Shortage of quality pilots in the UK?

[greenarrow]

There seems to be a lack of quality pilots in the UK at this time.
Companies are having problems getting pilots to fill the short notice slots.

An availabilty list on pprune might give some of those sitting on the fence a chance to get a bit of extra flying.
i.e. Name, Types on licence, Flying Hours, Location & Dates available. To update monthly that way the records are kept upto date.

Just a thought!:ok:

[Heliport]

If you know of any jobs going - salaried or 'one-off' - post details.

eg I've heard at least one operator is looking for an experienced A109 pilot for Silverstone.

If you know anything, let us know.

Heliport

[headsethair]

A shortage of quality pilots........well there are/were plenty. But when you've got an industry that treats its skillsbase with such contempt there has to come a day when that base becomes eroded.
And the change in training from PPL/Instructor/Commercial to PPL/Commercial combined with the continuing lack of a dedicated JAR CPL(H) syllabus hasn't helped.
The UK CPL/ATPL pilot database can only shrink for the forseeable future.

And that's why bricklayers at T5 are getting £60,000 a year.......market forces should push up pilot rates.

[TeeS]

Headsethair

Just a slightly wine induced thought, but is the reason a bricklayer can earn £60,000 because he can demonstrate the ability to lay twice as many bricks as a £30,000 bricky?

Sadly our employers just need someone to fill a seat - they won't know whether they got a good deal until we have worked for a few years without screwing up!!!!

TeeS

[headsethair]

Hic! "Just a slightly wine induced thought, but is the reason a bricklayer can earn £60,000 because he can demonstrate the ability to lay twice as many bricks as a £30,000 bricky? "

No. It's because of the shortage of skilled bricklayers. Next time you go past the T5 site take a look at the town of caravans that has sprung up near the M25- the place is a magnet for anyone with a building skill.

[airborne_artist]

Not just brickies on big bucks. An electrician I know was offered £100,000 + for 12 months of 60 hours weeks at T5.

[Heliport]

I suspect most of us would agree tradesmen earn and charge ludicrous amounts of money but before we get on to plumbers, whose extortionate charges are enough to make anyone's blood boil, can we get back to the interesting issue raised by greenarrow.

Is there a shortage of experienced helicopter pilots in the UK?

If yes ..... why do you think that is?

Have the changes in training regulations made it prohibitively expensive for many people to become professional helicopter pilots?

Is there a shortage generally? Or only when there's exceptional demand for helicopters for big events? eg Royal Ascot, Grand Prix weekend at Silverstone, Cowes Week etc?

Does the CAA's approach to aviation generally and helicopter ops in particuar help the industry grow? Or hinder growth? Or does it make no difference?


Heliport http://www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au/pprune/actsm.gif

[headsethair]

Right. A few observations.
There is no doubt that the change in training requirements has caused not only a drop-off in potential pilots, but a sluggish processing of existing pilots. I come across many really good PPLs who would make very able CPLs - but they simply cannot afford the time and money to finish their training. At least the "old" method allowed someone to make a bit of a crust as they progressed through the instructor stage. Now, there's no way of making money legally - you have to be funded all the way through the very expensive CPL or ATPL courses. (Apologies if a lot of this is obvious to rotorheads - but we have a lot of browsers who want to make careers in aviation. They don't always know the problems.)

So - the alternative is to use taxpayer money and join the services. But this isn't necessarily the way to find good CPLs and ATPLs. The type of flier who makes a good civilian pilot isn't necessarily a military-trained one. I was intrigued to read 2 seperate comments about mil pilots in the HCGB mag today.

Dick Sanford had to go and check-out some multi-thousand hour Russian pilots who were to become R22 instructors. These guys had never, never flown a light heli. In the words of Dick, they were so shocked that the flying was "interesting".

In the same mag was a comment from a London ATC. He stated that the pilots who caused most of the problems on the heli routes were military - they find it difficult to comply with the tight requirements. And yet I know PPLs who handle the intricacies of these routes with aplomb and fine accuracy.

We need to take a hard look at UK training - it isn't producing a flood of pilots and of the students I meet who are trying to make headway say they cannot understand why the industry regulators make it so terribly tough for fliers to get through.

It's unbelievable how little the authorities seem to care about the constipation they have caused - and for no reason.

The civilian helicopter industry in the UK is in severe danger of drowning in useless paper, pointless regs, elongated expensive training. We need some CAA initiatives - not more roadblocks.

[ambidextrous]

To all and sundry, felicitations,
There's one pilot out here who's certainly experienced, 14,600 hrs., numerous types(9) with ALTP/H + I/R multi-turbine and no longer flying. Why not, because he's over 60, shame but elsewhere in the universe i.e.FAA he could continue without restriction i.e. he doesn't have to be in a two-crew situation. Why is this situation only applicable to UK/EU and not elsewhere?, I don't see any increase in the accident rate due pilot incapacitation elsewhere in the world. Could it be that our regulators are behind the demographic curve or is it the influence of airline pilot unions i.e."Fat Albert Jockeys with 30yrs. in the RHS/LHS & a million pound pension pot to play with"? Or could it be the influence of the insurance industry actuaries that ultimately decide these restrictive trade/human rights discrimination policies? Answers on a postcard please to SAGS suite, Reid Towers, Weddick Way, Lagos.

[Camp Freddie]

if there are so many unfilled vacancies out there in the uk, why dont these companies try advertising.

as they do only occasionally, i can only assume that these positions dont really exist.

i would like to know on what evidence greenarrow bases his statement.

my own anecdotal evidence does not support this theory at all.

maybe it is time for helicopter companies to behave like a normal company, and do things like recruit normally rather than ask their old mate and be told unnofically that this bloke is a "good egg" or a "bit of an arse" and while they are at it why not get applicants to fill in application forms (I know i never have) unusual in the helicopter world i know, but quite popular in the normal world !

[jellycopter]

Hedsethair states:

"At least the "old" method allowed someone to make a bit of a crust as they progressed through the instructor stage."

"The type of flier who makes a good civilian pilot isn't necessarily a military-trained one."

By implication, in Hedsethair's world, it would appear that what one really needs to become a quality pilot is to fly an R22/H269 around the circuit a few hundred times and fly a few of 50nm navexs!

Obviously several years and a few thousand hours at low level, in crap weather, with even crappier nav kit, a flypro that changes by the minute, a hostile threat, a wingman (or 2 or 3) and 2 radios to operate (using 2 seperate voice procedures) makes the average ex-mil pilot entirely under-qualified to fly the heli-lanes or have a CPL.

If I were looking to recruit a quality pilot, I know where I'd turn. However, if I were just looking to fill a seat and get someone to do as they're told and not too readily say no when expected to bend the rules a bit, well I know where I'd turn for that too.

I don't really want to start a military/civil debate here but the inference contained in headsethair's post just pi$$es me off.

J

[headsethair]

"By implication, in Hedsethair's world, it would appear that what one really needs to become a quality pilot is to fly an R22/H269 around the circuit a few hundred times and fly a few of 50nm navexs"

If the world was run by implication, we'd be in an even bigger mess than we are. None of the above is a correct reflection or understanding of my post. (BTW - you've chosen to ignore an important word I used : "necessarily")

But I don't see why we should accept a situation where the taxpayer is the only solid source of funding for helicopter pilot training. It's crazy - and just a little bit unfair on the taxpayer who funds the training, the mishaps and the thousands of hours. And then sees this all used for, ultimately, private gain.

However, that's not the subject of this debate. But it will be if we keep our blinkers on.

[Heliport]

Come on headsethair. :) Any importance which might otherwise have been attached to "necessarily" was lost in those anecdotes you quoted.
I happen to agree with you it's a great shame the instructor route to a CPL has been taken away, but you might be on weaker ground if you invite comparison between the flying/experience of military pilots and civvy FI's.
In your later post, you say "I don't see why we should accept a situation where the taxpayer is the only solid source of funding for helicopter pilot training". Fair point, but then you add comments about 'unfairness to the taxpayer' and 'ultimately, private gain.'
If you don't want a mil v civil debate, it's better to avoid comments which are likely to provoke one. ;)

[What Limits]

Perhaps greenarrow with the vast resources available to him might like to start an Aviation Academy and sponsor a few promising pilots through the necessary qualifications. Certainly the supply of mil pilots is drying up (and they are not necessarily the best anyway) and the self improver route is now closed.

Take a leaf out of the Airlines book and train your own.

[dammyneckhurts]

Lots of talk about poor wages I see, seems to me that a shortage of experienced pilots is exactly what you would want to see.
I cant think of a better way to motivate employers to pay higher wages than to be in a bidding war with other companies to retain the expertise of experienced drivers. After all, it's all dictated by supply and demand, free market society and all.....(unless a Union creates a false pay rate, that is not a reflection of the supply)

Can anyone give me a brief overview of the process in the U.K. most guys go through to get to a level where they are considered "hireable" for a decent wage? I was born in the U.K., curious about how it compares with Canada..

[headsethair]

"If you don't want a mil v civil debate, it's better to avoid comments which are likely to provoke one. "

Heliport - thanks for that. I'm so glad I took the time to post a reply to your question. Shall I go to the quad for 30 minutes ?

I left school 30 years ago - but I've just had a terrible flashback.

[Banjo]

Whilst not wishing to annoy all the hard working instructors out there I do have one small point to make.

I have over 1000hrs including some 750 hours instructional time having come through the old system to CPL.

I consider myself to be a good instructor who cares about his students and let my pupils fly the aircraft as much as they can from the outset. Whilst I demonstrate the various exercises and am able to carry them out well my total actual hands on stick time is probably only about 5% of the 750+hours instructional time I have logged. I hope this is the case with any good instructor as really we should be sitting there while the student flies not the other way around (though I do hear of instructors who are always grabbing the controls and assume this is because they do not feel comfortable in the aircraft or their ability to recover from the students mistakes).

Having moved into the world of commercial flying I am aware that once removed from the set paramaters of instructing where you know and control most of the variables of each flight ie. the same old navex route. which fields for forced landings etc. things can soon begin to pile up on the new CPL Pilot.

Customers who change their destination in mid flight, unfamiliar landing sites that in no way match the description given and are marginal on size. Flying out of balance and bordering on vortex so the cameraman can get that shot just right for the director, airspace such as Silverstone with their quick turn round times and multiple radio calls and frequency changes not to mention the good old pressure of your mouth saying yes and your stomach saying no when given a job as you don't want to upset/look bad to the boss. This last one being a real problem for new/young pilots who have just got the first paying job. The list goes on.

In all having gained your hours to CPL through instructing I do believe that there is room for some to expect more from you than you can give. Whilst we have the hours on paper this is slightly misleading. At least with a fresh new 185 hour CPL the company knows (or should do) that you really need to have your hand held and brought along slowly and with plenty of on going training and supervision as you build your experience levels up.

Yes if the donkey stops I am sure that any good in practice instructor will get everyone down in one piece however I can also see him having a CFIT accident in low vis while scud running to try and complete a job he is not happy with so as to keep that valuable first job. Something an ex military boy would probably be less likely to do due to his experience levels as well as maturity to tell the boss to stick it.

I accept there are exceptions to the rule and do not wish to upset anyone here but my point is, being an instructor does not automatically make you a good commercial pilot and so ending this route to CPL does not mean an immediate shortage of "experienced" pilots.

As to being able to earn as you build your way to a CPL I find this hard to follow. Requiring as you do 300hrs on helicopters to becom an FI in the first place you most likely spent a good £30 to £35,000 pounds on PPl and hours building followed by another £6000 or so on an instructor course where as this £42,000 pound or so could go a long way towards a CPL in the first place.

I await to be shot down in flames.:ouch:

[CyclicRick]

I can't see where anybody is going to scrounge up enough money to get an ATPL(H) with IFR/ multi/ MCC. It was bad enough before but now...?

[paco]

It would appear to be similar to canada - plenty of pilots, but some "consultants" are advising companies that they need 2000-hour pilots for the most elementary tasks, and they get badly treated when they do get them. At least two people I know have retired because they can't stand the customers.

I'm booked for Silverstone, but am otherwise available - 206/350/355/500, ATP heli and fixed wing, 7500 hrs no accidents.

Also approved CRMI with own single-pilot heli course....;)

Phil

[imabell]

actually greenarrow talks about "the lack of quality pilots in the uk", quite a different proposition to qualified.:{ :{

[Thomas coupling]

I sense there is a developing shortage in the part of the heli world I am from, too. We dont seem to be able to get our 'relief' pilots as readily as we used to.
I still keep in touch with the lads in the mil (2 of my line pilots are in the reserves) and improving pay and 'conditions' (overall) within the mil are stemming the outflow. This must have an impact then? On top of a shrinking (mil) workforce too.

Flungdung: I dont want to teach you to suck eggs, but CV's went out with the ark when I used to sail!!!

You've got to be a LOT more agressive than that to get that job youre after. Get your face down there and do some talking:oh:

What limits: the big(ish) boys do train their own: Bristows / BASL and even Premiair!

Money is still cr*p at the end of it though:sad:

[Thomas coupling]

Flungdung:

Our 'relief' pilots come from big service providers. They advertise constantly. Yet the barrell seems to be drying up or atleast takes some time to replenish by comparison to say, 3+ years ago.

6 jobs in 16 years....Mmmmmm.

It's all cyclical anyway, this time there's a shortage, 'x' years from now, a surplus....what's new?

Remember the thread we ran for highest and lowest paid helo pilots [£15000 - £150,000]. I doubt whether thats changed much and that 70% are leaning towards the lower end of the scale. Perhaps that's why there is a shrtoage of qualified pilots:
Too many rules.
Too many exams.
Too many checks.
Too little remuneration.

The young pilots of today are spotting it a mile off and deciding with their heads and not their hearts!

Blah over ;)

[Whirlygig]

TC,

exactly!

Let's, for argument's sake, say, I would make a quality pilot. However, I would have to consider putting half a house on the line to get the necessary experience and qualifications to be such. When there are so few positions as a helicopter pilot, paying not enough to get the half house back, I think with head.

I find this a bizarre thread; on the one hand, a deficit of pilots and, on other threads, a surplus since the off-shore boys aren't recruiting etc.

So... what makes quality? and where are the shortages? Because, as I have gathered from previous threads, the only way to get the hours would be to work as an instructor (which is more hour-building and training).

If quality means ex-military, well that's a lot of people excluded since so few get trained that way and only if you have had the presence of mind in your 20s to do it!!

However, if maturity, people-skills and flexibilty are the key, then hey, I should be up there! But, it seems to me, as if the ******-in-the-woodpile is the insurance requirement placed on operators.

However, would like to have deficit/surplus dichotomy explained!

Cheers

Whirlygig

[paco]

Imabell -

I've flown with 17,000 hour pilots who I wouldn't trust with a pram, and 200 hour pilots whom I would trust with anything - just because someone has low time, doesn't mean they are not quality.

Phil

[imabell]

paco,

i agree whole heartedly with you, some low time pilots are exceptional.

i was only pointing out that the thread started out about quality not qualified. some qualified pilots aren't worth feeding.

i would hire a low time "quality" pilot anytime.

graeme:D

[Thomas coupling]

oooeee, touched a raw nerve there flungdung,eh?

Atleast I'll have a pension...
Leaving the mil after 12 years and changing jobs, on average every 30 months gets you a pension...not!

I note you've only been in your current OZ job less than a year. If I was you CP, I'd be concerned.......

You're not a rotary romany are you?

no hard feelings eh?

[greenarrow]

When I started this thread I realised that it might hit a raw nerve or two.
The big problem we have here in the UK unless you're established in the market and fly a variety of types, work can be hard to come by. Most of the operators depend on word of mouth to get pilots.
The work here is very seasonal (March-September).
Those regulars in the system have started their lifes (outside of the North sea) as weekend B206 jockeys then develop into the weekday charter market understand that you do need to get out and about. People get to see faces and meet at the events, i.e Cheltenham to the Grand Prix. Therefore when the word of mouth starts someone knows someone who might help.
This year it has been noticable that there are less pilots available to the operators for short notice work. A few pilots do spread themselves rather thin by working for 3-4 companies. A few pilots when they get a job try and tuck up the customer therefore do not get any more work from that company, and a few pilots talk out of school regarding jobs (flights) they have been on.

Quality pilots are those you can trust to do the job, ask few questions and relate well to the customer. Yes, experience does count but so does loyalty to the operator.

The work is there for those who can conduct themselves profesionally, then word of mouth works. "Yes he or she are good pilots they will not let you down". It takes time to bed into the market, keep your nose clean, say hello to the aloof looking pilots with their starch shirts, gold bars and dark sun glasses, they are not looking down at you, they just can't see you.

Become a Quality pilot!! (Remember Quality is a degree of excellence).:ok:

[Jarvy]

I gained my CPL(H) back in March, but having spent all my money I haven't flown since. Low hours (240tt, including 206 rating) mean no work. I can't afford any more hour building toward the 300 needed for the instructors course.So to me the old system would have been a lot better! When companys say theres a pilot shortage what they mean is they want multi thousand hour pilots available at short notice at low cost!!!

[TeeS]

Jarvy

Keep plugging away at the big operators. If you want the job, your CV needs to be the one at the top of the pile when the Chief Pilot has a vacancy to fill.

Don't forget the corporate operators that operate two pilots, just keep firing the CV's at them.

Good Luck

TeeS

[Flingingwings]

Jarvy,

Hang in there, have you not heard the rumour that the TT hours to start the Instructors course is dropping to 250.

Last bit I heard was direct from the CAA, and new regs may be in place by end of summer if admin bods within the Ivory Towers can get their fingers working and issue the AIC:ok:

[Jarvy]

Heard rumours some time ago from a very good source but I know how quick the CAA move! As soon as it does change to 250hrs I will beg, steal or borrow money for instructors course.
Thanks for the support!!

[Staticdroop]

Hi long time reader first time poster,
In reply to the shortage of QUALITY pilots available at the moment i feel that you need to look at the source.
Mil are paying their chaps handsomely and offering various incentives to stay, this may change in the not to distant future with cuts forecast.
Civil, cost. I instruct, as well as other things, and have seen the huge cost someone has to endure to gain their initial foothold in this very small market, here in UK anyway. Then they must try and get their first paying job, and we all know that is very difficult with limited hours and experience.
Quality does require a bit of time, not the huge amount of hours some jobs require bit enough to be competent and relaxed in the aircraft with paying passengers. Unfortunately the cost of training will reduce the amount of bodies available for this market.:sad:

[paco]

I would add to Greenarrow's definition of a quality pilot. It's one who:

Has a professional attitude

Does not crash the aircraft

Does not scare the passengers

Turns up on time

Doesn't hand out his own business cards

Fills in the forms right

Has a modest amount of flying experience - enough to know how not to get into trouble


Phil

[EESDL]

Shortage of quality pilots.....is that because they're currently hovering over Athens?