Our Boats in Iran

[Open Sauce]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,12858,1251575,00.html

Although I don't routinely read the Guardian - this article troubles me. I also don't like to speculate, but, perhaps, if we don't go asking for the boats back we could save a few bob out of the treasury?

[ZH875]

if we don't go asking for the boats back we could save a few bob out of the treasury?
But if we get them back, we will not have to buy new boats to replace them, and save even more.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

If they had been in the right place instead of lost they would not have had the unfortunate problems they experianced :ok:

However as the Navy have a recent history of boats not being where they should be is it a real surprise:E

all spellimg mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Maybe not... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/01/uiran.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/07/01/ixportaltop.html)

[Trumpet_trousers]

....shooting from the lip, as usual.

Mate, why don't you f*ck off and start an amoeba breeding farm or something similarly more useful......
you could even enrol on a spelling and life-skills course before you go.....christ knows you need it. Tw@t!

:mad:

[allan907]

I once had an amoeba farm. Carefully nurtured the product to maturity then it became an Albert driver:ok:

Bit over the top TT - having a bad day?

[Nearly Free]

ABIW, I wouldn't be too hard on the matelots as 6 of the 8 personnel were Marines. This whole incident became something of a microcosm of recent RM history; first they get lost (anyone remember the amphibious landing exercise in Gibraltar when they actually stormed ashore to be met by two bemused Spanish policemen? Only a few miles out chaps) followed by instant surrender (Falklands?).
So we now have a RM produced pamphlet entitled "The waterways of the Persian Gulf and how to enjoy them", to go with the "Coastal map of Gibraltar" (unused) and "RM Tactics aide memoire" (relevant passage being "Reaction to effective enemy fire: lay weapon carefully on the ground, stand up and raise arms above the head).
Now if THAT doesn't create some interesting feedback......

[outlaw51]

You've got your first bite, Nearly Free. And much as I hate to take the bait, I must defend the Marines of the naval party who were left to try to hold East Falkland against a force many times their number in 1982.

There were just 64 of them and their heaviest weapon was a Carl Gustav.

Despite this, the Booties fought a steady rearguard action which ended only when they were surrounded and pinned down in and around Government House in Stanley. The building was riddled with incoming and it was pure, blind chance that most of the defenders did not become casualties. They did, however, inflict a number of Argentinian casualties during the action, including knocking out at least one LVPT at close range.

Major Mike Norman, the detachment commander, only agreed to surrender on the instructions of Rex Hunt, the Falkland Islands governor, in a conversation which took place on hands and knees beacuse everything above that level was being subjected to mg, rifle and 20mm cannon fire.

I was privileged to witness the same naval party raise the Union flag over Government House on the recapture of the islands. ;)

[Navaleye]

Well said outlaw51!

I do not subscribe to the getting "lost" theory. Iran has taken a political drubbing of late and this has been an easy way of taking some retaliation on a soft target.

The RN is not in the habit of letting foreign powers sieze their vessels and have them get away with it. I would like to see the screw turned very tighly on Iran.

Now expecting Pr00ne to pop up with one of his rambling nonsensical arguments.

[Zoom]

Re Iran, one report stated that the river was 1 mile wide at that point, that the border went up the middle and that the Iranians had stated that the boats were 1/2 mile into Iranian waters. That puts the Marines sunning themselves on the Iranian beach by my reckoning.

Re parading the captives blindfolded on TV, we should have known that this would happen as soon as the Coalition forces released video of Saddam having his mouth and beard examined by American medics. The Gulf states tend to regard a humiliation on one of them as an insult to them all - especially when Americans are involved.

[airborne_artist]

The Iranians had been looking for leverage with UK/USA since GW2 commenced, and the RN/RM patrol boats presented the perfect opportunity.

The guys were in the right place at the wrong time.

BuffHoon is a daft ****, though:

"Our assessment continues and will be greatly assisted by the retrieval of navigational information in the Global Positioning System equipment carried by the crews."

Does he really imagine that the Iranians won't have wiped the GPS units clean inside before returning them?

[SilsoeSid]

The RN is not in the habit of letting foreign powers sieze their vessels and have them get away with it. I would like to see the screw turned very tighly on Iran.
Was there not a case not too long ago when an RN vessel and crew was held, by the Spanish I think?
I remember them getting away with it lightly!

"But in a written Commons statement, Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon said: "In a recent debriefing the crews have said that they were operating inside the Iraqi border and were forcibly escorted into Iranian territorial waters.....
Mr Hoon also disclosed that the Iranians have failed to comply with Tuesday's deadline set for the return of the British equipment, including three boats, weapons, ammunition, radios and navigational equipment."

Looking at the map of the area, maybe a simple missed turning is all it's about......maybe :suspect:

'Forcibly escorted' what does that exactly mean? Wot no fight!! Hardly in tradition.

Another deadline past. Why do these people make deadlines, which are a threat of action, and never do anything about the passing thereof?

Oh, nice of the Naval spokesman to say that when they eventually get the GPS back, they will be able to verify the positions.
2 things;

1. If I was the 'opposition' who had the GPS now, I think I might start thinking of dumping all the GPS memory.
2. If the GPS showed the boats were in the wrong place, would they come clean?

As UB40 said, "Food for Thought"

[Navaleye]

It depends of course on what RoE were in force at the time. They only had small arms. A cannon armed fpb would be more than a match for lightly armed troops in an open boat.

Maybe we should have a TOW armed Lynx patrolling the area in addition. That would make them think twice
:ok:

[Muppet Leader]

Why not get Uncle Sam to have a quick look at the pictures off the geo stationary satellite.
Definitive answer straight away me thinks.

Then we’ll see who is telling porkies.

[airborne_artist]

Maybe we should have a TOW armed Lynx patrolling the area in addition. That would make them think twice

Good idea, NE, but I think that the few available armed helos are providing convoy and quick reaction force cover.

[callsign Metman]

Muppet,
Methinks even Uncle Sam might be struggling with imagery from a geostationary bird at 36000km.

CM

[Ali Barber]

I read somewhere that, although the border between Iran and Iraq was established as the deepest (middle) point, Iran then calimed the entire waterway up to the Iraqi beach following the Iran/Iraq war. So any boat in the water is in Iranian territory - accoriding to the Iranians. It may just be that they are trying to reinforce their claim.

[mini]

What was the threat assesment? these guys are claiming that they were "grabbed" so to speak, its pretty poor that they they left themselves open...

[polyglory]

I guess it would depend on the size of barrel /barrels pointed in their direction, after all they only had Sa 80's.

If the kit is returned, which I doubt, I bet the GPS system is blank.:mad:

[Open Sauce]

I expect the boats won't be returned. But if Buff's threat of 'very bad things' or similar, occuring if they are not then we could be in a very interesting situation. My, subtle, point about saving a few bob was directed at our not investing in fetching them back ourselves. I doubt that we could - I expect we would be soundly thrashed and sent away if we turned-up demanding their return. Iran has, allegedly, the following:

F-4s - 65, F-5s - 60, F-14s - 25, F-6s 16, F-7s- 24, MiG-29s - 25
Su-22s - 40, Su-25s - 7, Su-24s - 30, Mirage F-1s - 24 MiG-23s - 12 and 320 combat helicopters.

Add around 1600 MBTs and around 520 000 personnel in their forces.

We, on the other hand, have, probably, the following:

Harrier - 42, Jags - 36, Tornado GR - 70, F3 - 60, Eurofighter Geoffhoon - a couple, and some support helos.

Add around 250 MBTs and 304 000 personnel in our forces.

NOW I can see reasons for a defense review.

All the above from 10 minutes surfing with google.

[Navaleye]

I suspect that little of the the kit you quote is actually usable. A squadron of the latest spec F3s with AMRAAMs would be more than a match for their airforce. A CVS could provide local air superiority to cover such a mission. Storm Shadow strikes could take out local AA assets. A well planned surgical strike could be successful.

Everyone said the same thing about the Falklands 23 years ago. It could be done - but is it worth it? and would the incompetant weasels we have for politicians have the spine? I doubt it.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Having to operate right next to Iran would probably make things impossible. And we havn't got the forces to do our current jobs.

If it was possible (which it isn't), would it be worth it? NO!! Three piddly little boats, not worth shedding a single drop of blood over.

[pr00ne]

Navaleye,


..."A well planned surgical strike could be successful.".....


To achieve WHAT exactly?


Don't we have enough on our plates now in that region without taking on Iran and all that would entail as well? World opinion is not exactly on our side now, or haven't you noticed? A totally unjustified and unprovoked strike on Iran would really kick things off big time.

Wuckfit!

[Navaleye]

You are both right of course. I did ask is it worth it? Over three small boats? No .

[Arclite01]

How long have Minimi been standardard issue to the RM ?

The pics I saw certainly included these as well as the SA80 stuff and several other interesting goodies.

And Magellans ?

Come on were these guys really 'lost' ?

Or are we not getting the full story here ?

Arc

[Fg Off Max Stout]

The troops were put on display with weapons, including M-16s, which were nothing to do with them, and were procurred by other means or from other conflicts.

The boys were also pretty certain that they were forcibly taken into Iranian waters. Persian empire flexing its muscles its muscles in light of the nuclear energy/wepaons situation, methinks.

Not worth starting a war over but how about expelling some diplomats.

[Navaleye]

Fg Off Max Stout

Agree.

[StopStart]

Brit forces have been using the Minimi for some time now.

[timzsta]

GPS is about as useful as a chocolate fire guard when your doing coastal / river navigation. Take Bahrain for example. When your slap bang in the middle of the channel GPS will reliably tell you that your about 200 yards north of where you are. So if you went by good old infallable GPS you would be well and truely on the putty.

Sometimes diplomacy is the best method (take note Bush and Blair). What would have those Marines opening fire resulted in? Probably their death and a war....

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Tim,

Serious question fella as I genuinly do not know the answer. Havin done the GPS/50 thou comparison in the Emerald Isle and a whole host of other places and found the error to be measured in feet as opposed to yards why is the misalignment you suggest occuring.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[BEagle]

Presumably both map and GPS are using WGS84 co-ordinate systems...???

[maxy101]

Silly question here, but did they have Military issue GPS or were they using their own kit? I understand that quite a few guys procure their own kit due to shortages or simply wanting better than issued kit. If it was their own GPS, I guess it could have been degraded due to selective availability.

[ORAC]

Iran uses ED50 as well as WGS84. See here (http://www.gsi.go.jp/PCGIAP/95wg/wg3/geodinf.htm). There is a 125 metre difference, and it would seem a lot of hydrographic charts (http://www.hydro.nl/articles/artikel2_en.htm) are based on it.

I wonder what charts either or both were using.......

[Out Of Trim]

Perhaps.. we could procure some of their boats and arrange an exchange! ;)

[Pilgrim101]

Hmmmm - Do we have something fast enough to catch a Boghammer ? ;)

[airborne_artist]

Always assuming that the charts had been correctly surveyed in the first place, and that nothing has changed since then...

We are talking about mud/sand held in place by reeds, and the continuous flow of varying (with the seasons) amounts of water here, not big lumps of granite that erode by 1mm in 100 years.

[steamchicken]

The border was defined under the 1975 Algiers Agreement as the "thalweg", that is the centreline of the deep water channel. In a tidal estuary full of sandbanks, though, the deep water channel doesn't stay put and therefore: neither does the border.

[Jacks Down]

Maxy101,

Selective ability is no longer in use - civvy GPS is as accurate as military now. This has been the case for a couple of years. The only 'safeguard' built in is that the spams can turn of the civilian part of the signal entirely, so only military receivers can work.

JD

[Navaleye]

It seems our boys were subjected to wholly inappropiate treatment by the Iranians. If the papers are correct and Iran is next on Uncle Sam's destabilisation policy then, I'm all for it. Iran is far more of a menace than Iraq ever was.

Iran menace (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13163475,00.html)

[Lafyar Cokov]

It does seem like that there is a whole load of bo**ocks talked on this subject. From someone who was out there when this event happened and involved with some of the discussions about how this could be prevented and dealt with again I would like to add my 2p worth... I may have been fed (and swallowed) many a duff/party line when I was there but I know enough about the situation to select what I think relevent:

The guys that were captured were an RN/RM training team who's primary job was to teach the Iraqi's to partol the border (the Shatt Al Arab river) themselves a notorious smuggling zone for contraband/ immigrants and terrorists. At the time of the incident they were recce'ing some possible border crossing points. The Iranians pitched up in vessels and 'forced the RN/RM party to the Iranian bank. From here they were captured and taken away.

The border itself is supposed to lie at the deepwater channel of the river, however this is disputed by Iran who claim that the whole river is thiers. As far as GPS works, the RM tend to work in UTM. That part of Iraq(/Iran??) is on the border of 2 UTM zones and provides much confusion - however GPS was not the parties primary means of navigation at the time - although it obviously may have been used as a 'confidence check'. Map coverage of that part if Iraq is not particularly clear.

The weapons that the guys were shown with were those taken from an American patrol some 15 months ago. As to why the guys did not try to fight out of the situation - the rules of engagement would actually prevent you. Any sort of cross-border fire would be considered an act of war against a country that we are not supposed to be at war with. Subsequent recces and plans to re-navigate the river have looked at the possibility of top-covering any naval patrol with chinnok or puma. In thier current roles the weapons on board the ac are for self-defence only again - any cross border fire to defend boats on the river would at best be marginally within current RoE and at worst an act of war.

When approaching the border myself I often witnessed active SA 6 and 8 systems as well as fighters (unknown) latest int certainly believes that the defence of Iran is significant.

The kit lost included 2 x RIBs, GPS and NVGs. The cost in Chinook, Puma and Lynx flying hours since the incident is at least £30,000

Just some facts that will hopefully add a little clarity to the discussion.

[Navaleye]

Thank you Lafyar Cokov. Very interesting.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

It has been suggested that much of the trouble in Iraq is caused by people acting on behalf of Iran. Iran resents the US presence in the Middle East as it desires to be in a position to dominate the reason.

Three possible scenarios....

a) Iran invades Bahrain.
b) Iranian forces cross the Strait of Hormuz to capture the Musandam Peninsula.
c) The Strait gets closed to UK/US/Western traffic.

What would happen? What sort of forces would be needed to deal with it?

[OFBSLF]

What would happen?The US would respond militarily. Though we probably don't have enough troops to do so without stripping the cupboard bare (if it hasn't been already...)

[ORAC]

Iran would become an American protectorate pending free elections - welocmed by the overwheliming younger population who would be incredulously outraged at the stupidlity of their aging theocracy......