Standards @ VB

[whatitsdoingnow]

I have heard on the vine that not is all well at VB-(From a standards point of view). Crews flying up to a Flight level above t
hat allowed in the FMC because the flight plan had them there . The plan was worked the day before on prelim figures. The actural wts far different from the planned.The result has been a No. of cases of A/C stalling and in 1 case I heard lost some 8000 ft .Before recovering.
A safety auditor appointed (EX Ansset) heared tearing his hair out .
I only mention this because by the time it gets to me its been around for weeks

[Watchdog]

Sounds like BS to me!

As if the guys in the sharp end would blindly follow the plan, ignoring the CDU message and allow the acft to fly into the "zipper". In any case the AFS & Stall protection wouldn't allow a stall to occur.

Sounds like someones having a lend of ya whatsitdoin

:O

[Macrohard]

And when they were asked to reduce to min speed by ATC, they did as instructed .... then asked to turn 90 degrees off track, they did as instructed .... however the min speed they had selected was less than that prescribed by Mr Boeing, with that horrible heart starting, newspaper dropping, coffee spilling stick shaker annoying them for the next 6000' before they regained composure .... and that's a fact! :uhoh:

[esreverlluf]

Can't vouch for the validity of Macrohard's story, but if it's true, then between that and their recent maintenance history, perhaps it is time that the regulatory authorities got a bit more actively involved with the great VB. I seem to recall another (more Australian) airline being grounded for less.

It's a shame that Bob Katter wasn't onboard - I wonder how a near stall with consequent height loss would have compared to the "Go-Around" experience for him.

[Icarus2001]

6000' feet height loss...8000' height losss....wow....

I find it very hard to believe that an RPT jet aircraft operating mostly in A & C airspace could lose anywhere near that much "height" and not be reported in either the ATSB website or more likely, very surprised passengers (and FAs) spouting off to any reporter that would listen. Which is most of them. What about the ATCO who saw it happen on his/her screen or took the call if they were outside radar coverage? Don't you think they might spill the beans?

Sounds like yet another attempt to 'prove' that the only pilots that should be flying RPT jet aircraft in Australia are QF pilots.

[Chilli Muscle]

Good training standards use to separate Australian airlines from some "other carriers" but not any more. I expect there will be more where that came from.:uhoh:

[Macrohard]

Believe it or not, however, it is now a SOP that the HDG SEL be set to 10 degrees when reaching cruise level to avoid any further embarrassment. Don't know how that satisfies the requirement of a rate one/25 AoB turn requirement?

[5miles]

And when they were asked to reduce to min speed by ATC, they did as instructed .... then asked to turn 90 degrees off track, they did as instructed ....


If that's the facts, then certainly they were under radar coverage and there would have been at least one witness watching the big eye in the sky.

:ok:

[Beer Can Dreaming]

And here's me being told by a 20 year old Qantas Second Officer the meaning and difference between Optimum and Maximum flight levels as prescribed by the FMC.

Perhaps VB dont teach their pilots accordingly?
Sounds like crisis management rather than good training.

[Icarus2001]

Microhard
Don't know how that satisfies the requirement of a rate one/25 AoB turn requirement?

Are you talking about the maximum permitted AOB/ROT as per the AIP or some company SOP?

[Woomera]

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

Caveat Emptor!

Woomera

[rescue 1]

It would not be the first time that a B737-800 has stalled at altitude. Agree with 5miles that it would have been on the radar tape, the departure from altitude ringing bells. Appropriate paperwork would have been entered...

Can someone tell me about blue star - the new recruitment methodology at VB??

[Macrohard]

Skyway, so why was the procedure introduced to set the angle of bank selector to 10 degrees at top of climb ?? Just because they thought it was a good idea? :confused:

[Level Change 340kt]

MINIMUM SPEEDS
The amber bar on the PFD speed tape, identifies the minimum speed that provides a 1.3g buffet margin. This margin of safety is easily eroded if the aircraft climbs, carries out a turn, or experiences turbulence.
The FMC includes a real-time bank limited function which is designed to help preclude LNAV commanded bank angle from exceeding the current available thrust limit. This bank angle protection is not available when LNAV mode is deactivated.

When manoeuvring at high altitudes with LNAV de-activated, flight crew should:
1. Fly at least 10kt above the lower amber band if sufficient speed margin to the upper band is available.
2. If speed drops below the amber band limit, immediately increase speed by carrying out one of the following:
(a) Reduce angle of bank,
(b) Increase thrust (up to Max Continuous Thrust - MCT), as required, or,
(c) Descend.
3. Limit bank angle to no more than 10 degrees for manual steering in cruise. The MCP bank angle selector should be set to 10 degrees from TOC to TOD to preclude higher bank angles during cruise manoeuvring in HDG SEL mode.

I hope this answers your question.

[amos2]

...and Level Change 340 obviously knows what he's talking about, unlike the rest of you turkeys who smack of PPL status, perhaps even SPL status?

I mean, what is this? Bag airline pilots because you haven't made it yet?

Never, ever, forget, there are only two types of pilots.

Airline pilots and those who want to be Airline pilots!!!

:mad:

[cheklapsap]

Macrohard

I seem to recall it's the same on the 744? Boeing SOP to go to 10 degrees bank angle selection at TOC in case of HDG SEL manoeuvering. Been off it for a while so may be wrong?

Cls

[Macrohard]

LVL CHG 340, Reading between the lines, Boeing FCTM for NG states a limitation of Vref40+100kt for holding above FL250. This is to provide adequate manouvre margin during the turns in the holding pattern. This speed is often above the amber bar+10kt on the speed tape. There is nothing stopping a crew from operating at a lower speed, ie. ALT HOLD thus reducing the margin available. So how does DJ rectify the problem of someone(?) not adhering to the limitations prescribed by Boeing? ... Simple, instead of ensure adequate training or recurrent training, apply a blanket procedure by which all crew must now adopt.

What ever happened to reading the books and knowing the limitations of the aircraft?

BTW, (LVL CHG 340) your post reeks of plagiarism .... did you come up with those ideas? Are they printed in an operating manual of the NG or were you provided them, spoon feed?

[Capt Basil Brush]

Macrohardon,

Everyone knows about the FCTM speed limitations for holding above F250.

The procedure being discussed here (10 deg bank during cruise) is for just that - Cruise. It does not necessarily mean someone stalled and lost 6000' or whatever was quoted.

whatsitdoingnow seems to be an appropriate name to the thread starter.

[Macrohard]

So Capt Toilet Brush , (you started it), if Everyone knows about the FCTM speed limitations for holding above F250.

Just what is the story?

Why was a bulletin put out to the pilots, to change the procedure to select 10 degrees AoB upon reaching top of climb?

Oh, I've got it...... JR decides he feels like it!! Had to put a lot of thought into that one!

Why not ask a couple of the check Captains? That's where I got my story from! :eek:

[Rind Skin]

bunch of sissies. Can't believe you fly at 10 Deg AOB in the cruise. WHY???? WHat's ya problem??? Gonna stall the thing???

What a joke. Have you worked through the performance charts or did some dickless boffin tell you that was a good idea????

Get a spine-bone you guys and operate the thing like a jet like it's meant to be, you're making it 10X harder than it needs to be

[assymetric]

I have heard of ESIR's being issued for minor altitude deviations i.e. 200' - 300'. Can't imagine what would occur if radar picked up a sudden 6000' - 8000' drop in altitude.

An Macro says he "knows this for a fact" I dont see how you could unless you were one of the drivers. ????????????:uhoh: :uhoh:

[esreverlluf]

The wheels of bureacracy turn pretty slowly no matter how much faith Skyway has in CASA - and he/she/it's probably the only one who has. So my guess is that it may be a while before we learn anything definitively of this story even if there is any truth to it.

Don't forget you guys - this is after all a RUMOUR network.

[Agent86]

Ah but if an aircraft is CLEARED for descent and then suddenly plummets ..who are ATC to question the descent profile of the skygods :}

No transgression of clearance but still untidy.

Anyone got any REAL info on this or is the R in PPRune being used.

[Ralph the Bong]

Microhard,

using 10 degrees is more fuel efficient for a start. I personally like to use 5 degrees for WX deviations, ect.

Good post Level Change.

[HotDog]

whatitsdoingnow, would you believe the earth is flat?:confused:

[TIMMEEEE]

Macrohard, your posts are valid and to the point.

It's quite obvious that to set the heading selector to a 10 degree bank angle was done for an obvious reason - to avoid some stupid fool from stalling in a turn.
This obviously is a knee-jerk reaction from the VB flight ops dept after an incident.
At the same time this is simply not Boeing procedure at all.

The fact that someone could let themselves get that slow and was flying either close to or above the maximum FMC altitude reaks of a lack of professionalism, due to them being unaware of the increase in stall speed and the obvious impending dangers.
Being near a performance limitation (ie: such as close to max altitude) means you treat the aircraft with kid gloves and should always be aware of stalling in turns or the effects of turbulence or rapid shifts in wind.

An increase in head wind could trigger the overspeed alert if close to the buffet boundary and the stick shaker warning go if close to the min manoeuvre speed and an increase of tailwind is recognised.

It is also quite obvious that VB has adopted this needless bank angle policy because some pilots at VB (not all) are apparently unaware of how an aircraft will perform when at or close to operational maximums (such as max alt etc).

Ralph the Bong - who says 10 degree angle of bank is more efficient?
If being vectored through say 90 degrees, the radius of turn is much greater and hence more track miles traversed, only to have more track miles to cover when the corrective vector is issued.
As for weather deviations, if far from the weather and you may want to give the pax a nice ride then fine - pilots discretion, but have to disagree about 10 degree bank being more "fuel efficient" especially when being vectored.

Basil Brush - its quite obvious that not all VB pilots are aware of the FTCM speed limitations above FL250.
Otherwise this incident would have never happened and the ridiculous and restrictive bank angle requirement of 10 degrees would never have been implemented.
Boeing have no problem with it remaining in "auto" mode as does every other airline in the world.
Why are Virgin Blue any different??

Its quite obvious that VB have adopted this angle of bank policy to cater for the lowest common deniminator in this case - one lame-brained pilot/crew that either stalled or came close to stalling a passenger jet needlessly.

If this is indeed true then VB should seriously look at the both their training system as well as the people they employ.
Once again the majority of VB pilots are quite experienced and fine, but there are some others that obviously drag the chain in a severe way.

[Dehavillanddriver]

I can assure you that no one is flying above FMC maximum.

A quick question...why did QF introduce speed restrictions on descent, particularly in the last part of the descent?

People manage their operations as they see fit, and react to events as they occur.

The introduction of a procedure doesn't mean that something has happened, in some cases it can be a preventative measure to stop something happenning in the future - I am not saying that this is the case here - I don't know - however not everything is a "knee jerk" reaction

ALL airlines in the world have events occur that in an ideal world shouldn't or wouldn't happen.

The problem is when management or the pilot body fail to accept that there are problems and fail to rectify the situation.

The failure to introduce a procedure in my opinion is worse than introducing one - as it shows a lack of recognition that problems/challenges exist in the existing situation.

Instead of bagging companies and the individuals within them - why not have a look and see if there is a lesson to be learnt.

[Tunguska]

If I read this thread correctly a Virgin Blue 737 stalled at altitude whilst being radar vectored and their standards have come under fire.
To counter this the Standards department or Flight Operations have issued procedure that says whilst in the cruise a 10 degree angle of bank limit shall be set.

Now this really takes the cake boys and girls!!!!
As the previous post says this is countrary to Boeing normal procedures and is not a procedure used by my airline or anyone else from the UK/US or Asia Pacific I've spoken to.

To top things off some people come out in support of this procedure and lambast one individual for accurately criticising this procedure for the farce it really is.

Boeing have no problem with it remaining in "auto" mode as does every other airline in the world.

The above quote is accurate and seems to predicate the fact that there are some VB pilots that need their hands to be held.
Whether this is because of low experience levels or just a plain lack of airmanship or poor training I just dont know, but if this incident is true then VB needs to be looked at seriously.

If their pilots knew the limitations and operational speed requirements for holding above 25000 feet then this silly little procedure wouldn't exist.

[1013]

No wonder two pilots only recently resigned from VB to go work in Saudi Arabia.
Its obviously safer risking being killed or kidnapped and then decapitated by muslim extremists than flying with VB !!

Dont know about the stalling incident but agree the bank angle procedure is a standing joke and admission of lack of understanding by a few of its own pilots.
Lucky these lads werent flying for Emirates.
Those pilots flying the A340 out of Johannesburg were sacked.
Great way to endear pilots to a good CRM system with management support.

1013

[Capn Bloggs]

1013. Rubbish. They weren't sacked; the boss "resigned".

340.
This margin of safety is easily eroded if the aircraft climbs,
Please explain? What has the flight path angle got to do with minimum speed provided the speed is kept at the minimum by the A/T or the attentive crew?

[1013]

Captain Bloggs.

Check out the page on Rumours dealing with this topic with this quote:

"Confirmation i'm afraid.Both pilots involved in the overrun incident at J'burg have been sacked. Training manager has stepped down and will resume duties as training Capt.( Boss's son in law i gather).
Nice to know that the guys out there have the full support of their managers and the company doesn't believe in using scapegoats"

So you agree with this type of behaviour do we Bloggs?

Shall we say the postings on that thread have been less than flattering when it comes to Emirates way of dealing with things.

As some bright spark suggested, the topic headline of "heads roll in Emirates" may have been a tad touchy seeing the current state of affairs in the middle east.

[Capn Bloggs]

1013,
Accepted (from a rumour board). My information came from Flight Intl of last week. No mention was made of the crew being sacked. It WAS mentioned that the Sen VP Flt Ops, recently resigned, "the airline not revealing the reason or his departure".
So you agree with this type of behaviour do we Bloggs?
Without knowing the previous track record of the crew, and the PIC is command, it is impossible for you, or I, to cast judgement on a company decision to "sack" or use as a "scapegoat", a crew. After all, some things were never meant to fly, and just because they made it thru their initial check-to-line does not give them a god-given right to stay in their seat. Management must always have the right (and has a duty of care to the public) to remove, temporarily, or permanently, a crew member who doesn't make or maintain the grade.
Obviously, the decision that has to be made is whether the incident (and this VB one) was the result of a systemic problem, or just as case of incompetence.

[FlareArmed]

When manoeuvring at high altitudes with LNAV de-activated, flight crew should:
1. Fly at least 10kt above the lower amber band if sufficient speed margin to the upper band is available.
2. If speed drops below the amber band limit, immediately increase speed by carrying out one of the following:
(a) Reduce angle of bank,
(b) Increase thrust (up to Max Continuous Thrust - MCT), as required, or,
(c) Descend.
3. Limit bank angle to no more than 10 degrees for manual steering in cruise. The MCP bank angle selector should be set to 10 degrees from TOC to TOD to preclude higher bank angles during cruise manoeuvring in HDG SEL mode.

This is part of a recommendation released at the Boeing Conference in May, which was attended by Virgin Blue. It should be published in the FCTM in due course.

[rathouse]

Geeeezz Skyway, take a chill pill.

[Macrohard]

Skyway

Got those ATPL's done yet? Or are you still looking for a S/O slot at DJ? You are obviously way beyond you depth here mate.:{

[Kaptin M]

From Tunguska:-To counter this the Standards department or Flight Operations have issued procedure that says whilst in the cruise a 10 degree angle of bank limit shall be set.
Now this really takes the cake boys and girls!!!!
As the previous post says this is countrary to Boeing normal procedures and is not a procedure used by my airline or anyone else from the UK/US or Asia Pacific I've spoken to.
Well you obviously have a small circle of friends, Tunguska - this is SOP's for a large Asian carrier for which I have worked. (But then again, you're probably similarly unaware of the recommended 15 degree bank angle limit, following an engine failure at low speeds! :rolleyes: )

I realise, Skyway, that intelligence isn't linked to spelling ability - as a matter of fact, my Border Collies couldn't even spell DOG. But your little dummy spit, where you lambast all pilots senior to you, by stating:-
...give some of the younger more intelligent pilots a go...loses quite a lot of its impact as we read on and find that our "would-be-if-he-could-be" future astronaut trips over himself with simplistic spelling and punctuation errors, such as "Its called, I have been here to long.....you are an incosiderant (*&^$. That has got to be the lowest and yet unbacked statement on this network......THE POOR BLOKES FAMILY"
Sonny, you need to complete Grade iii English, if you even HOPE to get a look in. THEN the world might be a better place!

BTW, I'm looking forward to my retirement - one day - but I hope the standard of jocks in the front seats is several notches above Skyway's, for my kids' sake!!:ok:

[Tunguska]

Kaptin M

But then again, you're probably similarly unaware of the recommended 15 degree bank angle limit, following an engine failure at low speeds
Thanks for your input but I am not talking about the engine failure scenario here of which I'm quite conversant.
The VB procedure is to select the heading bank selector to 10 degrees when in the cruise.

This is not a normal Boeing procedure as far as I can see or have been told by mates working for Southwest, United, China Airlines, BA, Qantas, Air NZ or numerous other charter companies around Europe operating B737s.
The bank angle limit following an engine failure at low airspeeds is a different kettle of fish altogether but thanks for reminding me of the fact.
I believe also that use of the bank angle limiter after say a V1 cut is optional until the aircraft is established on the desired heading and at the adequate manoeuvre speed above V2, as long as the 15 bank angle is maintained.

Skyway.Take heed and advice from Macrohard and Kaptin M lad.
Looking back through your postings you were enquiring last year about whether VB had a second officer cadet type scheme.
You will need the ability to spell and basic english skills to get through life in even its simplest forms.
I too hope the pilots of the future are a cut above yourself Skyway.

God help us if they're not and good luck with those ATPL subjects also.!:E

[TIMMEEEE]

Flare Armed, I cannot find a Boeing Technical Bulletin/Notice with reference to this subject.
Surely it would also affect not only the B737 but also aircraft with similar automation systems such as the B757/B767/B747-400?

Also cannot find any revised Technical Bulletin to comply with any possible AD applicable.

Do you have a reference with an applicable Boeing website so that it can be accessed??

[Skyway]

I have just found out from a colleague of mine that someone has used my password to access these posts. Unfortunatly every time I log off my password remains, this has allowed one of my so called fellow workers to post some, well, rather interesting posts.

I sincerly apologise to all and asure you that I have changed my password to prevent further problems.

Interesting to note the attacks on my previous posts though!

:)

[FlareArmed]

TIMMEEEE,

The recommendation was made as part of a presentation at the May 2004, Boeing Flight Operations Symposium in Seattle. The presenter was Catherine Davis of Boeing Flight Operations Engineering and it was in the B737 'breakout' session.

Basically, with LNAV engaged, there is bank angle protection when turning at high altitude that ensures the drag does not exceed thrust capability. In HDG SEL, there is no protection and it is possible that the drag at angles of bank above 10 or 15 degrees may exceed the thrust available and cause speed reduction into the amber band.

As a result, it was recommended that the bank angle selector be placed in 10 or 15 at TOPC and left there until TOPD.

Virgin Blue management pilots were in attendance and they have obviously decided to implement Catherine's advice to increase safety.

Given time it will probably be published in the FCTM.

[TIMMEEEE]

Flare Armed, thanks very much for the references.

My criticism here is that they have a conference which is attended by operators worldwide and "suggest" procedures.
At the same time they failed to have the presented material promulgated in worldwide Technical Notices or Tech Bulletins.

Where does this leave Boeing legally if there is an incident/accident in the period between being "suggested" at a conference and having it legally promulgated??

Sounds like a piss poor process that can spell dangers or problems if the procedures havent been correctly adapted or misconstrued.

[cunninglinguist]

So the boys are learning ( albeit slowly ) that there are some minor differences between operating the " big " M23 and the 737:hmm:

[Mr.Buzzy]

Thanks for your observation cunning!

[mr anderson]

It is a real shame that it has come done to pilots trying to shoot each other down so it looks like there company is the best!!Grow up you clowns!!!!
Oh by the way this topic had to be started by a Qantas wanna be!!!!:yuk:

[Kaptin M]

FlareArmed, any idea if that protection (in LNAV) is still available in SPD intervention mode?