats with each other, she answered "I don't speak Thailand".

I later on saw that airline requires all cabin crew to be fluent in English! Contradictory, don't you agree?

[sinala1]

Whoa!

Some pretty pissed off people out there from what I can tell

And the papers complain about falling maintenance standards, is it any wonder when the companies obviously value cabin-crew with 6 weeks training more than an engineer with 20 years experience

Tewkesbury mate I am sorry that you feel that your company values its cabin crew more than its engineers. I dont think that because they pay them more it means that they have more respect or value for their input to the succesful operation of a flight - because at the end of the day, thats what we are all contributing towards: a an aircraft full of pax and freight succesfully moving from one port to another. Engineers are very important, your job is to know basically everything there is to know about the systems of the aircraft, where as the pilots are there to make the systems all work together to create flight, the cabin crew are there to keep the pax happy and safe who pay for the flight to operate, the ground crew are there to co-ordinate the ground side of things.

Personally I have a lot of respect for our engineers, and they (most of them) in turn respect our cabin crew.

Unfortunately, you are missing the point, the whinge is not about Cabincrew, but about the broader picture of a reduction in Maintenance Standards on aircraft, which should concern even the most self centred of cabin crew as untimately no amount of money would make me feel good about flying in an aircraft maintained by an ever disilusioned bunch of engineers.

Sorry mate, but the original post did come across as being a direct attack at cabin crew, even though from what you say it was not your intention :ok:

Hey ho, tea white with please.

Royhudd get back in your hole and don't speak until spoken to, if thats the way you are going to treat others! There is such a lack of respect for each others roles in this thread its not funny.
Its not about making ourselves feel important at the expense of others!

Final point - I am not sure about UK operations etc, but in oz we have unions that negotiate our payscales for us... if that is the case in the UK as well, perhaps the BA engineers could (although I would presume they already have) broach the subject with the union?

Be happy people :ok: :ok: :) :)

[sevenforeseven]

Most of the cabin crew wages are made up from expenses, if engineers jobs involved travel I am sure the wages would exceed the cabin crew salary.
Yes cabin crew are paid to excess especially at BA, but guess which airline is in the dog house? BA, why because in the days of a state owned union run monster the staff on the best wages negotiated a better deal and good for them, engineers did not.

[itchybum]

Expenses? What expenses? Why should the airline pay for your lunch when you're in a hotel. I've always wondered that. They don't buy you lunch when you're at home, same with the engineer. Still, don't suppose that'll go down all that well around here...

RoyHudd your attempt is only going to earn you a sore head from banging against that brick wall. Too many sensitive people ready to jump on anything that looks like a belittlement of a profession.

Anyone who responds to a slight with
"guess what's:
-going in your tea
-being rubbed all over your bread roll
-happening to your piece of steak"

is a part of the problem, not the solution. It's not socially acceptable around here to appear to ridicule cabin crew but excessive use of vitriole and pathetic, childish claims of food or drink tampering are quite alright. :rolleyes:

Now and then the CC where I work need a "briefing" and they get it. Then of course, one has to wonder what's coming in the next meal. Seems to indicate a different level of maturity. It's a generalisation, I know, and doesn't always apply. But hey, when the shoe DOES fit....

[sinala1]

Itchybum

But hey, when the shoe DOES fit....

I agree completely! There are times when a bit of a briefing is required - some of the things I have heard my crew come out with towards our flight deck have earned those cabin crew disciplinary action. But Royhudd's comment was totally uncalled for (and yes hey so was my response - I can admit that).

I still stand by the fact though that there is a HUGE lack of respect of each others professions in this thread... perhaps if people respected each others role in the provision of transport to passengers then we would be able to move forward in this discussion a lot easier.

It's not socially acceptable around here to appear to ridicule cabin crew but excessive use of vitriole and pathetic, childish claims of food or drink tampering are quite alright

No its not socially acceptable to ridicule cabin crew, especially on a cabin crew forum - but on the same token its not fair for cabin crew to ridicule other roles in aviation either (which from the short time I have been posting on pprune does not happen very much, if ever)

[CargoOne]

I wonder why no one mentioned accounting and management yet.... :cool:

[Dogs_ears_up]

We're all worth what we're paid - that's how the market works. I don't like that BA crew can earn significantly more than crew in my company: I don't like that non-exec directors are paid more than I earn in a year for less than a month's work in days. I don't like that some of my managers are paid anything at all, given that they are so incompetent, they could f**k up a cup of coffee!
The market dictates the going price - as flyblue says, if you don't like it, then renegotiate your own worth. Comparing perceived value will achieve nothing except a migraine!
Have a nice day :O

[jerrystinger]

Royhudd - maybe speaking 10 languages isn't that useful when it comes to engine fires, hydraulic problems etc, but those that speak those 10 languages can sit back and watch you work...for probably twice as much money for 0.000001% of hard graft!

The cabin crew can make your tea while you unblock the drains and loos.

[Jason King]

Roy Hudd




CREW RESOURCE MANAGEMENT

[tewkesbury]

Most of the replies to this comment prove one thing that this industry if fueled by greed, and people who are only interested in one thing, the bottom line. When in point of fact the number one driving force in the industry used to be safety, not any more, it's self, self, self.
Well I hope all you contributors to this column are happy that you are flying in aircraft maintained by people who are paid less than cabin crew. Laker said it years ago, "I can fill an aircraft with cabin in an afternoon stroll down Crawley High Street", but engineers? Just remember 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys'.

[Dogs_ears_up]

So, tewkesbury - there was a golden age was there, when people worked for higher reasons than mere personal gain? I would disagree with you on that point...
Just to set the record straight, I was surprised to hear that gingers earn less than some Cabin Crew, and in a just world, then I'd be quite happy for that situation to be reversed. I wish to return safely home each night, and an integral part of that process involves skilled engineers behaving responsibly and using their skills. However, the issue here is not really about the relative worth (and yes, Sir Freddie was right - but would the Crew be any good?) of CC to engineers, but actually about the ability of engineers to negotiate a better price for their skills in the existing market. In that struggle, I wish them luck.
It is also worth pointing out that not all crew are paid as much as others. For example, I'm paid, in charter, the current perceivedd market price for my skills and experience- others are paid less: The comparison made at the start of this thread may not hold true for all airlines in the UK - just a thought

Have a nice day :O

[pilotwolf]

At the end of the day it depends what you're actually paying for...

My local main dealer charges around £70 ph for working on my car.

As a paramedic I just about clear £10 ph before tax and NI.

How many lives does my mechanic save? But I hope they ll do the job right so my brakes/steering/etc work when I need them, but if he gets it wrong or there is a mechanical failure... When/if I crash it ll be the emergency services earning a 1/7th of the hourly rate who ll, (hopefully), save me...

So... yes the engineers are an important part of the loop BUT when the proverbial hits the fan it ll be the cabin crew who are, (again hopefully), doing their best to get me out of the aircraft - even if they spend the majority of their working lives serving my dinner...

No one will ever be paid what they or indeed most of the general public think they are worth. Put a value on my skills when I ve just resuscitated your relative....

Property will always have more value than life - check what the Geneva Convention (?) says you're worth on your ticket next time you fly - you ll be shocked!

PW

[GIANNI]

RE : ROY HUD


Very funny mate !
Cabin crew don't realise the state of the potable water tanks !!!!!!!

[KTPops]

As a hostie who is lucky if she clears £1,200 pm LET ALONE £1,800, may I just say that I agree with pilotwolf. We will never get paid the sort of wages that we think we deserve in terms of hours, fatigue or even hard graft - I'm sure the aviation industry is not exclusive to that fact.

It's a shame that one shallow hostie's comments about being unable to survive on a bl**dy good monthly wage has sparked such a heated and offensive debate. No, it's not right that as a highly skilled engineer with years of training you are being paid less than the cabin crew, but is that really a call to belittle us and negate the job description that we fill?

I'm sure that said hostie's comments have infuriated you and highlighted an issue that you feel should be addressed, but shouldn't these pay issues be taken up with your employers?

And GIANNI, what a professional response. Aren't they the same tanks we use to make YOUR tea?

[Anti-ice]

What you fail to mention is that out of that £1800 , they may well have downroute expenses of approx £300 .

I don't believe that engineers should be paid badly, but having visited a vast BA hangar the other day, no-one there was in a hurry to do anything fast.

The role of cabin crew can be very demanding , and you do get alot of verbal from our lovely customers.

Besides ,if any BA engineer feels they are missing out on something, they are MORE than welcome to apply internally for cabin crew :p
Believe me , it does happen! :ok:

[Interconti]

:D chicken or beef? :D

[Kempus]

hi!

Every so often someone coplains about cc pay. Leave your job and apply to be one if you aint happy! :D

Oh and the pilot/engineer/cabin crew/management pay argument can can be found here,

http://pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=124412

not sure how to link it but if you copy and paste you can read the 20 odd pages of it!!

kempus :ooh:

oh! well there you go! bet it was an engineer that came up with that!

[BYOD]

So Doggie ears, whats your job worth in India? The Aussie trolley dollies are taking industrial action to prevent the beginings of outsourcing. Good luck to them. If the bean counters have their way, all in flt announcements will begin with "Namasteh!".:O

[Calle Belle]

Does anyone else remember the occasion when the first officer on a BA flight was rescued by the cabin crew, when the window blew off on a particular 737? Maybe we should ask the pilots on that flight if we are overpaid, or if the engineers deserve their pay? HO HUM!;)

[tewkesbury]

Which just goes to prove my point as the person certifying that windsreen job was in fact a manager who had been sat behind a desk for 10 years and only came out from behind it bacause the engineers at LHR where on strike to improve their conditions, unfortunately it resulted in a pilot nearly being killed.
So again are you happy flying around in an aircraft maintained by unhappy engineers who if conditions don't improve will more than likely leave the industry to fix the cabin crews BMW's, leaving the aircraft in the hands of managers or newly qualified engineers?
Will someone please answer the question?

[flyblue]

Of course, but please answer mine first:
who do the unhappy engineers expect will fight their battle for pay rise?

We sympathize, we are on your side, but what do you expect from us? Want us to demand a pay cut to raise the engineers pay? Well, after you so graciously came here telling us we don't deserve our salary, we are really tempted, honest.:rolleyes:

[sam white]

tewkesbury,

unfortunatly, reason has nothing in common with airlines.
The book bashers sitting in an office are making the decisions, and not for the safe and well being of aviation employees, or pax, it sucks but its the way it is.

the industry is such that CC are getting paid better than a lot of brand new pilots, engineers, etc.

Is it scary that Engineers are not happy in there job... of course, is it scarier that companies are putting F/O's in the right seat with only 200 flying hours... and are the accountants going to listen until one of our beloved aircraft goes down due pilot/mechanical failure....NO,

It is a sad fact but this industry is F###ed up at the moment and doesnt seem to be in a hurry to sort itself out.

[Calle Belle]

Flyblue...I could not agree more! Fight your own battles..and if your union is not strong enough..do something about i! Rise to our level..dont let us come down to your own! SORRY!

[itchybum]

Well I don't think anyone actually thinks you might really lower your conditions (at airlines where hosty pay is ridiculously high, I know this isn't the case at all airlines). You've got it, you might as well hang onto it. And why not?

But in all honesty, how about YOU answer THIS question:

Taking into account qualifications, training and the ease of replacement of crew, do you really think the job demands the high salary?

Or look at it this way... if you were an impartial arbitrator in charge of dictating salary levels for a new airline, could you honestly look the staff in the eye and tell them you were going to pay the hosties more than the engineers?

Be honest.

If yes, I'd be interested to see the "justification" without resorting to slanging, threats of banning, coffee-tampering, etc.

[jerrystinger]

I'm not sure there is any justification, but if it's a mere question of higher qualifications/training = higher salary, why is it that a lot of major airlines worldwide pay their F/As more than the engineers and in some cases F/Os? Does this not say a lot about how highly (or lowly) rated the engineers/F/Os actually are by the companies for which they work?

[flyblue]

Honestly, taking into account my qualifications, personal qualities, experience and continuous training, I feel I am definitely underpaid (but happy nonetheless on the whole).
if you were an impartial arbitrator in charge of dictating salary levels for a new airline, could you honestly look the staff in the eye and tell them you were going to pay the hosties more than the engineers?
It doesn't work this way, and nothing of the sort would ever happen: YOU as a cathegory have to negotiate your salary. If your salary is what it is, you have no one to blame than yourselves. Especially not Flight Attendants.

[flapsforty]

Mr tewkesbury, you write that your whinge is not about cabincrew but about the broader picture of a reduction in Maintenance Standards on aircraft. A worthy concern, and one which all of us in the industry most decidedly share with you if such a reduction can be proven to exist. Is there anything substantial you would like to share with us here? Some proof, something you see happening daily? I would be very interested to hear from you on that. As you so rightly point out, proper maintance is a matter of the gravest concern for all of us. self centred cabin crew or not. :)

Sharing your concern the way I do, and not doubting your motives for a second, I am somewhat mystified that you should voice your concern on the Cabin Crew forum. Since, according to your good self, your whinge is not about Cabincrew why have you chosen to unburden yourself on this particular foum? Would not your very valid concern for a percieved dropping of maintenance standards have reached a larger and more useful audience on a more widely read PPRuNe forum?
What exactly lead you to our humble Cabin crew forum if I may ask?

Oh and about ever disilusioned ; I do so sympathise.
Again a trend shared by many of us in the industry.
Small example; the company whose uniform I have proudly worn for most of my working life has just been sold wing, flap and rivet to the mob that employs Flyblue.
Am I disillusioned?
You bet! :*
Do I blame the folks at the cleverly run company that bought us or do I blame our own weaselfaced top management?

Mr tewkesbury, you only get one guess. ;)

[aaaaa]

I am pleased for anyone who can get a decent wage out of the airlines. It doesn't matter what the position is.

I have to admit, however, it is a bit hard on the new flight deck crew who have to live on about £20,000 a year before tax etc and pay back the loans that they had to take out to get where they are now. It is very tough for them to make ends meet, so often get into more debt.

:{
xx

[Honeytruck]

To slightly set the balance right, can I just point out that I joined BA in 1998, on the "new pay scale" and , working long-haul out of LGW, was lucky to take home £1100 a month. We just didn't get the lucrative destinations of LHR, and those we did have -- all one of them -- went not long after I joined. So the formula BA Cabin Crew = Terrific Pay baffles me.
I know that's not what this thread is primarily about, but hope that might put a bit more perspective on the debate.

[Rabid Dog]

MY GOD! I thought an aircraft was meant to be a team thing! Obviously depends upon the airline with you are employed.
If you need to criticise any group in the industry, why not attack the cleaners? caterers? accountants? I'm sure some of them earn more $s than you do, but then again they perform tasks that you may not wish to perform.
It's that whole thing called division of (skilled) labour, and obviously your skills are with the inanimate parts of the aircraft, and not relating to the SLF.