Safety Alert PFA Rally Routings

[MBX35]

Please be aware that inbound routes JUNO and GOLD to Kemble on the sector Petersfield-Greenham Common passes over Lasham (EGHL) Concurrent with the Rally a Gliding competition will be happening with 100+ Gliders in the area at all levels from surface to top of convection . Please consider a reroute and/or keep a very good lookout. Lets keep it safe for everyone

[Chilli Monster]

In addition the UTAH routeing and published level crosses nicely with the ILS approach to 27 at Filton, in the vicinity of Junction 18 on the M4. This is probably going to be busy with instrument training traffic on the Friday, plus BAE/Airbus/Rolls Royce are having a Families day with flying demo's and displays on the Saturday.

[vintage ATCO]

Glad I'm at work . . . ;)

[Zlin526]

Safety Alert?? I should say so!!

Nice to see some planning has gone into this!! Most pilots will be too busy looking at their GPS to look for gliders, and if the Filton Air display is as busy as I think it will be with Fast jet traffic, then good luck chaps! As old Shaw Taylor used to sign off in Police 5, "Keep 'em peeled"

What a farce. Last year's routing took people almost over a parachute drop zone!

Have a nice day

:{

[WorkingHard]

Perhaps those responsible for route planning (published routes that is) should be encouraged to comment here. Offers anyone?

[Aussie Andy]

Guys, it's Class G... see and avoid applies! What else would you have them do, setup temporary controlled airspace for these events?

Andy

[stiknruda]

Sure it is going to be busy - sure Kemble is in close prox to other 'dromes, AIAA, etc - BUT as PIC you are responsible - having said that, it will be less busy than J6 of the M6 or J15 of the M1 and they are 2d.


I will fly to the rally from Cornwall, will drop into Gloucs (Staverton) for motion lotion and will be tracking my progress at 120kts on a half mill map - eyeballs out of the cockpit, thumb slowly inching up the map.


do plan your route carefuly( that is your responsibility notwithstanding the AIC) , do keep a very good look out, do arrive and join at Kemble in accordance with the AIC

do go and do have fun!

Stik

[Chilli Monster]

Guys, it's Class G... see and avoid applies!
I wonder if you'd take the same point of view if you were IFR and had just had your approach broken off and avoiding action given on the non-squawking PFA visitor who's just flown across your nose?

[Aussie Andy]

Hi CM,

So, what are you proposing to address this? Are you suggesting more controlled airspace?

The risks of IFR approach phases through Class G exist at all times. Radar approach assistance is provided, and on a day like this - as with the glider competitions but less so - the APP unit will advise the IFR arrival that there are multiple returns, level unknown. When in VMC in Class G the IFR arrival has to see and avoid or divert.

That is the system unless you put Class D airspace, or some other type, around the airfield. Is that what you propose? Is it really necessary? IMHO, we either accept and understand the risks of Class G, or we give it up.

Arguably it would be a bit better for the IFR arrival if we were to convert the Class G to Class E at low levels, as in much of France and the US for example. In the US this affords IFR from IFR separation when in IMC, but doesn't change the risk that you are concerned with here.

So, I recognise the risks but I am not clear what you are proposing to do about it? I guess you could cancel the rally, but that would seem a bit OTT...

Andy :ok:

[Girl Flyday]

Nicely put, AA. Class G is there for all to use - and nobody should think they have any more right to use it than anyone else.

And when it comes down to it, any incusions, infringements or general cock-ups that may occur are, as always, the responsibility of the individual pilot - and no-one else. How much nannying do those flying into the rally want or need?

BTW, I don't think CM has any objections to the Rally as a whole... just 'not in his backyard'! ;)

GF

[Orange Arm Waver]

And it's Grand Prix weekend so Silverstone/Turweston etc will be busy too...

[Dan Winterland]

I'm going sailing instead. Far safer!

[stiknruda]

Dan W,

I don't know, I recall rescuing tens of people after a junk sank on the Lantau side of Stonecutters Island 19 years ago this month!

A few months later had to search for a chap who'd fallen off the 3rd deck of the Silvermine Bay ferry, mid crossing, late at night. We found him!

Stik

[83 3708]

Ye Gods has someone really published 'routes' in Class G airspace that cut through an ILS or overfly a busy glider site??

As with all such events notification has to be given to AUS, AIC's published and possibly NOTAM's raised. Kemble themselves must have consulted with CAA SRG on the subject of air traffic services to be provided and safety measures required. Has no one in the CAA actually checked that what is being proposed is a good idea??

:confused:

[Chilli Monster]

Aussie A

I'm going to disagree with Girl Flyday and say NOT nicely put. All you're showing is a total ignorance of IFR operations in class 'G' and a complete disregard of other airspace users who have as much (if not more valid) reason to be in a particular piece of airspace.

For a start - Class 'G' is not "see and avoid", VFR is "see and avoid" - if you're going to make sweeping statements get your facts straight!

So - I see a primary return in front of my IFR arrival - he's elected to go Radar Advisory. I have to avoid it and if that means breaking off the approach then that's what happens. Likewise if the pilot gets a TCAS Resolution Advisory. Do you think it's fair on them in terms of fuel burn? Fair in terms of delays? Fair in terms of possible diversion? Put yourself on that aircraft as a passenger or a member of the crew.

And it's not just Filton. Bristol arrivals from the east leave CAS in the vicinity of Lyneham and track towards the 10 mile point of the approach. Now, although the PFA route says "max alt 2500'" you can't accept that as gospel. You're therefore in the same situation. Put yourself in that position

(I said that before - I notice you didn't seem to. Sticking your head in the sand were you?)

Yes - these things happen every day, but with a lot less volume of VFR traffic, and it's manageable. However, bearing in mind that Fairford will be NOTAM'd as active how many aircraft are going to be funnelled up this route. A bit of decent planning on the part of the organisers / DAP could have brought them in on a route a lot safer, but as the people who won't have to deal with it what do they worry about - b:mad:r all obviously :*

Kemble was, is, and always will be the worst place in the world for such an event because of where it is. The sooner it moves out of there the better!

[Aussie Andy]

Dear CM, if its an argument you want (shame really)...

total ignorance of IFR operations same to you with knobs on mate!

other airspace users who have as much (if not more valid) reason to be in a particular piece of airspace. So who gets to decide who has a more valid reason to be in a particular piece of airspace? In Class G, it 'aint you mate! Of course, the charts highlight primary approach paths in Class G (i.e. "<<<<<" symbol on the chart) and in some instances there are holds in class G too, e.g. Alkin near Biggin Hill: as good citizens we should avoid these as part of normal VFR airmanship. I would hope that my fellow VFR pilots do so too, of course.


Class 'G' is not "see and avoid", VFR is "see and avoid" Your semantic argument is fatuous and besides the point. I think you know what I mean... "Class G is uncontrolled and pilots are responsible for providing separation between flights, whatever flight rules they are following", at least according to the current edition GASIL on pp. 12 which I quote. Surely this is not news to most people?

if that means breaking off the approach then that's what happens Yes. And if this is a problem operationally, perhaps the airfield operator should lobby for more controlled airspace locally to provide more adequate protection. AOPA (sh/w)ould be consulted, and life would move on. Otherwise, it is what it says on the box: Class G.

Do you think it's fair ... Who said its fair? Are you suggesting it would be fairer for VFR pilots in Class G to go somewhere else? Where? Is it "fair" on my fuel burn or my time? Happily we don't have to worry about what is fair, we just have to fly within the rules and exercise good airmanship. For the avoidance of doubt, that should include (as above) avoiding approach and holding areas, or request an information service (if offered/available) from the APP provider in that vicinity to enable good neighbourly coordination. But you seem to hanker for a separate pice of sky when it hasn't been allocated? How is that "fair"?

Sticking your head in the sand were you? Que?

A bit of decent planning on the part of the organisers / DAP could have brought them in on a route a lot safer Maybe so - perhaps you could promulgate your proposed safer route? How have you coped druing previous events? Do you think it would be safer for no route to be suggested, I think I might agree with that. But your sweeping anti-VFR comments above are quite something else.

Anyway, don't worry: I won't be in your airspace that day!

Cheers,


Andy :ok:

[M609]

This is interesting reading.....

You chaps need to do something with your airspace system, it's sound to be all f***** up...... :sad:

The way you provide radar service in class G is (albeit needed it seems) very scary!

Looks like your only hope is that SES is forced onto the UK like the rest of europe......

[Chilli Monster]

But your sweeping anti-VFR comments above are quite something else. And what part of my post is that then? I can't see any. Where do I "Hanker after a separate piece of sky". I don't - you're seeing things that aren't there (probably magnified in the bottom of a Fosters glass for all I know ;) ) You'll notice that I said under normal circumstances the situation is manageable. Hardly anti-VFR, more a happy state of admitting both sides of the operation can work together. (Don't forget - I fly too).

However, this is not 'normal', and should have been thought of with a little bit of consultation (we only discovered the routes when the AIC was published - that's hardly sensible is it not?).

Airfield operators can't 'lobby' for CAS. It's all done on passenger numbers and involves a lengthy consultation process and is not granted lightly. Another hole in your knowledge base I'd say.

The difference between you and I is obviously I see things from both sides of the fence as well as the flight safety point of view. You only see yours - such vitriol doesn't exactly show you to be an expert on the matter (which you're not) so don't try and become one when you're not armed with all the knowledge and experience that others are.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Oooh! Come on AA and CM. I'll hold yer coats. ;)

SSD

[Fly Stimulator]

CM,

Good posts! They're fine examples of how arrogance, pointless aggression and ad-hominem attacks weaken an argument and derail what was threatening to be a useful thread.

As for the suggestion that someone has been at the booze, my money would not be on AA.

To return to the actual point here, you say that:

All you're showing is a total ignorance of IFR operations in class 'G' and a complete disregard of other airspace users who have as much (if not more valid) reason to be in a particular piece of airspace.

Ignoring the histrionics, the implication seems to be that IFR pilots, and the controllers dealing with them, assume that they have a degree of priority in practice that they do not actually have in law in Class G airspace, and expect VFR pilots to work to these same assumptions.

That doesn't seem to be particularly 'fair', or, more importantly, particularly safe.

[Chilli Monster]

Fly Stim

Check your PM's

[bar shaker]

Chilli

Sorry mate, but I'm with the others. If you are in class G and its VFR conditions, you should be looking out of the window.

If someone else is flying in the area, VFR, he has at least as much right to be there as you do. If he is looking out of the window and you are not, he has more right, in my book.

If someone wants to practise IFR approaches, I would suggest somewhere that is not in the vacinity of a huge VFR fly-in, especially one that will attract a lot of non radio aircraft.

[Aussie Andy]

CM, my friend: such vitriol doesn't exactly show you to be an expert on the matter Let he who casts the first stone be without sin..!

I think you made the mistake of squirting a bit of vitriol my way first, with expressions like "total ignorance".

On a point of order, milud, I don't claim "to be an expert on the matter"... that seems to be your personal hang-up, not mine!

I am just a regular, lowly, low-hours, know-nothing, deserve-nothing, but, sadly perhaps from your perspective, legally licensed VFR pilot exercising my rights in Class G in accordance with appropriate regulations, and objecting to any numpty (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty) who, like you, suggests that IFR flights or anyone else (other than the Queen, she's a special case, right?) has any greater right of access to the Open FIR than do I.

Your points regarding consultation during the planning for the event may be fair enough: but sadly these points have been somewhat drowned out and overshadowed by the mud-slinging you chose to initiate, mate. If you can't take it, don't sling it.

Now, shall we get back into our prams? This used to be such a civilised place... for a moment it seems to have started to deteriorate into the kind sh1t fight normally reserved for the
Dunnunda & Godzone (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=24) fora!

Night night all,



Andy :ok:

[Mike Cross]

Is it safe to come out yet?

This from AIS

NAVW: FROM 04/07/09 08:00 TO 04/07/11 17:00 H4806/04
E)AUS 04-07-0003/2432/DAPLC
PFA (POPULAR FLYING ASSOCIATION) RALLY KEMBLE. PILOTS ATTENDING ARE
REQUESTED TO ENSURE THAT THEY ARE FULLY BRIEFED ON NOTIFIED
ACTIVITIES AFFECTING THEIR FLIGHT BY VISITING THE AIS WEB SITE
(WWW.AIS.ORG.UK).
FOR EXAMPLE - MAJOR GLIDING COMP AT LASHAM, UP TO 200 GLIDERS AT
TIMES - GLIDERS CAN BE EXPECTED UP TO CLOUD BASE (ADJACENT TO GOLD
ROUTE), BRISTOL AIR DISPLAY. GLIDING AT
LITTLERISSINGTON/HULLAVINGTON. MAJOR HEL ACTIVITY WI 20 NM OF
SILVERSTONE.
ALSO AIR DISPLAYS. FROME AIR DISPLAY. CHARLBURY HOT AIR BALLOONS
(ADJACENT TO SWORD ROUTE). PARACHUTING DISPLAYS AT DOUGHTON,
TETBURY (NEAR KEMBLE), MICHELDEVER, BORDON, NEWBURY,
TUNBRIDGE WELLS, LASHENDEN/HEADCORN, BICESTER, WITNEY. KITES AT
BRIGHTON. THIS LIST IS NOT EXHAUSTIVE.
AIC 45/2004 (MAUVE 133) AND AIC 44/2004 (YELLOW 116) REFER.
F)SFC G)5000FT AMSL

Mike