Tristar in the hands of Russian owner.

[Was that for us?]

Anyone know anything about that Russian outfit in RSA that has bought a L10-11 ex GSO. I imagine Tristar freaks will be rolling their eyes at the very thought of Russians playing with sacred equipment. How they will fly it in RSA airspace with the new tighter policeing of foreign operators aircraft, remains a mystery to me. There is a very expensive AD due on the engines, like due last year August. That combined with Russian mechanics working on a western aircraft with out any training, surely wont be acceptable to the CAA?

[fesmokie]

Can't even imagine, cause our western mechanics with training couldnt even keep them running!!!!:rolleyes:

[411A]

The TriStar is a very complex systems aircraft, and is certainly not suited to 'hammer and tong' engineering.
Connie Kalitta found out, big time.
The Russians don't have a chance, IMO.

[Was that for us?]

Exactly my point! I dont like the idea of this aircraft flying in RSA airspace (or any other for that matter) while being maintained by un trained Russian mechanics. I dont believe its allowed to just strip out the aircraft willy nilly with out some sort of STC to cover that work. The removal of the forward galley is a structural mod. I wonder if it will occour to them to do a re- weight and re-calculated W&B. I would doubt it, if they are stupid enough to work with un qualified mechanics. The rumor is that they will be doing flights for the SANDF to DRC!

[Was that for us?]

The Liberian fiasco is far behind us now but Swaziland is rapidly taking its place. You pay your money and you get your aircrafts registration, CofA and Airworthiness certificates no matter the same aircraft is considered scrap. The AOC is issued for a further consideration and as we all know no person that isnt a national/resident of any country may hold an AOC. I do belive that one could get a registration for a space shuttle from the Swazi CAA it would just cost more if they spotted the difference between it and normal aircraft. The RSA CAA should send a firm message and ban these bargain basement aircraft and their pirate operators from our skys before there is a nasty incident.

[George Semel]

Look the Russians kept Mir going for a good 10 years longer then they should have. The russians are nuts and bolts kind of guys. Besides they are not stupid. As for the L-1011 well when its all said and done its an airplane. While I never flown an L-1011, I have ridden in one on several occasions. Besides how you define airworthness, may not be what the Russians determine to be Airworthy. I don't know who bought this airplane, but anybody who can afford to do so, are not as dumb as you would belive. He or they would have gotten the issues of training parts and mantaince all sorted out before the sale was even concluded.

[Deanw]

Besides how you define airworthness, may not be what the Russians determine to be Airworthy.

Amen to that!

Just take a look at the number of accidents involving Russian aircraft caused by technical issues vs the number involving western aircraft :suspect:

[Was that for us?]

If the tree branch (seen on Friday) shoved in the fan of an engine to prevent it from turning is any thing to go by I doubt the Owner knows any thing. Maybe the Russians thought the engine is the same as an IL-76 ie. when it turns on the ground it causes serious problems, and that is why U will allways see the IL-76 crew put the engine plugs in place on shut down. The company has no tooling and only Russian mechanics and as far as I know the L10-11 maint manuals have never been translated to Russian. These mechanics are ignorantly stripping the aircraft interior including the removal of the fwd galley with no regard to STC's required. Swazi CAA should be bought to book by the over seeing body RSA CAA for allowing this insanity.

[fesmokie]

God knows what they will do if they hear the fan blades rattle when the engine turns in the wind..:rolleyes:

[helldog]

Looks like we will have to watch out for falling Tristar bits from above.

A bit off topic. Was that for us?......Any news on the DC9 job for spanish speaking pilots? I sent my details to the e-mail you gave me, but no news at all. Also sent you a PM a few weeks ago. If you have any news that would be great. I guess they dont have time to reply to all apps. Maybe you could make a post letting all that made an app. know that the positions are filled or any news you might know.

Anyway cheers all.

[Was that for us?]

The CAA are keeping a close eye on the goings on and assured a member of the press "It wont be operating from South Africa"

[petesevenseven]

Was that for us, after reading your post regarding Russian Maintenance I think that you really have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!

I have alot of experience working around Russian Crews and when in comes to Maintenance every Crew I have seen have been extreemly proffesional incomparison with others!!!! By the way did you know that Aeroflot have been Operating both Airbus 310's and Boeing 777's for quite a while now do you think for one second their engineers have not been trained??? I think you need to get your facts straight mate before you go shooting off like you just have!!!!!

I'm sure that the engineers will recieve adequite trainning to deal with the aircraft that the operation intends to operate. I can tell you this much Russian Pilots put alot of faith in their engineers there is usually excellent communication between both where the engineer will properly brief the pilots of the aircraft of the exact condition of that aircraft on any given day. Agreed it is indeed a very different system of running things where by it's not just a signature in a techlog but ontop of which the pilots actually get a proper briefing on how the entire aircraft is operating prior to getting in and flying, I think that is better than some of our own practices don't you?????!!!!! Lets not forget inorder to do this they would need to be qualified on the aircraft!!!! And yes although in some cases language is a bit of a barrier there are always translators that do help out when in comes to reading manuals and going for courses, and then again there are now Russian Engineers that are pretty fluent in the English language now days!!!!

By the way just out of curiosity have the South Africans ever built a Space Station or with one of their OWN Rockets sent a man in to space, because I know that the Russians have sent a South African into space and brought him back in one piece I wonder how the russian maintenance was on that flight!!!!!?????


Was that for us??? Yes this is for you!!!! I rest my case you need to seriously think twice about what you say and get your facts right.

Pete

Edited for language. 4HP

[Was that for us?]

Oh my my! didums. I dont think you are from the same world as the one I have operated in for the past 15 years or so.
If these Russkies are so clever how come their aircraft crash so often? Bearing in mind thats aircraft they know well and have had training on for years one would assume. I am not talking about anything by the way I am "writing" it! A small difference but a difference none the less. Lets hope the Ruskkie mechanics dont make that mistake ie. not knowing the difference between talking and writing. Any way time will tell who is more correct.

[Atlanta-Driver]

As far as I have seen Russian aircraft flying around in Africa and Middle-East are "somewhat" lacking in the old maintenace, mainly due to cut-throat competition between the various Russian operators. However many of their pilots and tech-crews are very well trained and experienced in the type of aircraft they operate.
The above does not however exclude the fact that they have serious problems with some of the following:

- Lack of recurrency training on the type operated, some guys not seen Sim or an instructor since early -80's
- Lack of standardisation in operating procedures as well as maintenance procedures.
- Operating using out of date enroute charts and app-plates
- Lack of available spares and tools to correct problems
- Flying with aircraft in total shambles
- Serious problems with reading , writing and understanding English language especially when it comes to ATC and technical language.
These are just to name a few. Guess some of the points can be used to describe many third world carriers.

Regardless I can assure you PETESEVENSEVEN that a small Russian company operating aircraft as complex and demanding as L1011 in Africa just wont make it.
Russian mechanics with limited english (Ok they may speak excellent english) but no experience on the L1011.
Add to that the lack of spare parts (And prices for thosre spares available) on the market. They will either crash it or brake it in just no time.
We operated L1011 for quite a few years and know the problems involved in operating the aircraft type. We had engineers with years and years of experience on the type... There is a reason why the aircraft is no longer in our fleet.

So I guess dear Pete, that it is you that really do not have "No idea what you are talking about". ( Since you like to use that expression).

AD

[Deserted Rat]

What a prat Pete. :hmm:
So what if there are some "proffesional" Russians out there working on ex-Soviet aircraft. :confused:
These particular Russians appear to be doing illegal maintenance. Bad, but especially so on what is a very complex Western aircraft, on what maybe a shoestring budget. Doesn't bode very well. :(

[napoleon]

As predicted the Russian owners of 3D-AAB were unable to fool the Swazi CAA into issuing a CofA for their un airworthy Tristar and it has been de registered (9Q-CVD) and they are now fooling the DRC CAA for how long it remains to be seen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kennel Keeper]

"If these Russkies are so clever how come their aircraft crash so often?"

Maybe because they do sell cheaper aircraft in Africa and the African operators abuse them and neglect them. Fact is the Russkies build an airplane that still flies even after typical African and third world abuse. If a third world operator abuses a Boeing and it crashes is Boeing to blame? I saw an AN 32 repaired with shopwindow aluminum after a local pilot pulled the gear before liftoff and it still flew. When the nose gear collapsed Antonov was blamed. During the repair I was privelaged to work with a very professional Russian crew including a pilot who admitted that he had to work on the aircraft in the workshop as part of his pilot training.

The Russian Soyuz still flies after many years of use
( transporting yanks and their bits ) while the wonderful Space Shuttle remains grounded!!

Whose aircraft defend our forests from fire?

[petesevenseven]

Thank you Kennel Keeper for that!!!

I was beggining to think I was a right idiot there for a second!!!!

The fact of the matter is that its the operators that abuse the russian machines because they are built to last under extreeme conditions which they do very well, and because of this the operators take advantage of this and stretch things!!!!

Also we have to keep in mind that spares are now becoming pretty few and far between since the collapse of the Soviet Union. And I'm of the opinion that it's extreemly professional individuals that maintain these aircraft under great duress and manage to keep them flying in an Extreemly hard african environment with no spares!!!! That makes them pretty good I would say!!!!

We could Take Tanzania for example!!! If you look at the statistics there has been a Crash every month in this year all but one have been aircraft of Western Make including 3 PT-6 engine failures, and all are being maintained by western European trained Engineers, as far as I know!!!!

The fact that they cant get this TriStar registerd isn't the fault of the Russian Engineers is it!!!????? I would call that more of an administration problem!!!

But thats just me

Pete!!!!

[napoleon]

From reading the last two post I wonder if the "POSTERS" are for real. The aircraft was not given a CofA because it was not airworthy due to outstanding AD's on the engines which the owners and technicians chose not to embody!!! Nothing to do with admin all to do with crookery and poor understanding of western rules and regs.

[petesevenseven]

To Mr. Napoleon


Since when do the Technicians get a say in what management dictates???

That would be a first!!!!

Good on you mate!!!!!

Now we are talking of a really perfect world!!!!

Could I send in a CV PLEEEEEESE!!!

Language edited. 4HP


Pete!!!

[napoleon]

I welcome your CV the mind boggles to think what it would reveal!!!

[petesevenseven]

To the Bear!!!

"Well said PlonkerSevenSeven!
I suppose you as a pilot would do everything managment says, evem when it's obviously illegal?
"Yeah, I'll fly grossly overloaded, without a valid licence, in an un-registered airplane ... etc""

Listen pal I'm not saying that what has gone on is at all correct here!!!

And as far as ever operating an aircraft without a licence in an unregistered airplane goes!!! Don't know mate I've never done that!!! But what I'm saying is that it goes on around us all the time!!!! If you have never seen it then you are one of the blindest Plonker Bears that iv'e ever had the pleasure of wasting my time on!!!!!!

Now I don't know the exact details of the whole story here, and quite frankly I'm really not interested in them I've got better things to worry about!!!

What I am defending is Russian Engineers That is all NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS, I'd rather a Russian Engineer work on my aircraft than an African one thats for sure and that only comes with experience ask Eagle Air Uganda what difference a russian engineer did for their whole operation!!!!!

But that's just me!!!

So Nice wasting my time on you Plonker Bear Don't forget to shave!!!!!!

Remember the americans spent millions and millions of tax payers dollars developing a pen that could be used in space!! THE RUSSIANS USED A PENCIL!!!! Hence they are simply more practical and they had to be during communist years, its just plain and simple evolution, it doesn't mean that they are less educated, unlike some Plonker blind bears I know and had the pleasure of wasting my time on!!!!!

Peace out Blood!!!!

Pete

[goonaboy]

OLGA THIS WAY YOU GO THAT WAY.

[406pilot]

hey chill out guys....

was that 4 us? do not take pete 77 so seriously man,nobody does anyways...its just that he has been sharing the bed with a mad russian so often that he really cant seem to look past them...Frankly speaking i would rather walk then fly aeroflot.....as for the south african aviation....i quite think SAA is the best airline in this continent.....try and beat that p77???

no more 406pilot

ps:hey pete i do believe aviation and space is 2 different things,try to get it right b4 u launch yourself into an argument

[napoleon]

By the statement you made about Russian Engineers being prefered to African Engineers do I take it that by African you mean "Black" or do you include us white Africans in your racist remarks?

[petesevenseven]

Hey 406!!!

Habari Bwana. Quite frankly I'd rather fly a 406 because the way your'e going I hear your'e putting on tooooooo Much weight sitting on your Behind not your fault admitingly but rather the fault of your beloved SAA!!!!!!!

I'd rather fly for Aeroflot one thing is for sure they have better Equipment than ATC and BETTER MAINTENANCE let's not get the 2 confused (ATC and SAA although they are supposed to be training you)!!! I'd love to see ATC operate and Maintain B777's

And one thing is definately for sure they would NOT keep you hanging around for over a year to type rate you on a 737 have you actually got it on your licence yet???? Oh and one other point their Hosties are definately better looking!!!!

Suck on that one Fatso!!!!

Pete!!!!

[406pilot]

ok guys plonker77 has just blown a fuse or may be it must be the sound of those hydraulic operated wipers of the let in terferering with his brain waves....something like that or did the rebels have a go at you while you were there:{ ........cant stop laughing about those hydraulic operated wipers...dude someone was obviously over dozing on some cheap vodka designing those...ohhh damn

no more 406pilot

[Solid Rust Twotter]

406

They got the idea from a Dak. You should see the things hopping around when the diaphragm in the accumulator goes for a ball of :mad: and there's only the pump to keep pressure up directly including some pretty scary hydraulic shocks.

[406pilot]

aha so ur saying the idea came from an american plane....hmmm wow

so the legacy of the western design copycating is still very much alive...hey didnt the russians make a "concorde with canards"?????called concordski now that certainly went into the record books as one of the safest planes around dint it....pete 77???

no more 406pilot

[petesevenseven]

That's right!!! When you have nothing else to say we have to go to the good old Racisum thing!!!!

WHAT CRAP!!!!!!

It's not about Racisum it's about education guys plane and simple!!!!! And the Russian engineers have been educated pretty well and they do a good job with what they have in hand, and I might add from what I have experienced with them I have absolutely no complaints!!!!

Good one Mate!!! It's all about education, and they have simply been better educated and they do a good job!!!!


Goodluck guys I'm sorry I cant lower myself into one of your racisum issues I'll never win!!!!! However what I do know is that The russian Engineers that I have worked with in the past have been outstanding professionals!!!!!


Pete!!!!!

[126,7]

You guys obviously all know each other and there's a bit more being typed between the lines here than Russians and Africans........
Pulling the racism card is very far below the belt and totally immature.

Get a grip now children and act accordingly........my my my

[napoleon]

126.7 I dont know any one of the above Children for what its worth. The plonker made a racist remark and I suggest if he cant be civil he should be quiet at least!!! I'd like to introduce him to a few of my "Black" mechanics if he comes to Kinshasa!

[Atlanta-Driver]

Beats me how you doorknobs manage turn a discussion about L1011's and Russians into a Racisism issue.:mad:

[406pilot]

hi 126.7 you nailed it right i do have the dishonour of knowing pete77, but never did i realise he was such a thinker....

Russian engineers have been educated pretty well and they do a good job with what they have in hand, and I might add from what I have experienced with them I have absolutely no complaints!!!!

hey pete i hope your not calling your ex- an engineer???we are talking about real aircraft engineers here...like i said b4 get it right for once in your life pete


no more 406pilot

[petesevenseven]

Ok guy's,

I hope that this can truelly be my last reply because some of you guys have missed the point here.

So lets refresh the initial topic was " Tristar in the hands of Russian owner" by Was that for us?

and I'll just keep on quoting here "I imagine Tristar freaks will be rolling their eyes at the very thought of Russians playing with sacred equipment"

and another one by 411A
"The TriStar is a very complex systems aircraft, and is certainly not suited to 'hammer and tong' engineering."

Now I'd just like some of you guys to take a look at this link and let me know what you think!!!!

I think that if the Russians Can Maintain and Operate something a Complex as a B777 then I think they Can Maintain and Operate something as Complex as a Tristar.

Now having said that I don't know under what conditions these guys are operating under: But then again I just cant imagine someone investing in quite an expensive piece of equipment in comparison to Russian equipment and not looking after that investment.

Like I said before Russian Engineers are highly educated guys they had to be to try to keep up with the Yanks!!!! Their only problem is a language barrier which is slowly but surely being fixed!!!!

As Mr. 406 said they came up with the Concordskie which still was being used until very recently as a test bed for supersonic flight? Correct me if i'm wrong!!!!! So inorder to keep these things flying one would assume that there would be a fair amount of education and skill required rather than " Hammer and Tong" engineering!!!!!

Anyway guys Take a peek and let me know what you think!!!! I think the Paint Job is fantastic!!!!!!!

www.airliners.net/open.file/590323/M/


Happy Landings Guys


Pete

[helldog]

Awesome, this is great entertainment. I know the plonk and 406, and by the way 406 I know who goonaboy is. All good blokes. Some of you are out of control here man, whats going on? I cant see how this could have turned the way it has. You all need to chill the:mad: out. Pete get your fat butt over here and have a beer son. But let me have a game of squash first, as my fat butt wont fit in a 406 soon.

Anyway, for what its worth I think that the ruskies must be good gingerbeers. But as someone mentioned the companies that use their aircraft are dodgy get rich quick operations, and they dont give them much to work with. Does not mean they are bad engineers, but I dont know how they can clear a plane to fly in the state some of those aircraft are in.

Cheers

[petesevenseven]

helldog,

I completely agree with what you are saying!!!! You are definately on for a beer!!!Give me a buzzz!!

Another good point mate you need to keep your ass slim otherwise you will also end up a No More 406 pilot because you wont be able to fit into your seat at all!!!!!!

Shawmow MoFo!!!!!

Pete!!!!

[406pilot]

well pete77 atleast there is paycheck coming my way every month which should be enough to keep those garlic naan breads flowing for some time but geez if somebody doesnt pull the plug on plonker he might have a mouth run-away....same as prop run away....

hey helldog send me a pm on goona pls/....

no more 406pilot

[ShenziRubani]

Great great litterature lads. Pete7-7, I am sure that you didn't really mean it the way it was interpreted, but it's true that ur comment sounded like...eeer "I trust the russian, not the blacks, look at TZ, all planes falling because black maintenance". I am sure that this was not what you wanted to say.
The problem with the PT6s in Arusha, is maybe not a maintenance issue (and I surely don't want to think this in the cases of the 406, MUA and Helldog's machine. I am certain that their operators have the most reliable maintenance providers in Dar and at Wilson) but maybe something else. If you've read some of the other thread here, you'd noticed that a few PT6 have been failing, with the same symptoms, in the US, Australia and South America too. :rolleyes: A plane down every month in TZ? Same here in the U.S. Dude!! Way more than one.

I have been around the area for 36 years, and I have seen more Russian built planes, maintained by Russian crews, having maintenance issues than other. I do not thing that it has to do with the manufacture of the planes at all, I believe that those are built rough in order to resist the tough condition of the bush in the ex-USSR. But most of the planes have been going through countless operators before falling in the hands of fly-by-night operations in Africa, especially in poorer countries or countries at war. The mechanics who come to work on our continent are often guys who couldn't get a job at home and were desperate (like most of the foreign pilots, :D ) and often will not be the best (hence they don't work with used-to-be-gigantic Aeroflot. A lot of them had to leave families behind and spend a lot of time getting pissed on the vodka (like most of us pilots :D ).
I am not trying to say that this is the case for all Russian mechanics and I want to believe that yours were better than any European, American, Australian or Euro-American trained locals, but I have observed that most of them fell in the category that I've described.

I don't even want to get on the spare parts, maintenance issues, with these planes, maintain by washed-out russian mechs or not, if an operator cannot afford a decent salary for its mechs and pilots, I don't see him spending cash in spares.

They already have problems with aircrafts that they have been trained on, and on which they can improvise, let alone working on a Tristar.

The situation with Aeroflot's aircraft on their major internal and international routes is different. They have the creme on this market. Now go check what's happening with the bush lines and the bush planes in the country, it is another story. Nothing to do with abilities or not, just the money. If there's no money, there's no maintenance.:ok: :ok:

[Atlanta-Driver]

Seems that Pete does not like to accept facts but holds on to his believes. Just to refresh the old memory:

"As far as I have seen Russian aircraft flying around in Africa and Middle-East are "somewhat" lacking in the old maintenace, mainly due to cut-throat competition between the various Russian operators. However many of their pilots and tech-crews are very well trained and experienced in the type of aircraft they operate.
The above does not however exclude the fact that they have serious problems with some of the following:

- Lack of recurrency training on the type operated, some guys not seen Sim or an instructor since early -80's
- Lack of standardisation in operating procedures as well as maintenance procedures.
- Operating using out of date enroute charts and app-plates
- Lack of available spares and tools to correct problems
- Flying with aircraft in total shambles
- Serious problems with reading , writing and understanding English language especially when it comes to ATC and technical language.
These are just to name a few. Guess some of the points can be used to describe many third world carriers.

Regardless I can assure you PETESEVENSEVEN that a small Russian company operating aircraft as complex and demanding as L1011 in Africa just wont make it.
Russian mechanics with limited english (Ok they may speak excellent english) but no experience on the L1011.
Add to that the lack of spare parts (And prices for thosre spares available) on the market. They will either crash it or brake it in just no time.
We operated L1011 for quite a few years and know the problems involved in operating the aircraft type. We had engineers with years and years of experience on the type... There is a reason why the aircraft is no longer in our fleet."

Your comparison to Aeroflot is totally out of place. Aeroflot is a large company with considerable casflow with many western aircraft being leased from western leasing companies. These require aircraft to be maintained to a certain standard performing periodic checks to verify compliance with terms of lease, hardly the case of this L1011 operator.

AD

[petesevenseven]

ShenziRubani,

Thank you Rafiki You are absolutely correct!!!! You are absolutely spot on!!!! I can't argue with what you have said you know what you are talking about mate!!!!!

Atlanta-Driver,

Fair enough man I accept the facts that you have both refreshed and put forward!!!

As I said before I don't know the whole story of this particular aircraft in question, but (in an ideal world) lets just say this particular russian tristar owner had the spares, the tools, the money and the language at hand I honestly sincerely believe they could do the job.

I honestly don't believe that a Tristar is too complex for some of these guys, the reason that I used the aeroflot comparison was to point this out.



Happy Landings!!!!!


Pete!!!

[406pilot]

hey shenzi
"welcome to the pete moking party"
Atlanta driver you nailed it right pete is such a guy that what he believe is right, has to be right no matter what the rest of the world think...i mean he is the only guy in this column who is thinking differently..cyprian greeks were clever then that or could it be the russian influence on you??

chill out mate

no more 406pilot

ps:i thought you said that this was going to be your last reply pete-77?

[petesevenseven]

Chief,

Let me refresh the topic for you again please because it seems that you are suffering from too much garlic naan's going from your stomach to your head!!!

THE TOPIC IS

"Tristar in the hands of Russian owner" you know the thing that gets me Budda is that with all of your posts on this topic you've been taking pot shots at me and you have not been addressing the topic.

I think that if you have nothing productive to say about this topic stop wasting your time dude because eating Garlic Naan is better!!!!

And before you take pot shots at us Greeks Remember who the providers of all your Garlic Naans were for all those years!!!!!


As you say man Keep it up there!!!


Pole Bwana!!!

Pete