Sad Student

[kabz]

Well, I've got to about 23 hours and I am still crap at landings. All the other stuff at this stage for PPL is fine, but I can't get signed off for solo until I can land better. Trouble is, it's got so disheartening that the rest of my flying is starting to come apart. Any suggestions ? I really really want to learn to fly, but it's getting to the point where I am starting to dread it, as I don't know what's going to be crap next...

[Whirlybird]

hi kabz,

Just read your reply to my flying training disaster saga on the other thread :) I know exactly how you feel, as you'll have gathered. Don't despair, don't give up, though taking a short break and doing something else to get things in perspective might help - I didn't do that, and I probably should have done. Above all though, find an instructor you get on well with. This may mean changing instructors, or changing schools, but if you feel as you do, the chances are the one you've got is no good for you, however good he or she may be for others. If that person happens to be the senior instructor, then change schools.

It might also help to look back closely at what went wrong initially, and when things started going pearshaped. Often you can have missed that because there was so much to do and so many things going on. I'd completely forgotten about the incident I mentioned on the other thread, until I did this. When I did I got mad and wanted to kill that crap instructor who'd been criticising when it was least appropriate - but almost miraculously I could manage to land again. Don't understand it, but I guess that's how those kind of blocks work, sometimes anyway. Also, don't get obsessed with hours, or compare yourself with others. Once you've got a licence, you're a pilot, and no-one will ask you if it took you 40 hours or 200 to get there. Eventually you'll even stop caring yourself - although that took me a while.

I don't claim to be an expert, but if you want to e-mail me about any of this, feel free.

Incidentally, you and I are far from unique. This sort of thing happens in flying training often, far too often. I've been told we're unusual in sticking it out and not giving up, that's all. So hang in there!

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[ScottishBurd]

KEEP AT IT!!I was just like you-Landings just seemed to go tits whatever i did.Had more bounces,crap flares & go arounds than I could ever count.But one day it IS going to work out & when it does,it'll stay with you!It's very easy not to study when you feel so low on confidence,but now is the time!Get the books out & go for it-knowledge itself is a great confidence builder.Have you talked to your instructor about it ?If (s)he isn't supportive then get rid!oh,and at 23 hours you're about the same as most people I know of.You're doing fine.Go get it!!

[AMS]

Hi there,

I know exactly how you feel mate. I was fine to go solo quite early..although when I went solo..or as I went solo..the winds picked up..this made me sightly nervous but then I had traffic to deal with..1 go around and then 1 touch and go all fine..the final full stop..all my nervousness and everything came together..as I came into land I must have had my toe slightly touching the brake!! I touched down with a greaser and off I went..a straight skid!!

My confidence was thrown back..I got back on the horse much later than I should have but I did get that confidence back..then I ran out of time and had to stop..ALL I KNOW IS THAT THINGS HAPPEN..KEEP AT IT AS I AM..Landings will come ..Is not the hours but, your safety is imperative!

Dont worry about the hours..keep on until you are safe.

I am going to go into it again very soon..and by then I shall have got a much positive mental atitude.

Keep at it!!

AMS

[Honest Frank]

Any pilot who says they had no problems at any stage of their training be it PPL or 747 conversions - then they are talking *****!!

head up and keep at it.

[kabz]

Thanks, you guys are great. I guess the rot set in pretty early on about lesson three with some crosswind landings, but no knowledge really about using the rudder. Fairly predicatable crabbed in results. Guess my instructor wanted to see if I could 'naturally' use the rudder. This scared the living cr*p out of me, and landing the plane has been pretty scarey ever since. Usually about 1 in 4 landings is diabolical, 2 are passable, 1 is decent. This is pretty much down to lack of confidence/nervousnous/shaking like a leaf etc. 100' up I'm ok. Maneuvres usually are pretty good.
Well, I may take a little break, but I'll keep at it medium term. I can't say enough thanks to you guys. THANKS!!

[aristotle]

Kabz,

If you could give some more specific details of what your problems are (i.e: really hard landings, bounces, off centerline etc), what kind of aircraft you are flying, and what you see or are told is the solution perhaps I can give you some advice and a few tips.

[kabz]

Aristotle, thanks but it's more of a confidence thing I think. I can pretty much conjure up any type of bad landing. But when they're good, they're ok !!! I **will** keep at it. Thanks. K (USA) ABZ (Scotty).

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

It took me yonks to go solo and I felt like a real dunce, and that all the instructors and other students were laughing at me. They probably were! In the end I went up with a different instructor who suggested I try sitting on a cusion.
It's amazing what a difference it makes when you can see outside.
Other tips: Focus in the middle of the windscreen in the flare and use periferal vision to judge height and avoid "ground rush"
Don't be in a hurry to "slam" the aeroplane into the ground
and remember the instructor isn't going to let you bend the plane while (s)he is on board!

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

oops!

[This message has been edited by Charlie Foxtrot India (edited 31 March 2001).]

[eyeinthesky]

Two comments really, which your instructor might already have made:

1) Good approaches lead to good landings. If you're not stable in the approach by 400 ft then you're going to be struggling to make a good landing. By stable I mean on the centreline with any necessary crab angle to correct for crosswind, flaps at the landing setting, speed trimmed for the approach and making only minor adjustments to power to maintain the glideslope as the wind changes. If you're still messing about at 200 ft while the speed drops through 60kts and the runway is sliding off to one side, you might as well start the go-around then. Many airlines have a rule that if an approach is not stable by 500 ft (I think that's the right level) then they must go around. If it's good enough for them then it should be good enough for you.

2) Beware of ground rush. You mention you are OK at 100 ft then it all goes to pieces. Just remember that if you have flown an approach from 1000 ft reasonably well to 100 ft using the techniques you have been taught then why should those techniques not work for the last 100 ft? The ground rushing at you tends to throw most people because it suddenly dawns on them that the soft medium is suddenly about to meet the hard one. They tend to forget all about maintaining the crab angle and controlling the flare.

It seems to me you've now got a bit of a complex that you can't land the aircraft. You need to get this out of your head and relax. Have you tried going for very low approaches and go-arounds (5-10 feet) and flying along the runway without actually touching down? This should get you used to the roundout and flare and correcting for crosswind without worring about a boneshaking touchdown.

Just a few ideas. Keep at it, you will get it cracked. I bet your instructor has made a dodgy landing with you on board. It happens to all of us sometimes! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[Yogi-Bear]

kabz,
I inherited a simmilar student. Good landings were an exception. In the flare, I said, "Look up at the end of the runway". He did and it all came right. Found that he had been trying to land it by looking out of the lh side window, down at the ground just in front of the leading edge. Never been told. Perhaps you simply have a problem like this that needs identifying? X-wind landings need to be taught. Landings should be just as much a controlled maneuver as any other aspect of flight. Try what eyeinthesky suggests. It'll teach you control and confidence at the flare. Best of (luck) certainty!

------------------
Yabbadabaadoo. It's OK Boo-Boo.

[This message has been edited by Yogi-Bear (edited 31 March 2001).]

[BEagle]

A couple of things you could try:

1. Roll out of the final turn, then lower full flap and trim to the approach speed. DON'T be tempted to add anything extra!

2. THEN aim at a reference point on the runway touchdown zone and just KEEP the reference point FIXED in the windscreen; check the IAS and adjust it with small, precise changes of power alone to correct any errors. This is called the 'point-and-power' technique.

3. As the world starts to come up around you at the flare, look at the far end of the runway, close the throttle FULLY and just squeeze the rudder to align the aircraft with the runway immediately before touchdown.

Hope that this will help you!!

[Noggin]

Kabz,

As Beagle says look at the end of the runway when landing, not the point you intend to land. On the approach you focus on the landing point, as you cross the threshold move your eyes to the far end of the runway or beyond. That way you can see the whole runway. Your periferal vision is more sensitive than you central vision and will help you to judge the flare. As the runway starts to rush towards you, close the throttle and hold off, keep those eyes on the far end, keep straight with rudder, wings level with aileron, and progesively move the elevator aft. Do not try to put the aeroplane on the ground, it will land itself, when its ready.

Remember, Mr Piper or Mr Cesna designed the thing to fly, it will do the job far better than you ever will, so just tell it what to do and let get on with it.

[kabz]

Thanks. I think that transitioning to looking at the end of the runway in the flare did definitely help. Also, flying a bit slower on approach helped. Reducing power during the flare, rather than coming across the threshold also helped a bit. Learning to lead with the rudder and counter with aileron when in a crosswind also helped. Transitioning gently to level flight without ballooning, then holding the nose up as long as possible also helped.


All the above describes me at my best. My last landing was easily as good as any I've seen. The tryes didn't so much as chirp on touchdown. That's the exception. I know I can land in crosswinds also. This is a confidence thing, not a flying ability thing.


However, that last flying hour, I just didn't want to be there. I know that if I can just string a couple of decent lessons together, I will have the chief instructor left seat again to check me out for solo, and I will be wetting myself, and it will go tits up again. It will go tits up, because I will be too scared to make the appropriate corrective control inputs. I would probably be ok on a dead calm day, but if there is any wind, I will be so worried about the other guy taking the airplane from me that I am essentially paralysed. It's just wretched. I know this post sounds really self pitying and whiny, but it all fell apart last lesson and I can hardly bear to inflict this pain on my instructor (who just had a student solo and break the gear off) let alone myself.

[kabz]

I did an intro glider flight today. I figure that it might help, just to start again and verify that I can still learn and be taught, and be confident in my ability. Plus!! The instructor was behind me, so I can't see his hands hovering over the stick ready to take over. That may help ! ;-)

Anyways, it was fun fun fun. After the takeoff, I flew the tow from 1000 up to 3000 fine without help, with JL taking over for the release. Judging by his comments, I did well, even for a power pilot, who often want to overcontrol the aircraft.

The stick was really heavy and even flying gently, keeping behind the tow plane was quite physical. Rudder was light though. Reaction to the controls was slower than a 172, but it felt heavier, and gentle prods to get it lined up and keep it lined up were the order of the day. My right arm is still a bit sore just from the effort of it.

Once up there, after a little rest, I flew some turns, and flew a rather nice stall. Plenty of buffetting, then a dead straight break, with a gentle pull back up to the horizon. Lots of flying including dancing on the rudder was required to stay wings level and keep the yarn centred. Fun fun fun. The view over the area to the West of Houston was awesome.

After the stall, we loitered around the field and tried to pick up thermals. Seat of the pants and listening to the vario, and glancing at the vario occasionally. Lots more flying to stay at about 46 knots wing level and coordinated. We found a thermal and I got to try out my steep turns technique. I did well, holding a cordinated 45 degree bank in a thermal to gain about 500 feet. I was well pleased with this. JL was really pleased with this also, and I think he enjoyed being there as much as I did.

After that thermal, we tried for more, but didn't find anything good. And then it was time to head back to the field. We got a sniff of a thermal around the right turn to base and (as we were at 1000') we tried a left turn into it, but nothing doing. JL took it at this point and tested the speedbrakes, before turning base. At some point on base, the speedbrake came out again and we turned final sinking like a brick. At the intended point, JL flared still with speedbrakes for a perfect landing. As we slowed, he retracted the speedbrakes and we came gently to rest.

Well, I am going to fly gliders for a bit and try and build my confidence up. I enjoyed that, demonstrated that I am reasonably handy with a stick and rudder, and learned that these glider things *really* *really* need to be flown rather than just 'supervised'. The main thing is, I enjoyed it. The people seem really nice, and the view is great... Joy of Flying... Welcome back.

[Multp]

kabz
Good to see dome fun coming back into the flying for you: bravo!
Eyeinthesky and BEagle gave very wise words. May I add too,Patience. There you are, rounded out, power off,(just like a glider now!) floating along the runway, gently raising the nose as speed reduces to try and prevent the aircraft sinking. (Physics will win: it will!) Don't expect an immediate touchdown, or start to encourage this with unecessary control inputs at this stage. Maintain your references and you should find that you touch down on the mainwheels with the nose safely off the ground.
Sounds like that original advice of an instructor change will be worthwhile when you reckon you're ready for powered flying again. Understandable that he should be nervy after a previous bad experience, but poor instructional technique that he should have his hands hovering close to the controls and unnerving you in turn.
Incidentally, I went solo on my fourth session of circuits in the same day and I thought I'd never get it right. That first solo touchdown wasn't the best I'd flown that day, but it was safe. I guess my instructor realised that the polish and perfection (I'm still trying!) would come later. Since then, throughout a moderately successful avaiting career, I've never forgotten that, particularly when instructing my own students.
Wishing you good, safe and fun flying meanwhile.

[This message has been edited by Multp (edited 01 April 2001).]

[Cypher]

kabz...

KEEP AT IT!!!!

You've obviously got the knack for flying.. it's only a small part that's stuffing you up.. NERVES!!

I had the same problem.. caused me to fail a CPL nav check.. took me awhile to get my nerve back after that flight..
But it did come back.. just have to work on it.
You obivously have a good head on those shoulders, so keep calm and don't give up.

:)

[ohboy]

Just hang in there!!
It will all come together...

Good luck...

[kabz]

Thanks Folks. I had a tremendous time for my first proper lesson. We did three tows, various stalls and turns, and I watched, then followed, then performed the landings. I also managed to fly **much** less, with just really small movements and nice coordination. The people are in it for pleasure and good flying, and I think this comes out in the instruction. The main emphasis early on has been flying smoothly, with good contol of airspeed (asi covered!), and good coordination. I'm looking forward to the next lesson. Loved it!!

[DOC.400]

Go with a lot of the above, especially looking to the end of the runway. Try a longer downwind than usual so you have longer to set the plane up on finals (if that's poss where u fly?)
I had to be tricked into landing by my instructor -"Don't let the plane land," he said, so I tried and tried and tried, with power off, greased it every time!! Then I clicked,and laughed out loud. Works every time, pull back, pull back, pull back.

[Saab Dastard]

Kabz,

Good to hear that you are enjoying gliding - quiet, isn't it? The absence of engine doesn't half focus the mind on getting landings right ;-)

I'm sure that going solo in a glider will set you up really well when you go back to powered aircraft.

Enjoy and have fun, that's what it's all about.

[schooner]

I found landings pretty tough at first, I was fine with one instructor but with the other I just couldn`t nail it because he always seemed to be too keen to 'help out' on the landing. The solution was to stop flying with him completely. The next week I was off on my own :)
Another tip that has helped immeasurably was to not have a death-grip on the yoke. My instructor had me wiggle my fingers on the approach to relax the grip I had and my landings immediately improved because I wasn`t overcorrecting as much and making a hash of it
Good luck and don`t give up

cheers

[kabz]

Thanks Schooner. That might really help. I think *my* death grip was detected in the gliding lesson. Relaxing a lot really helped. I'm just starting to look forward to getting back in a power plane. Maybe in a couple of months. Not sure about whether to switch instructors or not though...

[RVR800]

...Death grip on the controls

This is a problem that we have all faced

Unfortunately the death grip scenario
normally occurs when we least need it

i.e. When accurate control inputs are required

Especially problematic during

1. a Flight test or
2. a Real Emergency

The question is how to get rid of it

..... Its practice ...

so that we convince ourselves that we CAN cope

You have proved you CAN cope its just
a matter of some re-programming

ie. Positive self-talk and practice

DON'T GIVE UP

[The Nr Fairy]

I saw a tip in a helicopter flying book ( The Art and Science of Flying Helicopters, by Shawn Coyle ) where he suggests holding the cyclic with the ring, middle finger and thumb and using the little and index fingers to hold a pencil in place over the other two fingers.

Because of the pain caused, the stude learns to relax. I'm not sure how it would work in fixed-wing, because of the differences, but it might be worth a look.

[SKYYACHT]

Many moons ago, my old instructor (Thanks Woody, Norfolk Gliding Club) suspected that I held the stick in a rather tight grip. His words to me I have taken everywhere (and on every aircraft type from C152 to A320)

"Hold the stick as if you were Princess Ann holding a tramps Di*k"

It works a treat.

Also your trimmer is your best friend....use it!

Tailwinds.

:)

[kabz]

Thanks folks.

I soloed yesterday, after 16 glider flights, with 2hours logged time in gliders.

Today I just basked a little, and flew a couple flights with an instructor. We did some spins and stuff. (Rudder unecessary to spin or recover a Blanik L-23, heheh)

[Saab Dastard]

Hey Kabz,

Well done! :)

No stopping you now.

SD

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Hoping and praying should never be confused with planning...

[willbav8r]

Ground effect exercises helped me no end with my finesse. Especially x wind.

Fly the machine down the centreline as best as possible with a bit of power, and try and stay in ground effect. Look at the end, not out the side.

You get used to the slushy controls, the closeness of the ground, and if there is a really longish runway, you can kiss the wheels a few times.

Made a lot of difference for me, as my flare was too high, and I was trying too much.

Gliding, now that looks like great fun. Must get to that one day.

Blue Skies

[Final 3 Greens]

kabz

You've had some good advice from the forum, so all I want to add is that I tended to land "firmly" and it was one of the worst aspects of my flying.

However, I stuck at it and am now over 200 hrs... better landings started to come at about 75 hrs and with them a sense of being in control, which in turn lead to good landings from about 80 hrs.

I don't always do greasers these days, but most are and all of them are exactly where I want them.

So stick at your flying and don't give up - you'll probably end up being brilliant at landing in a couple of years!

[kabz]

Thanks F3G, but a couple of hours in a glider pretty much got me to where I thought I should be. i.e. Soloed. I think the better visibility (big canopy) really helped.

There is some good web material on landings as well. I just flare at an estimated 2 secs above the ground. This can be practiced by looking at the perspective change on a book/desk etc, if you move your head and down.

From there, it is just a question of tweaking the stick back until you run out of travel, though I generally land before this point in the glider and just pull the airbrakes full out.

[Fly Better!]

Mate I fly with a guy who has 18,000 hours and he instructs and he still cant kick drift off!

Take a break for a few weeks or / and cahnge your instructor.

Good luck

[kabz]

Yup, that's about what I did !!

4 week break, to fly/solo a glider, and I'm back in an a/c with a whirly thing on the front this pm (citabria).

I'll see how it goes, but getting the glider rating than starting to concentrate on the power rating looks like the path I'll take.