PFA Rally

[Courtman]

Having been to the PFA Rally since 1994 I think that this year I'll give it a miss. Having just looked on the rally website it seems that entry for non-PFA members is £25 each for 3 days. OK, but what about if you are only going for one day?

Considering the Rally is not what it used to be, and is mainly full of trade stands that encourage you to part with even more money, and there isn't even a flying display (if you don't count watching hundreds of light aircraft trying to crash in the same spot), I think this is too much. If we took a PA28 with 4 people it will cost £100 to get in, this is more than it will cost us round trip for the aircraft hire!!

Rant over, any other good places to go on 10th July?!

[Whirlybird]

Oh good; that's one aircraft less in the crowd trying to land when I arrive. :) :) :)

[BRL]

Please don't let this turn into a PFA bashing thread again.

He has asked where to go, not what you think of the PFA...... :)
Ta.

[Flap40]

Silverstone stil have tickets available for the Grand Prix if you'd prefer to go there.

Prices from £569!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[McFunkletrumpet]

Courtman,
Not long ago, your fellow Brits were paying to fly to Portugal then
finding accomodation for up to a month, paying possibly up to £600 for a hookey ticket to Euro 2004 to watch a poor showing by the national team then watching 90 minutes of footie. Total possible cost, anything up to a grand. You complain at a day out for £25? ( plus the cost of getting there - granted)
Anyway, you're more likely to fly than play for England!
See you at the Rally. As Del says.... You know it makes sense.

[Sensible]

Wot! You fly aircraft and complain about a measly 25 quid each? My calendar says it's 2004 and 25 quid is not a lot in 2004, I part with more than 50 quid just filling up my car with diesel and 30 quid a head for dinner!:ouch:

[McFunkletrumpet]

Sensilble....... Yea man.

Look at Courtmans profile. That will tell you all.

[aiglon]

Sensible, please send me a plain envelope filled with 25 of Her Majesty's sterling pounds . Come on, you can afford to fly, surely you are not going to miss a measly £25?

Thought not.

Aiglon

[shortstripper]

Why not simply join? That way you all get reduced entrance and you'll also feel more involved in the whole event. The reduction in entrance fee actually goes a long way toward paying for your membership and apart from all the other benefits, you'll recieve the bi-monthly "Popular Flyer" mag which is worth the subs in itself!

All being well I'll be there in Falconar G-AWHY, which leads on to ask ... Who else is going? and Is there a mini PPRUNE meet planned?

SS

[Whirlybird]

shortstripper,

I hope to be there Friday and Saturday, in G-ATKF. Which days are you there? Meeting up sounds like a nice idea.

[locksmith]

have you been out latley?

£25 each?

Where could you go?

[Mike Cross]

I shall be there all 3 days, regrettably not arriving by aerial carriage as I have too much kit to carry and the rest of the group might object if I tried to hog it for 3 days.

I shall be on the P!£ot stand for much of the time so come and visit me there. I shall also be speaking on NOTAM briefings in the Forum tent, 16:00 on Friday and 14:00 on Saturday. Please feel free to come and heckle.

If any of you are having problems with the AIS site seek me out (or if you are gasping for a beer I'm sure I can be persuaded to accompany you).

Mike

[Rod1]

I will be there all three days. Highlight of the flying year.

Rod1

[formationfoto]

Go anywhere but the Cotswolds! As usual it will be busy around the approaches to Kemble with many trying their best to infringe her majesties air space.

As for me I am spending from Thurs evening to Sun night at Kemble doing various things with PILOT. How about trying to bag a PPRUNE table at the Saturday evening gig?

[shortstripper]

I'll be there from Friday afternoon to Sat morning.

SS :O

[Whirlybird]

OK, how about if me, shortstripper, Rod, Mike Cross, and anyone else who's around meet at the Pilot stand on Friday at 3pm. If I remember, I'll take my Whirlybird badge. If I forget, look for two shortish darkhaired women - me and Whirlygig.

This is not to say anyone else can't make other arrangements, but I know from past experience that we can fill pages with people saying "what a good idea; when shall me meet", before anyone makes a decision. So, is that OK with everyone who'll be there?

[Mike Cross]

I shall be there but will have to leg it by 15:30 to prepare for my presentation. formationfoto will probably also be there.

Mike

[Whirlybird]

Is 2pm better? Whirlygig's not coming now, but I'll be there. Decided to be brave and fly in alone. :eek:

[shortstripper]

I'll be there ... look out for a short ... not really even ... ish! :ugh: dark haired man.

SS :ok:

Edit to say ... 2 pm might be a bit too early for me.

[Windy Militant]

I'll be there but after last years AV8 debacle I'll be keeping a low profile. Most likely on Friday afternoon I'll be flogging Tee shirts, directing people to the Loo's and being moaned at about the price to get in, the state of said Loo's and anything else that the whinging masses can think of. Still mustn’t grumble eh! ;)

[Mike Cross]

3 pm is fine. I've had an email today saying my slot is now at 16:30 instead of 16:00.

Mike

[S-Works]

how do you get a slot time?

[Rod1]

It is a slot time for a presentation on NOTAMS not a flying in slot time.

See you all at 3:00.

Rod1

[G-KEST]

Hi there,
Will try to make 1500 Friday to put faces to all the "posters". Mine is the one with the grey beard on top of a rather plump and somewhat geriatric figure - possibly wearing shorts but looking at the forecast I rather doubt it.
Cheers,
Trapper 69

[Mike Cross]

G-KEST

Would like to meet up with you, check your PM's please

Mike

[Flyin'Dutch']

Intending to go on Friday.

F

[spitfire]

Courtman

Join the PFA you tight ar$ed whingeing git.

[AerBabe]

Will be there Friday, helping out on the BWPA stand. Not sure how long I'll be able to get away for though.

[javelin]

Javelin will be there in his yellow and white Champ - probably Saturday. Will wear my Dago Red T shirt from Reno.

[QNH 1013]

Keep fingers crossed for good weather on Friday then.

[flyintheointment]

Joined PFA Cranfield 1997 @Cranfield.Was told £75 gate money would be refunded.Still waiting!!!!!
Profit From Aviators
P.S How come an "aircraft" built in the garden shed gets a permit while Yak and Sukhoi have to go on the Hungarian reg to fly.
Come on CAA what was JAR set up for?

[Pink_aviator]

HEY WHIRLY

look out for me ?

I will be there but have my wings clipped as I have two minor sprogs in tow .

(we are enroute to the surfers paradise ) but I want to show them some planes .

see you .

(emmmmmmm I'll be in PINK .)

the PINKSTER ,

[SlipSlider]

Javelin, we must meet! Wings still clipped :( so will be driving. In case I can't find you near your Champ ... PM me your mobile number?
Rich

[Whirlybird]

pinkster,

Look forward to seeing you! Give me a call, mobile will be on.

It now looks as though I might be driving down, as wx for Friday looks awful, and I don't want to fly in alone on Saturday when it's liable to be horribly crowded up there. Maybe if we all collectively keep praying for good weather....

[QNH 1013]

Latest synoptic shows wx improving for tomorrow. However, expect showers and a crosswind.
Hope to be arriving in the Europa (conventional tailwheel conversion). Must remember to take PFA membership card (and a warm winter coat).

[Flyin'Dutch']

Despite the crappo weather I thought I'd better study the AIC and associated plates just in case.

Can someone enlighten me on how you are supposed to route if the cloudbase is below the 3000ft which is the altitude to route into the Malmesbury hold?

FD

[Whirlybird]

FD,

One of us is confused. From my reading of the AIC it looks as though for the Sword route - which I assume you're taking - you route to Malmesbury not above 3500ft. In fact, I think all the routes require you to below 3500, 2500, or 2000 ft. Or is it me that's missing something?

I don't like the look of the weather; I'll get up early and check, but I think I'm going to drive in. The combination of showers, low cloud, crosswind, and loads of other traffic sounds like slightly more than I fancy coping with...at least, I think so. God, how I hate these marginal weather go/no go decisions. I almost wish it would forecast real absolute crap, so that the decision was obvious. I'm not sure if I'm being sensible or too cautious. :eek: I'd do it in a helicopter because (a) I can land and wait out the weather, and (b) I'm a more experienced rotary pilot and happy to fly in worse conditions. But I don't have a helicopter. And in one of these strange things with non-whirly wings that needs a runway...dunno, still undecided. :confused: But I'll be there anyway. Sometimes I think cars are wonderful; you can drive them in any weather conditions...except floods and snow anyway.

[QNH 1013]

FD, The solid lines above the altitude figures mean "not above" the altitude quoted. i.e. an upper limit.

Hope to see you there, weather willing,

QNH

[Flyin'Dutch']

Cheers folks,

Had another closer look and agree that that is what is meant.

Coming from the north and having to fly past the airfield, mingling with those coming from the Malmesbury VRP who are on the way to Kemble at potentially the same altitude, yummy.

I have another 1 1/2 grace before committing myself but it does look in favour of driving at the moment.

FD

[shortstripper]

Hi

Well I got there ... too late to meet whirly though (by about half an hour). Still, met up with a few old friends and had a good drink Friday night before flying back to Goodwood at midday.

I hope everyone that went by air or road had a good time.

SS

[Zlin526]

Well, did anyone go?? What was it like? Worth the entrance/landing fees? Too many anoraks/spotters? Give us a clue..

As for me, I avoided the place by flying at the other end of the country:ok:

[Flyin'Dutch']

Yup, we went on Friday.

Managed to work out the AIC but for lack of traffic decided to abandon flying all the way to the watertower and proceeded to find our way safely into Kemble. Was a steady stream rather than really busy at that time, but that suited me quite well.

Some grumbles that it was quiet but I can not compare as I have only been on weekend days in the past.

As I flew in and am a member I only had to pay a fiver and my passenger a tenner so that was all not too bad.

Quite enjoyed ourselves and was nice to see some friends although there was nobody vaguely obnoxious enough at the beertent at 1500 to be able to claim to be a Prooner so just had a sarnie and drink with some mates at one of the wooden tables.

Worth it? Yup for me although I don't think not going would have made life not worth living either.

Stillthink the approach procedures are crap.

FD

[Skylark4]

I went on Saturday. Aircraft wasn't ready so I drove in. First impression was that I'm glad there wasn't a big crowd trying to get in as even with all 3 or 4 lanes taking entrance money it was sllooowwwww. There must be a better way than that.
There needs to be an 'Entrance'. Only clue to where to head was the general drift of pedestrians.
There weren't any aviation junk stalls. Possibly put off by high charges. I particularly wanted an obsolescent old Dzus fastener for my obsolescent old glider.
Nothing on the tradestands that particularly interested me as I'm not in the market for new instruments or electronics and I certainly can't consider any of the new super sleek super expensive kits.
There didn't seem to be that many aircraft on the ground, maybe half what there were last year and a quick walk around didn't show up anything that needed too much close inspection. I think most of what was of interest to me, vintage or rag and wood homebuilts were put off by the weather. Once you've seen one Europa and one RV you've seen them all unless you are particularly interested in them.
Why are people so shy about putting the identification of their aircraft on the aircraft. There were two Thorpe T 18s there. I know that because the second one had it written on the tail. The first one was, to me, a curious aircraft with a touch of the Wittman Tailwind about it and no clue as to what it actually was.
I didn't go across to the Tower side but I did notice a low wing trike at the end of his landing run on the grass and he was being bounced around all over the place. I guess they haven't done anything to de-bump the grass 'runway' yet. It's just a bit too rough in my opinion.
Catering was the usual rip off. Fish and chips was only about a pound more than the local chippie but the other stuff seemed well overpriced. Someone told me in conversation that the coffee stall was charging £2 for a Latte and that no-one else was allowed to sell them. A bit of competition would sort out the prices methinks. It's probably just me. I'm at the age where everything seems expensive. Even the politicians are beginning to look young now.
Your turn, what did you think?

Mike W

[shortstripper]

Would you believe it!

I was at the AirworldUK stall picking up a package Friday afternoon whilst this fella was asking about a Dzus fastener ... if only I'd known :rolleyes:

The approach proceedures actually turned out to work very well. However, sitting at Goodwood trying to make head and tail of them was a nightmare! Far far too complicated for what they needed to be. If I'd been flying a single seat open cockpit type I'd have given up! You'd need a photographic memory because all that paper would be impossible to carry and you can only make so many marks on a map before its over cluttered.

My other niggle was being stuck over on the Northside. It's a shame nobody antisipated the low turnout of aircraft due to weather. If they had they could have parked us all Southside, which would have given better access to pilots and spotters alike. As it was my feet were soaked by the time I walked over for breakfast Saturday morning.

Other than that I had a good time and would definately go again ... but then I do go most years anyway :ok:

SS

[2Donkeys]

I went on Saturday. The Watertower join worked well for us and the two other aircraft we were following. The two plonkers who decided to make a straight-in approach and whom we met as they approached directly overhead Kemble village clearly found it not to their taste :rolleyes:

Not sure how in Saturday's viz, you can determine that the published approach is not busy since nobody was transmitting until on final, as per instructions. Oh well!

On the ground, things were very much as expected, except perhaps that there were rather fewer stalls overall then in some previous years, and certainly rather fewer tat stalls. Good to see that incluced in those that did make it was the one that looks like a down-market version of Millets, busy flogging rusty cracked cylinders and WW2 German helmets. Just the thing for your Piper Arrow :D

Popped over to AV8 for lunch squeezing a table away from the spotters who were busy making a cup of coffee last as long as possible whilst their notepads rustled in the slightly damp breeze.

Popped back over to look at the stands. Liked the Fieseler Storch lookalike a lot, liked a few of the sleek Lancair-type machines on the visitors' area, admired the wingless JetA1 Vari-Eze.

45 minutes later, and unpersuaded to part with any money, I got the departure brief and joined the queue to leave. Total time on the ground 3:20 of which man-sized portions were spent in Av8 eating, and in the queue waiting to leave.

It was not an unpleasant outing, but I wouldn't have killed to go on it. I think the format is now seriously tired and needs the kind of rethink that events like Aerofair would also benefit from.

2D

[Whirlybird]

Between Thursday evening and Friday morning the TAFs improved enough that I decided to try flying in. I also found I had a cat sitter, and accommodation at Kemble, so decided to stay all weekend!

Flying in f/w, for the first time, to an airfield I'd never visited except by helicopter (so not to the runway) was much easier than I expected. In fact, Friday morning was so quiet that there were no other aircraft to follow in! The plan on the AIC had fallen on the floor of the aircraft, so just as well I'd memorised it. Great fun taxi-ing in though, loads of spotters taking photos and registrations...hey, this is a very ordinary old C150; I like it and take pictures of it, but why are you? :confused:

Managed to meet a few prooners in the afternoon at the Flyer stand, sorry to have missed FD and shortstripper. Had a good time, meeting people, arranging to write more articles for the mags, helping on the BWPA stand, buying stuff...all filled in the time till Sunday morning, when I decided to leave before the general rush. But I agree, quieter than previous years. I think the slightly iffy wx (technical term that :) ) put off some flyers. I'm sure the inflated entrance prices put off many people...I'm a member, so £5 was fine, but £25 for a day is ridiculous. And stallholders said prices had gone up, hence the empty stalls and lack of fun-type stalls as in the past.

I had a great weekend, but that's me. But PFA, I think you need to re-think this one a little bit for next year.

[QNH 1013]

FD,

Sorry to have missed you on Friday. The pprune "crowd" met at 3pm at the Pilot stand (all four of us), perhaps the beer tent would have been better !

I always thought the marshalling was done pretty well by the cadets in previous years, but this year neither the cadets, nor the older marshallers seemed to have been briefed at all. The AIC said display a letter "S" if you need to be parked south side after landing, and we waved and pointed at this to each marshaller but ended up being marshalled further and further North into the North side and directed to park there. Fortunately it was very quiet Friday morning and so a radio call to Kemble grass sorted out a follow-me van and we eventually managed to get to the Europa line-up.

I also couldn't understand why both aircraft wanting to park "South Side" and aircraft wanting to go to the Sales Area were both told to display the same letter "S".

Rally seemed very quiet and there seemed to be many traders missing, with empty stalls, and one trader told me he had reduced the size of his stall this year because of the prices.

Did I enjoy it? .... Yes.

Will I go next year? ..... Probably, but next year might be my last visit unless things reverse.

I don't like being negative without offering a solution, but I'm afraid I don't know enough detail of the rally finances to offer one.

Many thanks to all the volunteers who made it all possible.

[Peeking Duck]

I have to agree in the rip off charges. I have been going to the PFA rally off and on for 20 years and this year I was really annoyed at the costs.

I flew in a friends A/C; as ours was away and on landing was charged £35!!!!!.

£10 because my friend who OWNS the A/C but did not land it, making him a passenger and therefore charged £10 not the £5 for members!

I was charged £25 even though I asked to renew my membership on arrival AS IN PREVIOUS years, and was told that we've stopped that now, as it was too difficult to administer …………..Bollocks!!!

I went to the PFA tent to complain and still to renew and was only offered a Rally Discount.

I once ran the Berkshire strut with over 200 members and gave that up, as the PFA was more concerned then with in house politics rather than flying.

Again RIP OFF BRITAIN and the PFA.

A party from Germany also felt aggrieved as 4 flew in and were charged £100!!!!

“Never again” I heard him say, I also feel the same!!!!!!!!
:mad: :mad:

[Whirlybird]

A party from Germany also felt aggrieved as 4 flew in and were charged £100!!!!

I read somewhere - I think on the PFA website - that vistors flying in from overseas get in FREE!!!!!!!!!

[Peeking Duck]

Then they should not have been charged then !!!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I enjoyed myself, although only one chance to try out a new aeroplane in 3 days was a tad dissapointing :( That one was fun though, and I live in hope of getting a go in the Supermarine Mk.26 one day :E


I quickly lost track of the number of times that I heard the phrase "twenty five pounds" in a rising tone of voice. Appreciating that there were substantial discounts for PFA members, these weren't all that clearly pre-publicised, nor did there seem to have been an option for people to join and get the difference back. Certainly I've heard of a lot of people who didn't come because of the cost - I certainly met virtually nobody who could be described as "general public" - that I think is a great shame at a GA event of this size.

Surprised more wasn't made of the private fast jets, Bristol Aero-Collection, etc. on site. It wouldn't have been hard to put a static display on as part of the overall event.

Far less traders than previously; I heard from several that the stand fees were up 40%, which would tend to explain that. I have to say, I'm not sure that the Vodaphone bus was a fair exchange for the rather charming "ladies tent" of previous years.

Also, surely the PFA, which is trying to persuade the world that it isn't the "microlight unfriendly" organisation some think it is, wasn't being very clever in segregating most of the microlights to the other side of the airfield at the end of a shuttle-bus?

Lastly, publicity for the forums was poor - it was there in the rally programme, but very little in advance so, for example, anybody desperate to hear about the Magnum but coming on Sunday would have been very dissapointed. Having given a few forum lectures in the past, and chaired a couple this year, I find it dissapointing when the great and good of GA are prepared to give up the considerable time to prepare a talk, that the utmost isn't made of it.



Which all sounds very negative, so on the positive side:-

- Lots of aeroplanes to see, including a few new types.
- Safety, access to flightline, FOD control seems to have been all handled very well.
- The weather was just about flyable throughout, although it was certainly never tee-shirt weather.
- Catering was superb (although a few more bins around the eating area would have been a good idea).
- Nice to see the aviation related childrens activities going on.
- Very easy to get in and out by car; much less hard work than ever before.

Overall, it won't go down as the best rally in the PFA's history, but it was safe and fun, with lots to see.

G

[TonyR]

Same experience for some of my friends from Ireland.

They were told that Ireland was "NOT OVERSEAS" and the 4 were charged £25 each.

From the PFA site "AIR ARRIVALS FROM OVERSEAS - FREE"

Perhaps some PFA EC member would explain the Irish situation.

Tony

[2Donkeys]

It must be that Common Travel Area thing :D

[Peeking Duck]

That must be great insult as well to be told that Ireland is not overseas.

How insensitive can some people be.

Next year it will be

"Only from outside the EU and only if you have both sets of Grandparents with you"
Any way i know these will fall on deaf ears , so here's a few photo's of Aircraft I have owned or been in groups. over the recent years years to lighten things up http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/5E/C2/TheWellseys/1/1a.jpg


http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/5E/C2/TheWellseys/1/16.jpg

http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/5E/C2/TheWellseys/1/18.jpg

http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/5E/C2/TheWellseys/1/21.jpg

[beamer]

Just a little note from a 'local' who lives close to Kemble. Notwithstanding all the understandable gripes about 'excess costs' - thanks to all those who flew in following all the laid down procedures. It was'nt a good weekend weather wise but I have plenty of neighbours who get hacked off by some of the goings on at Kemble especially by the Hunters - the PFA is not really a problem for the reasons expressed already. I believe that the airfield side of Kemble barely makes any money; hence high charges. The real profit from the site comes from the industrial leasing of hangarage etc.

Personally I remember the Halcyon days at Sywell in years gone by - no tarmac of course but a genuine pre-war airfield which has gone an art-deco transformation over the past few years. Maybe the PFA will reconsider a return to Northamptonshire as long as it does not coincide with the Grand Prix of course !

[scottish_ppl]

I was there over the weekend and was impressed. Most planes I've seen in a single spot, able to get up close to the planes and hands-on with goodies like the 296, and lowrance. Managed to avoid handing over a wad of cash though. Food was OK, better than some shows. Marshalling looked safe and well organised on the whole.

Even tried my hand at drilling, dimpling and hammering a few rivets, inspired by the impressive part-built RV7 in the homebuilders area. Better watch out, or the weekend could really be an expensive one, even with the low dollar!

And as a member, all this for a tenner.

Only negatives would be that the Northside just doesnt work, I'd be pretty disappointed if I'd flown in and been parked there.

Also, must be possible to have a simple mechanism where you sign up for membership and get the member entry.

[Peeking Duck]

Thanks, I agree there used to be a system to join on landing but the Ivory tower bods stopped it.!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[McFunkletrumpet]

I've read all that you write and would agree on some points.
However as a member of the booking in team I would assure you that it would not be practical to have joining facilities at THAT point of entry. Be it that you want to enjoy the benefits of reduced entry to the Rally then you have just less than 12 months to join. Why do wait till you get there? There is a lot more to the PFA than the Rally you know.
To revert for a moment to the booking in element of this I have noticed a very peculier thing about pilots in general. The format for booking in is as follows:
The pilot is asked the following simple questions in this sequence...
Registration mark
Aircraft type
First name of pilot
POB
Where from.

This year ( as usual) NOT ONE PILOT was able to answer question3.
Makes you think doesn't it?

I too would like to see some changes to the Rally. I don't want it to fold any more than most people. For some it has been the only way to fly cheaply which is what it should be all about.
If anyone out there who is not working the PFA Bulletin Board has anything tangible to input then please consider letting the PFA or one of its EC members know. All good suggestions will be gladly received.

Thanks.

[TonyR]

I was hoping that after last year and having talked to a number of EC members, things would change at the PFA.

But it would appear that this "we run the PFA and don't give a ***** what you say" attitude still prevails.

From what I hear the traders as well as visitors to the rally were doing pleanty of complaining but no one at HQ was taking any notice.

The BMAA however seem to be doing all the right things and perhaps it is time for them to seek approval to permit aircraft currently done by the PFA.

Sorry to be so negitive but I think it will soon be RIP PFA

Tony

[Peeking Duck]

You state that "The pilot is asked the following simple questions in this sequence...
Registration mark
Aircraft type
First name of pilot
POB
Where from.This year ( as usual) NOT ONE PILOT was able to answer question3. Makes you think doesn't it?"

Well it is the format of your booking in form that is the problem as every pilot probaby quoted their SURNAME first as I did; on asked "Name?" Every airfield I have ever been to on booking in requires the surname NOT the Christian name.

I cannot accept the lame comment that it is not possible to register at THAT point of entry, it used to bepossible !!!
Just another bloody excuse. The pilots want it but some bod decides NO.

Typical:\

[scottish_ppl]

I think the real gain on the membership would be at the drive-in gate, as i would expect most intersted pilots to already be members!

It seems like a great marketing opportunity to me.

But, hey, we're getting all negative here again. My post was meant as praise for an event that I enjoyed, with a couple of minor points tacked on the bottom.

I think most things are being done well and the rally as a whole was a damn good advert for the PFA.

Hopefully thats the majority view.

[McFunkletrumpet]

Peeking Duck...you are right indeed. Everyone answers the question with their surname. We don't say NAME? we say "pilots first name? or in my case "first name of pilot.?" It isn't a public school mentality you know.
You say the pilots want the facility to join the PFA at the Rally or more specifically at the Booking in tent. I have never been aware of that facility at that point in all the years I've been doing the job.
On a good day we have a rather long peak period with anything up to 20 pilots waiting in a line to book in at any one time . This can go on for nearly 2 hours and is very frustrating for them. Having your passengers by your side swells the numbers at the tent to, I think, an unacceptable level. I would hate to think what turmoil would ensue if we had people trying to fill in Membership application forms, looking for their Visa cards to find the numbers to put on the form and all the other attendant problems of congestion.
If, however a scheme could be devised to have this processed away for the said area I agree it would be an added bonus for us.
Have you anything to say to point us in a sensible direction re this please? Anything constuctive would be appreciated I'm sure.
Please feel free to PM me. Thanks.

[Monocock]

For what it's worth. I quite enjoyed it.

Yeah sure, the chips are expensive but so what.
The tat stalls weren't there......good job too!
There were plenty of a/c to see.
I arrived after lunch on Sunday and a family of four entry was £20

All in all, I would give it 8 out of 10.

[Peeking Duck]

If it cannot be at CONTROL then it would be easy to issue a voucher to be redeemed at the PFA tent once the pilot had renewed HIS/HER membership or decided to join as new member. A little of imagination is all that is called for to encourage members to renew and attract new blood.

I can remember discussions at Sywell EC years ago, as how to stop the haemorrhaging of membership year on year.

This would attract NEW membership and encourage existing members to rejoin.

If you think about it ; it is a great incentive for PILOTS to join and that is what is needed rather than non pilots.

In 2008 Permit for A/C will cease if JAR has it's way and it is PILOTS that will suffer most. We need to swell the ranks and produce a greater lobby for GA than we do at the moment.
That is what the PFA should be concentrating on. There is a strength in numbers. This rally did not help in this aim.

I am sure VODAPHONE signed up more customers than the PFA did

[McFunkletrumpet]

Thanks PD.
Just as an aside I bet the PFA signed up more new members than that bloke got rid of Teddy Bears. What he was doing there is anybodys guess. He looked SO out of place and got my vote for the "most bored person on the field"

[Windy Militant]

The Guy with the teddys has been coming for yonks I remember him or rather the girls working the stand at Cranfield.
Don't forget that some of the concession holders fly as well. I got talking to a guy at one of the stands who said he flew a Warrior. I found out later he had the chipshop concession.

All in all it was a good rally for me, not the best but still good. Also it would have been a bit less blurry if I'd not found the Ogri MCC on Saturday night but that, is as they say a different story.

[map5623]

In 2008 Permit for A/C will cease if JAR has it's way and it is PILOTS that will suffer most.
How many pilots do you think realise this.If flying is like the rest of life 95% are happy to sit back and let 5% sort out the problems and do the organising. I am sorry to say that "that is how life seem to go", unless you know better

[Flyin'Dutch']

MFT,

The attitude which seems to radiate from the PFA is very much the one which TonyR 'verbalises'

You kindly inviteIf anyone out there who is not working the PFA Bulletin Board has anything tangible to input then please consider letting the PFA or one of its EC members know. All good suggestions will be gladly received. but it seems that even those that do write on the PFA BB don't get listened to and those that don't agree with the 'official line' get marginalised by the people that are in charge of the PFA and like to do a bit of navel gazing.

From reading the PFA BB and for that matter any BB you only have to read the postings to understand that not all is well with the PFA.

I can only observe from these and the PFA magazine that there are a lot of issues floating about making a lot of people very unhappy on the one side and that there is not the ability or the willingness from the PFA to address these or at least communicate with its members and the aviation community at large (which should be potential members) whether and how these issues are going to be tackled.

Have no axe to grind, don't know anybody personally within the association, have no permit aircraft, just observe how all this unhappiness is unfolding in front of my eyes as a member, signed up by the way at the entrance to Cranfield some time ago, at the gate, paying with a bit of plastic, to enjoy the advertised, reduced rate.

FD

[Peeking Duck]

Thanks, I could'nt agree more, I have e-mailed the PFA today but did not even get a reply. Cest la Vie.

Virtually every A'c I have owned or been a group of has been either a PFA permit of CAA permit as now

I suppose I have 6 years left before we are railroaded into Cert that will wipe out most GA of the face of the map.http://www.pilotweb.co.uk/assets/images/image_gallery/lgImages/229/229_CJ6_turn_under3D7U6862.JPG

[paulc]

I was at Kemble on Saturday as a photographer/enthusiast/aviation fan and found the event to be quite reasonable.

I did email the PFA with a couple of comments though

a) Pleased that the gates opened early
b) Wristbands were a good idea and would have reduced queuing times
c) facilities/toilets were ok although more litter bins would have been useful
d) shuttle buses worked much better than last year

not so good things :

a) long queues to get out onto main A419 - no police presence
b) conflict with another major aviation event - ie Flying Legends
at Duxford (as per last year) Will the same happen next year ?
(Flying Legends next year is 9th & 10th July)

As for £25 entrance fee for non members - compared to RIAT / Legends / Farnborough etc - good value.

Have the PFA considered a 'associate' category of membership for those who do not fly/own aircraft etc but still want to feel part of an organisation that promotes GA.

[Jodelman]

"I have e-mailed the PFA today but did not even get a reply."

You e-mailed on Monday and the PFA web page clearly states that the office is closed until Tuesday as all staff are at the Rally. How would you like to work all weekend and then have to clear up at Kemble on the Monday and be in the office on Tuesday!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Apart from which, it's not entirely reasonable to send an Email to any organisation, expecting a thorough, well thought-out response, and get a reply the same day.

G

[TonyR]

I don't think you can expect a reply for a few days, but the rallye is not really the problem.

There are so many issues with the PFA, I just don't think they will survive long term.

2008 is going to be a problem for all permit aircraft and we need a strong association to overcome this.

To me, even the PFA move from a GA friendly airfield to Turweston with it's restrictions seems to be typical of the decisions made by the EC.

Perhaps a new management team can change things but at the moment that does not look like happening.

Tony

[2Donkeys]

I have never owned a Permit type, nor do I expect to, but I had seriously considered joining the PFA up to a couple of years ago. In that regard, I think I am probably typical of many owner/pilots of "C of A" aircraft.

AOPA in the UK is (IMHO of course) something of a disaster, apparently doing little for the average pilot, at enormous cost. AOPA's role in the extending of JAR-FCL into the world of the private pilot should go down in aviation history as one of the biggest own-goals on record. At the very best, let's be charitable about it and suggest that it doesn't publicise all the good works it does particularly effectively.

By contrast, the PFA of two or more years ago presented an upbeat can-do image. It gave the impression of being in the same corner as the owner/pilot fighting against the issues of the day. Those issues are no-less important for owners of "spamcans", beset by Mode S, PRNAV, JAR-FCL, EASA, et al, and the PFA looked like a good bet to fight our corner too.

Since then, the public perception has slipped a bit. Public infighting, bitchiness on bulletin boards, the apparent inability to listen to the membership, and a Rally that appears to be losing direction even faster than it loses money.

It would be nice to see a revamped, re-energised PFA willing and able to represent the broad church of GA owner/pilots in this country that currently lack effective representation. We are too small an interest group to divide ourselves up into taildraggers, home-builders, microlights, aerobatics pilots, foreign tourers, people with instrument ratings etc etc etc

There are a lot of people out there with spending power waiting to be represented.


2D

[scottish_ppl]

hmm, non-member, and you only went to the rally because someone gave you a free ticket, then had a 45 minute whizz through.

Yep, that really gives you a strong platform to offer criticism from...

[2Donkeys]

So long as the PFA wishes to attract non-members to the Rally and to welcome them as new recruits, there is room for legitimate feedback from non-members who attended.

I thought my comments were amongst the more constructive I've heard over the last few days scottish_ppl. Sorry you don't seem to like them.

2D

[Evo]

At the "grass roots" level the PFA can be fantastic, as evidenced by the PFA engineer who turned out at short notice when we needed some work signed off and then refused any payment for his services (and in my, admittedly limited, experience his commendable dedication to the aims of the organization is commonplace). However, I do have some concerns about the choices being made at a senior level and I think 2Ds has got it just about right.

And I am a PFA member.

[Mike Cross]

hmm, non-member, and you only went to the rally because someone gave you a free ticket, then had a 45 minute whizz through. A criticism that unfortunately typifies the reaction of many PFA members to any constructive comment.

You state exactly what happens when the Rally fails to deliver something that people will enjoy, want to go to, and be willing to pay for.

Having been given the evidence that amply demonstrates that the Rally failed to deliver you commentYep, that really gives you a strong platform to offer criticism from... I totally agree with you, it does!

I am also a member of the PFA and was there for all three days. I agree with 2Ds and Evo.

(see you tomorrow Evo!)

Mike

[Whirlybird]

It would be nice to see a revamped, re-energised PFA willing and able to represent the broad church of GA owner/pilots in this country that currently lack effective representation. We are too small an interest group to divide ourselves up into taildraggers, home-builders, microlights, aerobatics pilots, foreign tourers, people with instrument ratings etc etc etc


Absolutely spot-on. :ok: :ok: :ok:

And I am a PFA member, though I've no idea why, seeing as all it gets me is a magazine with nothing in it I can't get in the other mags, and cheap entrance to the Rally. Hmmm...this thread is making me wonder whether I should tear up that renewal letter on my desk.....

[Zlin526]

Glad you all (well, most of you!) enjoyed it. I stopped attending some years back when the PFA started charging pilots & members to fly-in with their aircraft. I'm not that tight, but these are the same pilots and aircraft that if they didnt land, would effectively end the spectacle of lots of aeroplanes and the PFA wouldnt have a rally! £100.00 for our foreign friends to land? No wonder they're not coming back!

Quote from Peeking Duck - I once ran the Berkshire strut with over 200 members and gave that up, as the PFA was more concerned then with in house politics rather than flying.

I thought that was still the case???

[Peeking Duck]

Just checked my first log book and I first flew into my first Cranfield PFA Rally on the 7/7/1984 on the way back from touring in France, we had to divert to Old Warden as the Airshow was due to start and flew in afterwards my Chariot for this event was a Cessna 172n G-BHAN club A/C; as Chippy G-BCSL was already there of which I had a share. Since then I have flown numerous A/C to the Rally from Luton Minors to PITTS S1, and I can honestly say that last weekend had to be the worst.

This time after browsing the stalls (30 mins) we took off after only two hours at the event, just before the Airshow(?) Started.

Those that have compared this event with IAT and even the Silverstone GP are on a different planet to most people who attended.
As some one just mentioned Billed as the BIGGEST
FLY-IN OUTSIDE OF THE USA, just does not cut it anymore, long gone are the days that 2000 A/C turned up. ENTRY FEES have to be a factor. But there are those that will bury their head in the sand to this view.

Last year was not bad. Even so I have to agree with the criticism so far.

At one of the EC meetings ten years ago the motion came up to change the name of the PFA (which still comes up as Professional Footballers Association on every search engine "Nuff said") To something that would attract PILOTS, I say that again PILOTS.

99% of glider pilots join the BGPA and the same with BMPA and BWPA and all parachutists join the BPA. PFA means nothing in 2004. Sorry guys but it's true, which is why only a small percentage of registered PPL’s joining.

AOPA I believe should be stronger and as mentioned recently in PILOT MAG, AOPA in EUROPE combining all countries; has the potential of 200,000 members, Now that’s a lobby group that could take a lesson from AOPA USA.

I am not anti PFA on the contrary; I even have the rather expensive PFA Credit card and stick the Rally sticker in my log book every time and as previous mentioned was an active member at grass roots.

BUT as in allot of organisations we have people that behave like TRAFFIC WARDENS with new hats (or John Prescot, which ever seems appropriate) in charge that choose to concentrate on things that will not help the long term survival of the PFA.

2008 will be a crisis but I see nothing happening to try and change the loss of permits, apart from the proposed two-year extension to 2010. Where does that leave people building aircraft now??

Any way the original posting now seems to have produced a healthy debate that I hope the EXCEC takes notice of!!
:ok: :ok:

[treadigraph]

Errrrr... was there an airshow? If there was on Saturday I didn't notice it... I had hoped Mark Jeffries' Extra would liven things up...

First time I've been in nearly a decade. Originally as a spotter, later as a simple enthusiast of things vintage and homebuilt. Latterly as an appreciative passenger in an Archer. This time round by road with a colleague who wishes to learn to fly and is considering a share in a PFA project. How did he feel? Too polite by far I think....

For me there were few aeroplanes of real interest, weather being the factor. But I saw interesting aeroplanes disappearing over to the north side. Couldn't be bothered to traipse over there in the bus.

So: keep vintage and PFA types on the south side. Reserve North side for overspill Spam Cans (sorry but we've all seen hundreds of PA-28s and C172s).

I recognised a few people: James Black, Martin Robinson and Whirlybird (sorry, I should have come and said hello, but you were in deep conversation!) plus the four women manning the BWPA stand who seemed familiar but none of which Whirly or Aerbabe! And G-KEST's mount. And a flier from the redoubtable Maurice Kirk "special adviser (sic) to the CAA". Sorry G-KEST, but I did enjoy that!

Bloke with Teddies? Why? Radio Whatsit Live Bus? Ditto... There'll be a funfair next...

Raod traffic exiting - appalling! Sort it out please Gloucs Constab.

Will I come next year - if Fish predicts great weather, yes...

[scottish_ppl]

Maybe the Teddy Bear Salesman was there to provide company for this little chap, seen on Sunday:


http://publish.hometown.aol.co.uk/tralix/myhomepage/pfa%20rally%202004%20teddy%20resized.jpg

[shortstripper]

Peking Duck ...

99% of glider pilots belong to the BGA because all clubs have to be affilliated and by default so do their pilots. The PFA has no "captive" membership and relies solely on people wanting to be join. You don't even "have" to be a member to own a PFA permit aeroplane! ... so let's not get too hung up on membership comparisons. Also the days of 2000 aircraft attending the rally are not long gone as over 2000 attended last year. This year you would expect a lot less due to the weather, but even so, I believe over 1000 dropped in ... so not bad considering; do you not think?

I've been a member since I was 17 and as I'm easily pleased and not too fussy I always enjoy the rally. That said, I can see why some might find it a bit lack-lustre. But for those of us interested in the engineering side as much as the flying side, there is plenty to see and do. I do see the rally as the main recruiting tool though, and think we do need to do a lot more to promote ourselves ... but can't the same be said of general aviation in general?

I think the Northside parking area should be for club types or at least for those not stopping overnight ... my shoes got very wet walking over for breakfast Saturday morning :sad: I think the mini airshows of previous years should be reinstated as we all know that airshows help draw a crowd. The most important thing though, should be the promotions and opportunities to join. Entrance fees reduced for people joining on the day would go a long way to increasing membership and hopefully a reasonable percentage of those who join might stay.

SS

[Sam the man]

View from an exhibitor.

Last Year - 80-90 degrees, 2200 aircraft fly in and everyone has a great rally. (Shame about the toilets which was sorted this year - well done PFA)

This Year - Crap weather - 970 (approx) aircraft turn up.

Something is screamingly obvious with this one. The reason so many people didn't turn up was due to the weather. I don't doubt some people were put of with prices but come on - last week I spent £220 on flying (student) and didn't go anywhere more interesting than Fenland (no offence Fenland!). To land at an event with so many things to see and learn from and pay just £25 is something that I am looking forward to. I just hope the PFA continue to organise it.

Last year the PFA made a loss. This year they need to break even. They had to put prices up. Where they went wrong and Mike Cross and myself have discussed this for some time is in the marketing. If you landed, paid your £25 as a non member and were given a voucher for say £15 or even the whole lot to use against the cost of a full membership then the PFA would have gained many more members - not just this year but for many years to come.

However, I do have to say that I thought the organisation of the rally was excellent and the PFA deserve a lot of credit for the rally itself. It's the highlight of the GA event calender for me (personally) and the most successful event we have ever attended. Would have been a lot better if the sun had stayed out but there you go.

I think the PFA deserve all the credit in the world for putting on this event. It just needs some thought about how to turn more attendees into PFA members and some other 'GA' attractions.

On another note Mark Jeffries display was awe inspiring. Real style and the man has areobatics down to a fine art.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have to say, Mark Jeffries display largely made me feel ill - I'm just glad that I wasn't actually IN the aircraft. Very impressive nonetheless.

Your other points seem fair to me, although it's clearly very hard to guess which is the major player between entrance cost and the weather, clearly they were both significant.

G

[EastMids]

To land at an event with so many things to see and learn from and pay just £25 is something that I am looking forward to.

And good for you... But it isn't £25 - by the time I've loaded two or even three marginally interested passengers into the club's PA-28, its £100. That's another hour's flying. And what do I get for my £100? I'm at Kemble for maybe three hours (club probably won't let me have the a/c for longer on a weekend), I get parked on the north side, spend a while walking to the bus, wait for the bus to the south side, spend an hour or so walking around tat stalls and buying overly-expensive burgers, see a few aircraft (but no airshow, which doesn't really help with the marginally interested passengers), go back to the north side on the bus when it shows up, and fly home again.

So instead of going to what i regarded as the over-priced PFA rally, we went to Sleap (slightly shorter flight), paid £8 to land, had a nice lunch in their bar, chatted a bit, and then flew home again - good time was had by all. Total cost around half of going to the PFA.

Sorry, I'm not mean, but the PFA are going to have to look seriously at what they charge the very people who make the event what it is - those who fly in - before I go again, and I've been going to the rally for a number of years. I heard that the rally made a loss last year - well, the solution isn't to put up the prices to the point where you put even more customers off.

Andy

[LowNSlow]

Disappointed. I didn't miss the tat stalls that much but they did leave a big gap. My passenger paid 25 quid to get in and he was a bit cheesed off but the offer of 20% off the joining fee made it seem a little better. He had been expecting to join at the Rally like I had a number of years ago.

A few sugestions:

Can't there be reasonable rates for people participating in an aerojumble marquee?

As other people have mentioned, how about an hour's worth of airshow. There must be suitably qualified members who can provide this at cost?

A static park with the Kemble based aircraft in it would have been very interesting to see even if they were penned off to prevent general access.

Don't go down the classic British route of "we're losing money, let's raise costs." I appreciate that the PFA (and the Rally) needs to make a profit. I don't think charging people 25 quid to get in is going to encourage them a) to come back next year or b) to join the PFA. Better to try to improve the service and make themselves into an organisation that the average GA pilot wants to join.

All in all, if I had remembered that Flying Legends was on (it'd been a hectic week) I'd have gone there instead.

PS shortstripper you do need to be a member to own a PFA aeroplane. Well you dd when I had a Cub.

[Sam the man]

The point I am making is that £25 is not a huge amount of money in aviation or event terms.

A couple of weeks ago I paid £29.50 for a ticket to see Paul Weller in concert.

A month ago I took the kids and the good lady to the Zoo and it cost me £35.

My point is that all things are relative (especially in Norfolk!!) and if you don't think it's good value it's not good value. I believe that with a good offer to join the PFA with the £25 ticket, memberships would go up significantly and revenues year on year would grow.

[G-KEST]

Flew down Thursday pm in fairly unpleasant weather via Rendcomb to see my daughter. Got a magic AFIS service on final with a crosswind gusting to 25 knots at 80 degrees to the runway. The AFISO gave me a continuous broadcast of wind off the anemometer so I could check I was inside my personal limits. Nice B&B in Nailsworth.
Friday great, meeting loads of friends and making new ones. Trade exhibition definately down on previous years but some gems among the tat. Same with aircraft where the numbers were down - anyone flying VFR in a light aircraft especially if not IMC rated would have thought twice about coming on the basis of the TAF's and METARS. In actual fact it was never that bad but after all we were there already. Mark Jefferies excellent display in the EXXON sponsored Extra 300S was all above board and sanctioned by both the CAA and PFA operations.
Saturday was similar in terms of weather and visitors but all seemed to be having a reasonable time with some enjoyable bits.
Flew out 0740 Sunday back to EGBG in order to drive down to Legends.where my warbird passions were totally sublimated with an absolutely brilliant show.
All in all a weekend that would be hard to beat.
Thanks all involved at the PFA - especially Penny who put her all into it.
Whatever you think this was the biggest number of light aircraft you are likely to see over three days in the UK this year.
Long may it continue but I am certain there will be changes in time for "FLYING FOR FUN 2005" which may well be the new focus for the PFA rally.
Trapper 69

:ok:

Just checked my own logbook prompted by the thought that my first PFA rally was a fair while ago. It was 1958 at Little Snoring when the, then, Fakenham Flying Group hosted a rally which attracted all of 22 aircraft, 5 of which were our own. Harold Best-Devereux, John Blake, Norman Jones along with a Tiger Club contingent and Roy Mills were there along with 4 aircraft from "le Reseau de Sport del\'Air". We had a great time with several bi-lingual check outs on each others aeroplanes then a fabulous dinner held at the USAF Sculthorpe Officers Club. The booze was at duty free rates and flowed in gallons. Oh..! the hangover was stupendous on the Sunday morning. A memorable occasion followed by so very many more including those halcyon events at Sywell, Leicester, Cranfield and Wroughton.
Thanks indeed for all those memories and friends some of whom are long gone.
PFA no matter what its shortcomings is THE flying organisation that fights for the chance for all of us to fly for fun, many of us in aircraft we ourselves have built at the lowest possible cost. That is not to denigrate the BMAA or the BGA who also do a grand job but for those who fly "conventional" light aircraft the PFA is it.
The PFA AGM is to be held in the near future and there are a fair number of new faces putting up for the EC (Executive Committee). Why not come along to voice your praises and any grievances face to face. It is a democratically run organisation and the members get the chance to vote for the guys they think will make the best job of it.
Well thats it from a grey bearded geriatric old fart who has been in GA as P1 for a half century and loved nearly every minute of it.
Cheers,
Trapper 69

[Rod1]

I see a lot of mention on exhibiters and visiting aircraft. Did any of you attend any of the excellent educational forums? Not well marketed, but very good if you found out about them.

I had a good time, but as an aircraft builder I managed to source several bits I needed at very good prices, so I have a different outlook on it to most people. The only cost I would criticise is the camping. I was there for three nights so £20 was ok, but several members wanted to camp for one night and people tried to charge them the full £20. The result was they found a local sight and paid £5.

One other point, nothing much will happen to the PFA in 2008. Home built aircraft are exempt from the regulations! Permits will go on as normal for home builds, and others may join subject to a strong PFA putting up a good fight, or not, as the case may be!

Rod1

[shortstripper]

LowNslow

No you don't have to be a member to own a PFA aeroplane ... well certainly not if a co-owner in a group. As I've been a member for longer than I've owned aeroplanes it's never been an issue for me. As the elected engineer/repair man in a group operating a permit aeroplane I suppose I cover it. However, I know that in such a group all the members do not have to belong to the PFA. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if I was the sole PFA member out of the five of us?

SS

[Flyin'Dutch']

There is currently a proposal to make PFA membership compulsory for all (co-)owners of PFA permit aircraft groups.

You can follow the debate at the PFA website (http://www.pfa.org.uk/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000065;p=1)

FD

[Juliet Papa]

Sorry Shortstripper, you're not the only one;)

I went to the rally Sunday, and was a little disappointed. It seemed a bit flat compared to last years, and I think that whilst the weather may play a part, the attractiveness to the GP (and to flyers who aren't in the PFA) needs to be addressed.

Didn't stop me lusting after the Silence Twister and the Alpi 300 though. SWMBO had to drag me away before I did something I'd have regretted later....

JP

[shortstripper]

Oh good, I'm glad of that JP :p


Closet PFA members come out! stand up and be counted! ;)

SS :ok:

[Warped Factor]

My name's WF.....and I'm a member.

I feel much better for that :)

WF.

[Juliet Papa]

I can see it now...the inaugural meeting of PFAA...

'Hi, I'm Jason, and I've been a PFA'er now for...err...1 year...'

'Welcome Jason, and thanks for sharing that...we all know how hard it must have been for you. Now, tell us how your obsession with flying has affected your life...'

Seriously though - I think that the PFA rally has got to that 'awkward stage' where it's neither a meet for the members nor a show that can be fully appreciated by those who are just interested in aviation. I suppose it will always be like that, but I think with a bit of imagination on behalf of the organisers something could be done to change that. If I'd paid £25 as a member of the public I'd have been cheesed off. If the PFA doesn't make a profit this year (or break even) then a rethink is in order, and I think that some of the ideas posted here (more airshow elements for example) may be worth thinking about.

Mind you, with all the spotters in line, how about a scoring system for arrivals, with marks for style, technique and artistic interpretation....

'arriving now, Juliet Papa with his homage to Barnes Wallace....'

JP

:uhoh:

[LowNSlow]

shortstripper I hadn't thought about a group owned aeroplane.

PS I've been a member (of the PFA) for a few moons now but not as many as G-KEST :oh: :oh:

[Mariner9]

I'm a member too :O :O

Like JP, I was tempted by the Alpi Pioneer, unlike JP, I gave in to the temptation....

[Evo]

In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if I was the sole PFA member out of the five of us?

shortstripper- I'm also a member (as I said a page back) :)

[G-KEST]

If we do want a change in policy on the Rally or indeed the PFA itself then put those thoughts on paper rather than on a forum thread which must be almost as ephemeral as the spoken word. Send it to Graham Newby, the PFA CEO, or to Cliff Mort, the present chairman, at the PFA office at Turweston Aerodrome, Turweston, Brackley, Northants.
Why not come to the AGM if you are a member and if you are not then why not join.
After all the PFA is THE ONLY organisation which does fight for the interests of private, sporting and recreational aviation in conventional light aircraft and especially for those whose pockets are not bulging.
Without the PFA, and as a pensioner, I would find it hard to continue my own flying with the inevitable increase in cost that would result.
If you want change then change it from within - do not carp on the outside....!!
Cheers,
Trapper 69
_________________
http://www.tempest.ndo.co.uk

[TonyR]

G-KEST,

Graham rarely answers questions on his own BB forum.

He has yet to reply to at least 25 emails and letters he received last October.

The AGM is not open to questions outside the agenda, and they only put on the agenda things they want to discuss.

The whole system is set up to keep a small group in power and the rest are treated like mushrooms. ie. kept in the dark and fed loads of manure.


So what else do you suggest??

Tony R

[G-KEST]

TonyR,
I stand by my last posting. The PFA, in the total absence of any alternative is what we now havr. It is a democratically run organisation and any member can exercise his vote to try to get his or her preferred candidate onto the EC. I do recall you were prominent in the furore last autumn regarding a situation which arose in Northern Ireland and involving an aggrieved aircraft purchaser and the original owner along with his inspector. It led to a totally nugatory and acrimonious slanging match in public that actually achieved sod all except to bring certain individuals into, in my personal opinion as a bored bystander, disrepute.
Please reread my previous post. The PFA whether you personally like it or loath is THE organisation that looks after my interests as the part owner of a home built and cherished sport biplane. It does the same for thousands of others who are indeed the silent majority. I do speak as a person involved with the PFA since 1957 when I learned to fly on Tigers at a PFA co-ownership group. I also belong to several other excellent GA organisations but the PFA is truly my spiritual home.
I doubt if I have altered your views one iota by this posting as evidenced by your incessant hammering on a door that had to be closed last year. Some folk love flying and some politics - I really do not like politicians..............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will buy you a beer sometime.
Cheers,
Trapper 69

[TonyR]

There was no reason for a public slanging match on the PFA BB last year.

The management did not reply to nurmerous letters, emails and telephone calls in the 4 weeks after the end of the court case.

I then went public on the PFA BB and the next day the PFA CEO responded to a question which was ask 4 weeks previously by another member, but he told a lie in his answer.

That was why the slanging match happened.

[VP959]

G-KEST wrote: "After all the PFA is THE ONLY organisation which does fight for the interests of private, sporting and recreational aviation in conventional light aircraft and especially for those whose pockets are not bulging."

VP says:

BUT, it doesn't have to be that way. The CAA are happy to delegate authority to oversee homebuilt, or even factory built, light aircraft airworthiness, permit supervision etc to ANY suitable body, or indeed more than one come to that.

I guess that any reasonably well organised aviation association with the necessary technical and quality management expertise could look after the sector the PFA looks after at the moment, should they so choose to.

[G-KEST]

Absolutely right .

Any suitably organised outfit with the required level of expertise and an acceptable exposition could do the PFA's job in terms of responsibilities in respect of virtually all non-microlight permit to fly aircraft.

The real point is that no such organisation currently exists other than the PFA which does hold the necessary approvals from the CAA now.

It has taken over 50 years to establish the credentials of the PFA and respect world wide for the level of technical expertise they have in house and through their network of approved inspectors and test pilots.

Any alternative organisation might find it an extremely difficult task to reach a similar level of fitness to obtain and hold any official approval within any acceptable timescale.

The devil you know is better than the devil you do not especially if it is a democratically controlled operation where members can have a direct influence on policy.

Trapper 69

[locksmith]

especially if it is a democratically controlled operation where members can have a direct influence on policy

As a former member of the PFA, (just left this year) I must have been in a different association to you, are you sure your not a football player?.

Ken

[VP959]

G-KEST: "The real point is that no such organisation currently exists other than the PFA which does hold the necessary approvals from the CAA now.

It has taken over 50 years to establish the credentials of the PFA and respect world wide for the level of technical expertise they have in house and through their network of approved inspectors and test pilots.

Any alternative organisation might find it an extremely difficult task to reach a similar level of fitness to obtain and hold any official approval within any acceptable timescale."

VP says:

You're right about the situation today, but within a few months another organisation might well be able to take on the job equally as well. It certainly isn't a 50 year job to get to where the PFA is technically, although I know from first hand experience that the PFA's FD, JT and Co do a grand job and I'm not knocking them in any way.

As an example, there is another organisation that exists right now, with an equally good, or perhaps better in some respects, network of inspectors and test pilots, plus an established and CAA approved technical department. I doubt it would be terrifically difficult for them to expand their exposition to cover a wider field, if they chose to.

[Flyin'Dutch']

On the PFA BB Graham Newby has posted the following:

What can I say, other than we got it wrong this year,

and conceded that the pricing structure was not right and will be overhauled and that they are keen on comments.

It is always nice to be vindicated but I think the most important point of that posting is that there is interest from the PFA for what people think, say and post.

I'd say that is a positive thing.

I think that the Rally needs to decide what it wants to be; either a PFA club event for mainly members which then can easily be run by the PFA itself or truly the biggest aviation event outside the US and probably needs to be run by a professional event organiser.

That does not mean that I think that those organising the Rally have done a bad job, far from it as I am all to aware of the hard work which is needed to set these things up, more that it is bloody hard work to organise an event of this scale with a mix of volunteers and commercial organisations and a lot of financial pressure.

FD

[G-KEST]

VP959
Hello there - you are correct in that the BMAA does hold approvals from the CAA as well as the PFA and, for that matter DeH Technical Support however the nature of the tasks, IMHO, is very different (being humble is difficult..............!!!) As by far the youngest organisation, compared with the PFA, the BMAA has done really well in looking after Section S factory built micros and, more recently, many but not all homebuilt micros. I think there is some way to go before they could take on the larger task and the sheer variety of types on PFA administered PtoF is mind boggling. The BMAA test pilot introductory course is excellent having been priviledged to attend one this winter but it exists because they have so few TP around the country. It will be interesting to see what results from the present EASA NPA 2/2004 which just might alter the whole regulation and cerification scene for GA as a whole. I do hope so.
Cheers,
Trapper 69

[VP959]

G-KEST,

You're right that the PFA has a wider range of "conventional" types, but the BMAA has a very wide range of aircraft under it's wing now. Also, virtually all microlights were homebuilt until about 20 odd years ago, so they have been looking after homebuilts almost since the day they were first approved. The number of homebuilts that the BMAA is looking after is roughly doubling every year (I think about 60 or so have been signed off so far this year), and IIRC the total number of A/C they look after is now greater than that in the whole PFA fleet by a fair margin.

Of course, they probably aren't really interested in taking on heavier types, but perhaps this might change if the PFA insist on trying to take over more microlight types, who knows?

I still can't quite understand why or how the element of competition ever set in between these two associations. IIRC the PFA actively rejected the idea of having anything to do with microlights at the time that the BMAA was formed. Someone once told me that the formation of the BMAA came about as a pretty direct result of the PFAs action, so it seems odd that rumours of the PFA extending their exposition to take on more microlight work from the BMAA seem to now be doing the rounds.

[TonyR]

With many types faling into both PFA and BMAA camps, and many inspectors doing work for both associations I think the BMAA could if they really wanted to take on heavier types.

Something must be done because if the PFA keeps on falling apart, owners will end up dealing directly with the CAA.

Even the PFA's latest brain storm of compulsory membership for all group owners will end up with less members in the association, it will be impossible to police and members are already leaving under protest.

There are some very good people in the PFA but the management just don't listen to them.

Tony

[Genghis the Engineer]

Offering a slightly different viewpoint to those of G-KEST and VP959.

The PFA and BMAA have both, with the odd glitch, done a very good job for their members. Two large fleets, lots of pilots flying cheaply, a whole raft of hardwon privileges, not to mention Telford and Kemble show that very clearly. Both have from time to time had "bad patches", and it's fairly clear that just at the moment PFA is having one.

However, why is BMAA as successful as it is? - to a fair degree through comparing itself to the benchmark that is the PFA. Why is PFA looking at type-approved microlights? - because the BMAA has made such a success of them.

My point here is that a degree of overlap and competition is actually very healthy. Both are businesses and members organisations. In that capacity, they do compete to an extent - but the only thing that they can really compete with is standards of service.

If you had a single organisation, and no competition, there would be far less drive to ever-better standards of service (or not to charge more than the other mob) and you'd, well, get something not dissimilar to the CAA.

To give a simple example, let's say a new 3-axis homebuilt microlight comes along. With a single organisation, the Chief Engineer could reasonably say "well, it's a lot of effort to approve, our members already have something similar to fly - there's little benefit in pulling the stops out for this". With competition it becomes "we'd better do a good job on this, otherwise it'll go to the other organisation, and they'll have the long-term airworthiness and membership revenue - too many of them and I'll be out of a job".

Without doubt, this level of competition is very stressful to the staff and committees of both organisations, and to a lesser extent to people whose recreational or professional activities straddle both organisations. But, to UK light aviation as a whole, it's very healthy. Arguably if either organisation started taking an interest in gliders or SLMG as well then we'd probably see both even more stress for the professionals, and benefits for glider pilots too.

G

Stressed GA professional who enjoys his cheap flying.