Saudia plane catches fire

[mutt]

Saudia plane catches fire
By Abdul Rahman Almotawa & Wajdi Sindy (Arab News)

RIYADH, 2 August — A Saudi Arabian Airlines Airbus-300 flying from Madinah with 247 passengers and 12 crew member aboard caught fire just before landing at the King Abdul Aziz International Airport in Jeddah on Monday.

Six passengers on SV1535 suffered minor injuries during emergency evacuation, an airline official said.

The crew and airport security acted swiftly to evacuate passengers of the aircraft immediately after landing at Jeddah. Describing the accident as minor, Saudia’s Director General Dr. Khaled ibn Bakr said the passengers were injured while jumping out of the aircraft using emergency ramp.

An official airline statement said the right engine of the aircraft caught fire just before landing at Jeddah at around 11.30 p.m. Passengers said they had heard a crackling sound few minutes before landing.

Airline sources said the flight scheduled at 7.00 p.m. took off from Madinah three hours late due to mechanical errors. Saudia has 11 Airbus aircraft in a fleet of 126.

[rsoman]

Well, atleast it is an improvement when you
take into account how bad the previous major
fire incident on Saudia was. I am talking of the Saudia Tristar Fire at Riyadh in 1980 where the evacuation was NON EXISTENT and it took more than 20 minutes for the doors to be opened after touch down!

[mach 84]

fire in the air or water on the ground, that's the worst things that can happen to you!!

[ 03 August 2001: Message edited by: mach 84 ]

[777AV8R]

I hate to say it, and I hope it isn't a precursor, but its precisely why many of us have left there. Unfortunately there will be tougher times ahead.

[New Bloke]

The worst bit about the TriStar Accident at Riyadh old Airport was the way they left the hulk sitting next to the runway as a constant reminder.

It used to give me the willies seeing the burnt-out remains so close to an active runway.

Is the Old riyadh Airport still being used as a Military base? I remember many a night at the Sahari Hotel oposite.

[The Guvnor]

If you read the CVR of the Riyadh incident, you'll see that they couldn't shut down the #2 engine - which of course meant that the aircraft was pressurised and the doors couldn't open.

The pax panicked and invaded the flight deck - as far as I recall something like 30 bodies were found in there.

Nasty!

[newswatcher]

Guv,

I have not heard the CVR, but according to reports, although the number 2 throttle was "stuck", this engine had been shut down before the landing at Riyadh. There is a report on this by Andrew Ayres at
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/indepth/ayers/163.shtml
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/images/galleries/saudi163/1.jpg

[The Guvnor]

Here's the CVR transcript ... makes for chilling reading, as these things always do.
http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/cvr_sv163.shtml

And yes, you're right ... looks like they shut #2 down at the last minute.

Interesting photo, btw ... I see that SV was as PR minded as always! :rolleyes:

[exeng]

<you'll see that they couldn't shut down the #2 engine - which of course meant that the aircraft was pressurised and the doors couldn't open.>

Perhaps the outflow valves could have been opened in 'manual' when on the ground, then the A/C would have de-pressurised regardless of the number of engines running.


Regards
Exeng

[777AV8R]

Yes, the airport is being used for military and VIP purposes. During recurrent training it was always fair ball to talk about every other airlines' short comings and their accidents, but one never ever dared bring up this one. BTW, the FD crew were not alive to do anything about outflow valves.

[Strength-5]

We handled that Saudi case as part of HR management / CRM course .....
There could not have been a better example of how CRM failed ...
The captain denied anything was wrong till right at the last minute ...he in fact whistled his way through most of the tradegy ..
The first officer was a youngster that was only on board , literally because he spoke english well ...very very limited experience
The Eng was later found to be dyslexic ...he even paid for his own training because no one else would bother hiring him/training him ...
When the first bells, then stopped , then went off went off again to signal a fire in the cargo hold ..the captain ask the Eng for the check list ..last mentioned looked then announced there was'nt any....but when the Eng lleft the cockpit on the request of the captain to go aft to check personally what the hell was potting ...the captain picked up the file and found the check list needed ...he then muttered how stupid the Eng was ...and then instead of following the check list he closed it and replaced the file in it's place ....
The cabin crew came several times to teel the captain that the passengers are panicking about the smoke billowing through the floor boards ..he continued to whistle and then finally made the decision to divert ...ATC was ill informed about the seriousness of the matter at first and this subsequently led to the FS not being fully prepared ..not that that would have changed the outcome ...
They landed and instead of applying max bvraking and stopping the machine and evacuating ASAP ...they rolled right through to the end .....much to dismay/suprise of the emergency services in attendance ..who then had to give chase ...no final app / approach checks were done ...or were not done properly ..no proper briefing from the captain ..hence they forgot to de-pressurise the cabin ...so the the fire services stood by helplessly watching the people geeting incinerated inside ...
The mind boggles !!!!
As I say an excellent CRM case study...even more so if you get to watch the "make shift" reconstruction video ...
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: :eek:

[New Bloke]

That photo is not how I remember it looking. I don't remember holes in the roof or the paint on it. Either my memory is playing tricks (quite possible as it was in 1982-3 I was there) or there were two burned out hulks at the Old Airport.

Nearly twenty years ago but I was sure it was just a complete plane but rust coloured.

The one I remember was on the left about half/two thirds of the way down the northerlyish runway.

[mutt]

777AV8R Hi there mate. Did you really think that they would discuss this in CRM?? That would be almost as bad as having the FA’s join the cockpit crew in the same CRM class or even the swimming pool…… :)

Guv/Newswatcher thanks for the links, but Guv can you check your link, it doesn’t appear to be working.

Strength-5, hate to nit-pick, but the Captain most certainly wasn't whistling, in his religion doing so would be a way of summoning a genie or devil. I think that you will find that he was praying. Was your CRM class based on the World In Action video?

It is extremely distressing to observe the Captains actions and the actions of the Captain on the Delhi flight which was involved in an midair collision. Our ultimate faith may be in the hands of God, but I for one would like to avoid that meeting for as long as possible.


Mutt.

[The Guvnor]

Mutt - Just tried the link and it definitely works. Of course, if you're back in Saudi, it might be being censored!! :D :D :D

You're right - the captain was singing in Arabic on two occasions; and rather more interestingly, at 18:35:57 just before touchdown he says "Tell them not to evacuate".

Yikes! :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

[New Bloke]

Two rumours doing the rounds in Saudi in the early 80s.

1 The fire was started in the cabin by someone trying to make a cup of tea on a spirit burner.

2 The Aircraft was put into the hold because the Kings' Aircraft was about to take-off and he couldn't be delayed.

Obviously just rumours

[The Guvnor]

When I was at LMSC a few weeks back, one of the people I met was one of the people that had been involved with the investigation - he said that it definitely started in the aft cargo hold, but thanks to the fire department raking out all the bags etc they were never able to pinpoint the precise source of ignition.

[newswatcher]

New bloke, I think you will find the "spirt stove" was more likely to be the cause of the PIA 707 incident over Taif, the previous year.

[kunal123]

CRM does not exist in Saudia, I have heard stories of crew coming out of the flt deck to do NAMAZ,this does not mean same as crew rest time.This is praying in the ailse of the a/c.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :p

[mutt]

MIG29MK
I presume that you have extensive cockpit experience on SV flights to have come up with a couple of statements like that?

Guv
That website doesnt like me.....

Just for information, the A300 Captain was an expat! One old lady died following the evacuation from an apparent heart attack.

Mutt http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/guin.gif

[Dagger Dirk]

One of the first Kapton Victims: SV163

BBC Documentary "Die by Wire" (http://www.iasa.com.au/panorama.html#SV163)

[Propellor]

For an airline that is proud of its training (average 9 months to bring a rated skipper on line), Saudia displays rather poor standards, as their records indicate. Look at their incidents, and you know that the training is a farce. :p

[sudzinsaudi]

I don't think we need to be too hard on Saudia. They don't suffer from drunks or air-rage onboard their flights originating from Kingdom. The new non-smoking flights are excellent until the cabin crew sneek off for a cigarette in the toilets! (Smoke alarms disabled - never!!) One of the best things though on international legs you generally have the majority of the aircraft to yourself.

[The Guvnor]

DaggerDirk - that was what I thought as well, (I've long had a keen interest in Kapton matters) which was why I brought up the Saudia fire.

LMSC said no, it wasn't Kapton - it was something in the luggage. Pull the other one, I said - bearing in mind that was what SAA and Boeing said about the Helderberg which is now 90% certain to have been Kapton. Nope, really, was the response and they showed the detailed investigation report including photos.

In the case of wire arc tracking, the temperature is extremely high (10,000 deg C) that it has the same effect as a thermite lance. In other words, extreme concentrated energy.

In the case of the Saudia L1011, that wasn't the case - there was a fairly sizeable hole burnt in the cabin floor, and from the damage to bags, it certainly looked as if it had originated in the baggage rather than above, where the wiring bundles are located. Of course, the wiring (along with the floor or the aircraft and as you can see from the photo much of the upper fuselage) was melted in the fire.

As I said previously, the fire department's raking out of the baggage holds meant that precisely identifying the ignitor was not possible. The LMSC guy thought that it was quite probably something as basic as a box of matches - the old 'ignite-anywhere' Swan Vesta type.

I have, however, copied the Panorama transcript and forwarded it on the LMSC - we'll see what they have to say!

[rightstuff]

I was actually working in Jeddah in the maintenance hgr during the incident involving HK.The ironic thing about the whole thing was a week previously the same acft was in the hgr for a C check when a fire broke out in the stores area resulting in the whole place being evacuated.The acft was dragged out without even bothering to move the stands that were around it,luckily no damage was sustained for what it was worth.
After the accident in Rhyadh we were all warned that anyone caught discussing the possible cause would be arrested and immediately deported.

[rightstuff]

One of the more popular opionions regarding the cause of the fire was a pin prick hole in the hyd lines in the aft bulk cargo,which caused a finely atomised spray onto electrical connections which were located in the same area.

[411A]

propellor---
<....their training is a farce.>

And, you would of course have worked for SV?

I certainly did, for 10 years, all on the L10. The training was most certainly not a farce and indeed was quite demanding.

Where, prey tell, do you get your infinate wisdom?

[777AV8R]

411, you are correct. Those stars that you wear on your shoulders and the ones above the jacket braid, are NOT gifts. I have never worked so hard to get through a course in my life. Everything else said, the training is tough. Try passing the oral exams. The line training is no snap. Its just too bad that the rest of the structure doesn't support it. The majority of the F/Os are excellent pilots. I may not have a lot to say that is good about them, but the flight training was demanding.

[Propellor]

411A.
Maybe I hurt your sentiments, but I do stand by my conviction. I am full of praise for some of my former colleagues there, but the less said about the training the better.

SV bases the training and checking extensively on memorization of information that is easily accessible, and less on referencing and logic. This policy, of laying emphasis on learning by heart, has been discarded by almost all other organisations and for good reasons, too. (I admit to little knowledge of astronaut training by NASA).

Committing to memory gives the operator the confidence of ‘know-all’, which then leads to complacency.

Besides it also makes life in the training system more difficult for those with a scientific bent of mind: those who do not remember items in the book as they are indexed, but with an overall view and with a thorough understanding of the contents and their essence. On the other hand, it promotes those with a photographic memory, mistaking it for superior airmanship qualities.

You are confusing ‘demanding’ and strenuous training as good quality training. Then, like 777AV8R wrote about the tough Oral Exams. A day’s oral exam on a subject like meteorology! Come on, grow up – is that exam a good thing? Conducted by a one-man board; and the examiner questioning the pilot straight out of an open book?

Mind you, all the exams, especially the orals, may not be above board.
Take the failures: three failures in the full career span, and the pilot is out of the company! These include the oral exams as well.

Even if the pilot is an old hand with the company, he is treated like a second officer or even worse, when he converts to the next airplane. The conversion lasts for about 9 months again, the third failure in his career hangs over his head, and it is vengeance time from his former First Officers, who would have become training Captains on the next fleet by then.

The flying standards are not so demanding. Rather, the flying is in one of the best aviation climates anywhere. Rare thunderstorms, long runways, and a good ATC and navigation network. Just the heat is stifling for a few months. The routes, especially out of the kingdom, are good, too.

The silver lining is that after the pilot has been dragged over the coals, in training, he is practically scot-free.
While I admit that this topic, on the recent in-flight fire, is not the appropriate forum for the discussion on the training in SV, I couldn’t help posting a reply. I would refrain from any further discussion on this topic here.

BTW, 411A, re.“Where, prey tell, do you get your infinate wisdom?”, I hate being referred to as ‘Prey’, and especially by one who makes two errors in one sentence!
Rgds.

[mutt]

Just to bring this back to the topic......

AFAIK, the aircraft had a fire warning in flight, the engine was shut down and the light extingushed. The fire warning came back on after landing, the crew were unable to contact the surrounding fire department officials and therefore ordered an evacuation.

Now I look forward to the continuing discussion on training standards......

Mutt

:D

[411A]

mutt---
Ah yes, training standards, my forte.
SV in 1986, had an engine-rundown and torching incident in Cairo on a TriStar. The Captain carried out the required drill but mentioned later that the IFS (on her own) decided that an evac was required while taxiing. This never happened as she broke her fingernail on the evac switch (thanks to GOOD safety wire).
Question: what sort of procedures are these guys/gals given now?

propellor--
Did you, by any chance, fail your course?
Many did, and then had NOTHING good to say about it afterwords.

[Propellor]

411A.
No, I did not fail the training.
BTW, 1080 postings in 16 months!
Don't you have any other thing to do?
Unless you are retired, and refuse to "hang your gloves".
All of us have to face the predicament one day, and I am sure almost all will exit gracefully.
Get the hint?

[411A]

propellor---
No, not retired and, in the process of a new start-up airline. I find PPRuNe both entertaining and enlightening. Some really bright folks here.

[mutt]

I think that its Slasher who maintains that the key to a good discussion is to attack the argument and not the arguer. Both of you could learn from this rule.


Mutt.
:mad:

[Propellor]

Mutt.Thanks Get the message, and sorry for the interlude.
411A. Nothing personal. Enjoy yourself.
Regds.

[sunwind]

Good day ladies and gentlemen,

This is my first contribution in Pprune and would like to greet everyone and thank our host.

Having just left the “Magic Kingdom” for greener pastures I would like to mention that the SV training in my opinion is definitely not the best of the world. However, I’d like to add that after 9 months of terror and truly stressful training, any pilot that survives it is definitely above average and I have nothing but praise for the majority of my colleagues. As an expat with experience in 3 mayor airlines I must also say that the SV first officers are the most competent I’ve ever flown with. Unfortunately, SV has a major problem with their maintenance. The mechanics are people with good skills but cost cutting by management (no spares, no new training) leads to complacency (is it an MEL? Just write it in the logbook… ;). I have never experienced so many technical problems and in flight emergencies as in the last few years of the Tri-Star before being replaced by the 777 (a third of the 23 SV 777s are normally grounded to provide spares for the other aircraft).