CB's

[baby hormones]

Hey Guys,

Not sure if I have posted it in the right place but here goes.

I am quite a new FO with my company, but the other week on my third flight with a new Captain something happend that I am really not sure how to address.

Coming out of an airport in Europe with active CB's around at night with the weather radar u/s, we were faced with the problem of continue on or divert back due to the CB's.

But the thing that concearned me the most was that my Captain said if we can't get past the CB's, that we will go under them instead.
Now I immiediatley questioned this as I was always tought that this was almost suicide and you keep away from CB's at all costs.

But I was made to feel embarrassed to question the Captain which he did not really like and that I was wrong and that you could fly under CB's at night with a high MSA and be safe. I also feel a bit unsafe every time I fly with him.

Just wondering if any of you guys have some advice on this and to whether you think I was right as I am starting to question my own judgement a bit. Hes a really nice chap, but I question his Captaincy.

Many thanks

Hormones.

[Captain Stable]

Do you know the PACE acronym?

P - Probe
A - Alert
C - Challenge
E - Emergency

This allows you to gently up the ante on each ineraction without threatening the captain and his authority directly.

If you need more info, you can either ask a CRMI in your company, or I'll be glad to expound further here.

[alexban]

Did your radar fail during flight? You should never fly with radar inop if bad weather is forecasted on your route.
This is capt decision,suported by MEL also.I've been always told that the good captain is not the one that comes out of trouble,it's the one that does not enter it.
So,my opinion,at night,radar inop,weather forecast bad -no take off.
Regarding passing bellow CB-you should never pass bellow a mature CB.You can be affected by extreme WS,hail,strong downdrafts.Sometimes,the base of the cloud can be high,m
ore than 6-7000'.This can give you confidence to pass bellow clouds,having good ground clearance.
This must also be avoided,that's what the book says.You can also experience hail,severe turbulance bellow a mature CB,even with high base.
You should watch your a:mad: ,so don't leave with radar u/s.
If the captain wish to,tell him your oppinion,study also the met info,maybe he knows something you don't.Then ,of course,it's his decision,based on his experience,which generally it is bigger than yours. Do not be afraid to fly with him,be there to help him if he makes a mistake,no one has a death wish.
Just curious,how the flight ended that night?
Brgds Alex

[baby hormones]

Thanks guys, much appreicated.

The flight ended with us entering a thunderstorm, being struck by lightning 3 times and also a stall a FL260. Good stuff hey ha.
It took three positive suggestions from me to make a 180 turn and divert back to where we had departed and this was all in my first week on the job.

Cheers

Baby Hormones

[alexban]

wow. If this is the case,maybe a short talk with your chief pilot will help.
What experience does that cpt have? Hrs on type? I know of one LCC that have cpt's with 800TT-300hrs on type.Or 3000hrs on cesna,and 300 hrs on 737 as cpt.
At this level you are almost as experienced as them,and the situation you've been in proved that.
You should do all by the book,specially when you're low on hrs.
After that lovely flight did he realised his mistakes?
Hope so
Brgds Alex

[baby hormones]

I think so. Well for this GA single crew operation (can't mention names or I might get into trouble) even though there is 2 crew its 1000 total time, 100hrs on type. I understand the captain in mention had only previous experience on very light GA.
Not the best to go into the varied enviroment we operate in.

Cheers

Hormones

[alexban]

I thought so.
Weather is not something to joke with.Especially the CB's.You should carefully plan your way around them,and if you enter a storm,it is better not to turn in it.Take the fastest way out of there,and most of the time this is not a 180 turn.But you need radar for that.
There were accidents due to misinterpretation of the weather and of the capabilities of your plane.
I know of some pilots that recently flew bellow a CB,at high altitude,in Africa.They had a chance,because they were not close to the ground.As I've heard,they were at full power,descending with more than 2-3000 '/min.(on a 737) because of a downdraft.

[classic707]

When i compare this article with the one in the

Rumours & News: BMI without WX-Radar into hail - i cannot

understand why people try to get through a TS under all

circumstances!!!

Do the captains have to fear any negative impacts on their

careers from their companies by avoiding CBs or grounding

A/C???

If i insist a captain to enter an area with TS and CBs without

Wx-Radar i will have to face uncomfortable questions!!!

[airmen]

As F/O you should know perfectly the technical part of your bird but included limitations, MEL and procedures. This is of very valuable help for conflict like you had to face. Let assume that you are on gnd and the WX radar is inop, with the MEL you have a tool to hand to the CDR and take apropriate decision. Then in your OM it must be explained how to deal with CB and WX radar, you should be able to reach the information quickly and read it to the guy who is wrong, then he might not say you are wrong. I know it is a lot to know but you have to, especially if you are new in the job. Remember that you have the power to say it if you are not happy with what you see, complacency can kill you and if you go by the book, you will not be blamed.
If you feel uncomfortable with this CDR, it must be for something, talk with your chief pilot before it is too late!

[willfly380]

i agree with alex on all that he has mentioned above. also like to add that with total time going upto more that 16000 hrs on the flight deck [collective] and having engines producing great amount of thrust , i would not even think about taking on a cb from below. the distance as mentioned in the books is from 10 to 25 nm avoidance range from an active cb and 5000ft over it, though i know it is not always possible but the key is avoidance. if you enter try for the shortest route out, a huge turn can perhaps put lot of stress on the wing surface etc.keep a tab on the time for eg if your plane does 4nm per min and the cell is 20nm wide then you will take about 5 min to get through[this is if you have entered one].you got to judge if you can last that long .
if your radar fails in flight and you are in the middle of nowhere then remember the following
1.white lightning.................the cb is close apprx within 60 nm
2.cream lightning................60 - 120nm
3.pink lightning...................120-180nm

[CAT1]

Sorry, but what a load of :mad: Pink lightning? It's silly notions like that that get you zapped. The only thing that affects the apparent colour of a lightning flash is what's between you and the CB in question: the only safe way to tell how close they are is radar. And there's only one rule:stay away from them. Upwind if possible.

[Miles Magister]

Experience is always gained just after you needed it!

In the good old days of yor we used to fly through CBs all the time. Mainly because we did not understand them. My record was 6 lightning strikes on one trip and we still carried on! I have been in a very overpowered big jet, light, and going down with full power on all 4. I have also been in one going up with idle on all 4, gear down and full flap. Not so long ago I was in a small well overpowered light single about 25-30 miles from a CB and going down with full power on.

These days we know that discretion is the better part of valour. If in doubt there is no doubt.

I was recently called at home late one night by a captain as there were lots of horrible CBs all around the departure airfield and his radar was working. I told him to find a hotel and come home in the morning. Fortunately he was positioning home empty so it was an easier decision. Will not do anyone any favours by breaking the jet.

Being a new F/O is difficult these days for the reasons quoted above. However airmen has offered some good advice. Use it but do not abuse it. Come out with carefully thought out comments along the lines of Airmens comments and you will be respected.

[Daysleeper]

not trying to divert from the topic I like capt stable 's PACE acronym.
got any more?

[alf5071h]

PACE and a few other things are here: ALF (http://uk.geocities.com/[email protected]/alf5071h.htm).

[Daysleeper]

thanks alf, they look like good articles.

[willfly380]

cat1 please read my post again. i have not said put your radar off and look for the colours. people always think that the radar fails only after take off but it can fail in the middle of you negotiating serious wx.this is only when the radar has failed and you have to get to the nearest safe spot.