The Bondi Beach Project- Airspace Discussion in Sydney

[Chris Higgins]

To all interested parties..a survey.

I am proposing an informal meeting between all interested airspace users, Mr. Dick Smith, Air Traffic Controllers, Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association and selected members of the media for August of 2004.

As an interested Australian, with extensive overseas experience, I would like to offer my services as a mediator to try and sort out some of the extremely opposing views on airspace reform.

In the spirit of mediation and of democracy, I would like to offer some options for venue, date and time. I am open to any suggestions

Please forward a response to me no later than June 30th, 2004.

1. Of the following dates, please choose one:

a) August 9, 2004 (Monday)
b) August 10, 2004
c) August 11, 2004
d) August 12, 2004
e) August 13,2004

2. I would like to have the meeting at the:

a) Old Airport Hilton (it's changed ownership)
b) Marriot at Hyde Park
c) Marriot at Circular Quay

3. Of the following times I think this one is best:

a) Breakfast, through mid-morning
b) Mid morning through lunch
c) During early evening..say 7:00pm through to 9:30 pm
d) All day, because it'll take that long to sort through

4. I am a:

a) Pilot (GA)
b) Pilot (Airline)
c) Air Traffic Controller
d) member of the media
e) political leader of an association or other interest

Please submit topics and surveys to me ASAP.


Sincerely,


Chris Higgins

[email protected]

[Chris Higgins]

As for suggestions on topics. I don't think we really need to get all that specific just yet. We'll put the topics up, arrange them in some sort of order and post them too, as the week progresses.

Yes, I WILL protect your anonymity! Remember YOU have my name and personal e-mail.

[Chris Higgins]

Should that be included in a discussion too? Or just stick to airspace?

[Capcom]

Not sure how the roster will fit yet. If it is do'able I will be there!

Suggestion:

Have the agenda separated to discuss the Airspace and the Charging regime separately, otherwise you will need a week long lockdown :rolleyes:

Cap

[Woomera]

I am going to sticky this for a bit, as the subject matter is not clear from the thread title and would not wish those interested in this vitally important subject to miss it.

I am however concerned that there are now 4 stickies on the same subject but I am reluctant to let any go until the subject has run its course.

Lets see how it runs.

Chris Higgins

Thank you for your participation and we will provide whatever assistance we can.

The Woomera tribe.

[Chris Higgins]

Thanks for the sticky:

How about the following:

1) Review of near miss-incidents.

2) Review of airspace interpretation.

3) Review of existing light aircraft technologies.

4) Review of existing ATC technology and Australian radar coverage.

5) Where to from now?

6) Air Service charges/ user pays/ private airports.

7) What to do about the low student start numbers?

I will personally vote for a light snack over mid-morning through early afternoon, say four or so hours. Anyone else?

Lets put all the suggestions up on the board for everyone to see.

[DirtyPierre]

Chris,

I think this is a wonderful idea. Your agenda seems very long, and you'll need to build in strictly enforced timeframes for discussion, otherwise you'll be there for a week!

May I suggest that you get some representation from AOPA, perhaps gaunty. Reps from Civilair, ****su-tonka may be able to help out there with the appropriate people. Reps from RAAA and AFAP. Reps from AsA, Garth Cooper and Geoff Casey from Brisbane would be good. They work in Airspace, and Geoff has been heavily involved in ADS-B and other projects. Otherwise get Greg Hood from Melbourne.

Also, get the senior advisers from Martin Ferguson's and JA's office, and make them sit in on all the discussion.

Get a decent minute taker and publish your minutes publicly.

And maybe we can lobby to have you on the board of AsA.

Go for it!

[Niles Crane]

Get hold of 60 Minutes or similar, have them at the meeting for the day. This will give the reporter information to have a 1 hour "Debate" that can be aired on TV so all the arguments can become public knowledge.

This needs to go the the travelling public.

[Icarus2001]

Sorry to be a little negative Chris Higgins but an open meeting with people debating will achieve absolutely nothing.

First of all, the debate currently going on between Dick Smith and VoR is already showing the various points of view. Dick has an entrenched position and he is not the sort of person to comprise on anything. Having an open discussion will simply have people talking over the top of each other, yelling etc. Don't you think that if Dick was interested in what anyone else had to say he would have held open meetings around the country before pushing NAS on to the industry? Look at his track record.

Secondly, this forum provides anonymity for persons who operate at high levels in government and the aviation industry. Allowing information that would otherwise never see the light of day to be aired. These people cannot attend an open meeting and you and Dick know this. A cynical person might say that the planned Bondi meeting is a mechanism to flush out the dissenting voices within AsA, DOTARS, CASA etc. Who knows? How are you and Dick connected?

Thirdly, another meeting of pilots, ATCOs etc is just another talkfest. The people who are legally obliged to run airspace in Australia now appear to be back in charge. Dick is once again on the outer, hence his participation on this forum. John Anderson feels the pressure of an election around the corner and he knows he is vunerable on NAS.

What is it you hope to achieve? You talk about ideas you have for increasing student numbers. What has this got to do with the issue at hand? Nothing. Ask any CFI/CP who operates in this country, they know what is required. Coming from someone like yourself who trained in Oz and has lived and worked overseas for twenty years, smacks of " I'm from the US and I am here to help."

I for one have had enough of well meaning amateurs f*cking around with the industry where I make my living. Thank you for your offer but no thanks.

[CaptainMidnight]

Chris Higgins

I have to agree with Icarus2001. Well meaning you are, but I don't believe anything will be achieved. Nothing will change Dick's views, and the major players are now subjecting NAS to the proper safety and cost benefit analysis it should have had. You may not be aware that various review options have been presented to the industry this year, and a decision will be made next month on which one to adopt. I'd suggest you download the document below, and ask the National RAPAC Coordinator ([email protected]) for the latest Powerpoint presentation of the airspace options.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/pilotcentre/forums/RAPAC/rapacnsw040617.pdf

[DirtyPierre]

Chris,

Despite the views of Icarus and Capt. Midnight, I still believe that your Bondi meet is a good idea.

Instead of 60 minutes, contact the producers of 4 Corners, or Australian Story. They'll do a far better job.

Go for it. It won't hurt and it may help.

[ferris]

Don't you guys study history?
You would achieve far more if the meeting was held in Gwydir, with media present etc.

[DirtyPierre]

Ferris,

spot on but in Gwydir, with a packet of TimTams, saying that we should only use Aussie made products not cheap imports from the States.

[Chris Higgins]

Icarus 2001

Firstly, I've been Stateside for fourteen years, not twenty and come home to an Australian farm I still have ownership in at least once, if not twice a year. My passport still says, "Australia" and I was born in Hornsby Hospital. Not exactly a Yank meddling in other peoples affairs...

Secondly, I'm not here to rescue you! You'll have to do that yourselves! My role will merely be to mediate a process of discussion where we can have some meeting of the minds and allow the industry to move forward.

Thirdly, as for the poor student starts, I realise that aviation with an aging fleet has an image problem as you have recently pointed out, trying to attract new starts. It has been a problem for some time and there was a five year point in history where Cessna parts for light aircraft went up by almost 600%. With the price of fuel these days, combined with expensive fees and new licencing, you have a challenge ahead of you. Unfortunately, we wont be including this in the meeting....there simply won't be enough time.

Finally, I can understand your frustration and even your suspicion of me. I don't have any private agenda. I could simply fly movie stars to the Carribean, enjoy the success of two small businesses and have lots of children, but, that would be so un-Australian!

No, I don't even know Dick Smith.

I have no problem with legitimate issues involving conflict as I'm sure you will agree, this is the only way anything will ever get done.

[5miles]

Chris,

I wish you well in this endeavour.

However, from previous experience with Dick (& Mike) Smith, I don't think it will have any productive outcome.

Dick does not debate or mediate; he only prophesizes and lectures. He will not listen to reason simply because he won't let any one else with a contrary view get a word in.

As for media coverage, I don't suppose Mike Moore is one of your celebrity clients??

:ok:

[Chris Higgins]

Sorry, I can't disclose any identities of my clients, my confedentiality clause prevents it.

[Chris Higgins]

It looks like Circular Quay Marriott on August 10, with morning through lunch time being the hot favourite!

For all those who have sent me wonderful, (and long), e-mails, please be patient, you deserve the respect of a full reply.

[Chris Higgins]

I would like all interested parties to RSVP, by June 30, 2004. I have been told that I can have a conference room to do this at the Circular Quay Marriott, August 10, 2004. Time from 10:00 am to 2:00pm. No charge to you guys! There's a small lunch treat to get us through, but not a big meal.

The conference room seats 65.

If you wanna try and get this thing settled, be there! But..I need the numbers ASAP!

In the interests of decorum, only those participants that want their names listed on the docket should be allowed to present their information.

[email protected]

0011.1.724.493.0000

UTC -4 hours

[Icarus2001]

I'm sorry I smell a rat...:uhoh: If you wanna try and get this thing settled, be there!

What exactly do you plan to "get settled"?

In the interests of decorum, only those participants that want their names listed on the docket should be allowed to present their information.

Just what Dick Smith wants. Names, names , names. Then he can run his usual attack the man campaign.

Chris NAS is dead, long live NAS. The lunatics are no longer running the asylum.

[Woomera]

Caveat Emptor (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=caveat%20emptor)

Woomera

[Chris Higgins]

Icarus 2001

So I guess you want people to show up wearing masks too, huh? You seem to be a proponent of expressing your own opinion, well, so am I!

Perhaps it's easier to sit on the sidelines and yell insults than actually do anything with your life. Go back and try and make, "17 year olds horny at seeing a 1978 Cessna 152". Heck mate, if I'd had an instructor like you, I'd have never come back after the first lesson!

Dick Smith has absolutely nothing to do with the organisation of this meeting, with the exception of offering to show up. I have had only had one telephone conversation with him in my entire life. He also sent an e-mail offering to show up and that is that!

You will also note that Dick Smith criticized my own definitions of American Class E Airspace in another thread a while back. Technically he was correct and I have no trouble admitting that. It doesn't mean that life has to come to a standstill and we start calling each other names.

Icarus 2001, what exactly have you done with your life?! Did you ever start an Australian publishing company? How about fly around the world pole to pole? Did you ever employ thousands of people in the field of electronics? Prevent an Australian industry from being exported overseas? Can you fly a helicopter? Have you ever held a position of political office? Been awarded the Order of Australia, or The Australian of the Year?

What exactly has Dick Smith done for Australia? DUHHHH!

Woomera

Suggest you also add the definition for altruism.

To everyone else, thank you all for the outpouring of support for this project. I would invite Dick Smith to add to this post, or anyone else for that matter that has shown a keen interest in showing up. For those that don't wish to present, I'm sure representatives from the various interests will allow questions and answers, but I still need numbers.

[Icarus2001]

Chris Higgins it is good to see that you are learning from Dick how to play the man not the issue at hand. Dick Smith has absolutely nothing to do with the organisation of this meeting, with the exception of offering to show up. ...and that in itself is my point.

Clearly you know me well...
Icarus 2001, what exactly have you done with your life?! Did you ever start an Australian publishing company? How about fly around the world pole to pole? Did you ever employ thousands of people in the field of electronics? Prevent an Australian industry from being exported overseas? Can you fly a helicopter? Have you ever held a position of political office? Been awarded the Order of Australia, or The Australian of the Year?
I am ashamed. I have wasted my life teaching people how to fly. What a useless, hollow shell of a person I am.:suspect: I must go off and crawl under a rock.

Thank you Chris Higgins for showing me how worthless I am compared to Dick. You are absolutley right I have no right to hold my own opinion in this democracy we call Australia. That is reserved for business and political leaders and expat pilots like yourself.

I unreservedly apologise. I will take my worthless self away now.
Goodbye cruel pprune:uhoh:

[Woomera]

Chris Higgins

You asked for it;

Cambridge Dictionary

Definition

altruism
noun
willingness to do things which benefit other people, even if it results in disadvantage for yourself:
She's not known for her altruism.

altruist noun

altruistic adjective

I doubt whether her motives for donating the money are altruistic - she's probably looking for publicity.

altruistically adverb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

And from Another Woomeri, which dictionary definition for altruism do you prefer:

Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; or

Instinctive cooperative behavior that is detrimental to the individual but contributes to the survival of the species.

Our concern, as I pointed out to you by email, is solely to protect the anonymity - and livlihood - of our PPRuNe Members.

[ferris]

Chris.
I was planning to be there. I can't say that I am too keen, now you seem to want everyone to identify themselves. I'm fairly certain I'd be served some writs if I did.:hmm:
For the benefit of Dick's process server;
I believe that I look a lot like Pierce Brosnan.
I have been told by independant experts that I look a lot like Pierce Brosnan.
In fact, in north america , I am Pierce Brosnan.

[tobzalp]

lol. sif George.:ok: :E

[Dog One]

I will tell you one thing Chris, Dick Smith doesn't have to risk his life and those of his passengers in E airspace outside radar coverage every day, earning a living.

I am afraid that your meeting will achieve very little, lots of airline pilots told both the Smith's that the airspace wouldn't be safe, and they chose not to listen, branding us as union stooges. When thr near miss did happen, Airservices quickly moved to put in a tempory radar.

Doesn't that prove the airspace model is unsafe?

Chris, talk will not settle the problems, only action by the government will.

[Chris Higgins]

Icarus 2001

You seem to be able to offer countless insults to Mr Smith and others under the anonymity of this forum and not expect anything in return? You can give, but not take?

Okay, so you have chosen to live the life of the starving artist as you single-handedly save GA! Well, I hope your wife appreciates that...and your children when it's time to seek higher education. Icarus 2001, you are flying too close to the sun I fear, be careful you don't drown in your own self deprecation.

As someone who has Multi and IFR approval, together with aerobatics and tailwheel, my 2,000 hours of instructing are as valuable to my students as the last 2,000 hours offered by anyone else, yourself included. As a former ground instructor for a major US Airline on the Boeing 757/767, teaching systems ground school and simulators offered yet another rewarding instructional experience....but it also paid $100 k a year more than flight instruction in a GA aircraft. When I don't have to fly at 43,000 feet to Barbados, and I have a spare few days here at home, I still have the opportunity to instruct, the two are not mutually exclusive.

To everyone else...

Thanks for the outpouring of support. It appears that the conference room has seating for 65, I may have to get the larger one that has seating for about a 100. We have thirteen people wishing to present and nine wishing to show up and ask questions...not bad for three days.

Spread the word! One of you has sent me an e-mail with literally a dozen other contacts, that's a very nice gesture and I will direct them to this forum as well as offer an invitation.

No names have been divulged to anyone, we simply need to have an order of presentation at the meeting.

Mr Dick Smith will present first, I have already decided that!

[q1w2e3]

Chris

While you may be well intentioned you are coming across as a deluded (and somewhat egotistical) soul who comes riding into town to save the mexicans.

What you are proposing will only be a talkfest. No more. It will not solve anything because it will not attract the major players.

Dick will come along but you have to understand that he does not take other peoples points of view into account.

I am sure people appreciate your enthusiasm, but with just a little less of the 'hero' attitude.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Come on Ferris come clean, you know when you walk in the room everyone will spot you. Its hard to blend in when you are 6foot 4" 300 pound black man. Oh almost forgot that massive thriving afro you've got going there on top of your head!:E

[Chris Higgins]

Little "q"

I have no reason to make racist assertions about Mexicans or anyone else when making my point.

I see a lot of anger towards Dick Smith on this and other forums. I have no respect for those that choose to shoot from the shadows and run and hide. Although Woomera and others have expressed a need for confidentiality, that can only be respected for so long.

It's time to put up or shut up!

It seems that many have not seen this as an open forum to discuss airspace, but as a slugfest against Dick!

Again, I don't know the guy, perhaps he's a real pain in the backside, but I have to see for myself before I jump to conclusions.

As for the major players, don't worry they're coming!

As for my big ego...YEP it's bloody big! Get over it! It's what got me here and as a fellow Australian you should be proud of that!

Australians used to do well all the time when they went overseas, but many feel the fear now that was laughed about when referring to other nationalities. Nowhere is that more apparent than on these forums.

For those that don't think a talkfest can do well, I can assure you that such discussions have been the turning point of a great many events in history.

This is the Australian Airspace that we are talking about. I will not be delivering sermons from on high. This is about bringing adversaries together to find common ground to move forward. With the right attitude, and some proper planning, we will do just that!

[Chutney]

I'd go for the 100 seater mate. Should just get both egos in - wouldn't want Dick to be a no show:cool: :cool: :suspect:

[Kaptin M]

A couple of Q's about yourself, Chris. if I may....

What are your qualifications and experiece wrt aviation?
How much of that experience was gained in Australia/operating VH-registered aircraft?
And how much of it in the US?
How long have you been living in the US?

Finally - as someone who is resident in the USA (and married to a US citizen ?), why have you taken it upon yourself to organise this meeting - at YOUR expense, it would seem..is that correct?
Or will you be re-imbursed for any of your own out-of-pocket expenses related to this meeting? And if so, by whom?As for the major players, don't worry they're coming!Besides Dick Smith, WHO are the other major players you can guarantee will be there?

Thanks in advance.

[Chris Higgins]

Kaptin M

At last! Somebody asking some well founded and pertinent questions.

Because I stay 150 nights a year in hotel rooms, I am a platinum member of every hotel chain in the world. I have enough points to cover it, with the exception of a very small catering bill, which I certainly don't mind kicking in for.

I started learning to fly in 1983 at Needham Aviation in Port Macquarie, I was almost 16 so you can do the math, I'm now 36. I flew until October 1990 in Australia and left with just on 2,000 hours, a Senior Commercial Pilots Licence and a current command IFR and Grade 2.

My first employment was with Oxley Airlines as a baggage handler and I worked as a tradesman's assistant in aircraft engineering, mainly on Chieftains. My ground school was taught to me at Sydney Tech. in Ultimo, I finished my tech in 1986 and completed my CPL in early 1987. I went to Tillair and then after one of many recessions was laid off.

All was not lost though I was immediately hired in Mt Isa. When things slowed down again, quite a lot later, I elected to return to Bankstown to get an instructor's rating with Trudy Robbins at Kingsford Smith Aviation and finished it at Dubbo. I finished up an instrument rating with Bill Whitworth and flew some charter on the coast of Whitsunday and later returned to instruct in Port Macquarie. While back in Port Macquarie, I got the opportunity to deliver a Cessna 172 from Auckland to Coolangatta. I was there for just over a year before meeting my future wife.

To answer your question about why I should come down? The answer is, I go back to Australia quite often. I am there about two weeks every six months or so. My wife has a very succesful international business and I have a small business of my own. My sister has taken on our family farm and my brother-in-law has a business proposal to put to me involving some American contacts. I have to see him in August anyway.

Finally. My motivations may be simplistic in nature, but I grew up without a father. He died as a result of military service and is buried South of Sydney in a military cemetery. He was dedicated to the defence of a country that at the time was considered to be, "The Lucky Country". Don't you think it is?

I'm starting to think that there are many Australians who are actually starting to give up on Australia. I am not one of them and nor was my father.

I look at the naysayers on this forum, who run like hell at the very notion that they should stand up and be counted and it really worries me!

That's why I'm coming back.

You will see that I wrote in an earlier post that I would respect the anonymity of the people responding to me directly. That word is my bond and I will have to ask for your patience and not answer to you the names of attendees.

I will also be consulting with them as to the very construction of the meeting, it's desired outcomes and what, if any media reporting should be allowed.

Sincerely,

Chris Higgins

0011.1.724.493.0000

[email protected]

[Pinky the pilot]

Woomera; eh wantok, you forgot this one.....
'Ave Caesar, te morturi salutant!!'
Mr 'iggins; (with apologies to you and 'enry)
If time and finances permitted I would gladly attend the proposed meeting despite the fact that I'd have nothing to contribute. When it comes to this debate I admit that I'm way, way out of my depth! However I hold the view that ANY forum that may possibly bring attention to this subject and alert the 'powers that be' to the fact that the Bikkies man does not speak for all is better than no debate at all!

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

Pinky - Pigin not permitted on PPRuNe! :E

W

[tobzalp]

Here is my history.

Got into ATC.
Dick started f(_)cking with airspace and making my life hard.
I started typing this message.

[Chris Higgins]

Todzalp

Would you like to show up and let him know that? Or should I just pass along the message?

[tobzalp]

Chris Higgins

You people can chat all you want about what you want. Thankfully there is light at the end of the tunnel and the irrelevant Mr Smith has finally been ignored and people that actually have a schmick have taken over and they are developing a way to stop this incredibly poorly executed reform. Your meeting will achieve nothing other than a few hours of Dick preeching and you sitting in the crowd telling anyone who will listen that you fly planes in Damerica. The details of your meeting are of no consequence.

[Kaptin M]

Thank you for taking the time to reply, Chris...you certainly have some "all round" experience in Oz, from what you have let us in on, of your time spent Dunnunda in those "formative years".

There seems to be a twinge of good ole Aussie homesickness - and a desire to "do something" for your birth country, in your posts.....perhaps THAT goes towards explaining your willingness to meet the extra out of pocket expenses (that) you have so graciously dismissed with "...a very small catering bill, which I certainly don't mind kicking in for."
Your obvious knowledge of that unique aviation employee psyche of ALWAYS looking for a "free feed" (but happy to donate mercilessly to less fortunates) is evident.

If you don't mind - at the risk of being boringly repetitive - may I ask, again, "Besides Dick Smith, WHO are the other major players you can guarantee will be there?"

[DirtyPierre]

Tobzalp,

Maaaate! You should go. You and I worked on LAMP and Resectorisation together. With your knowledge and experience, plus your outstanding wit and forthrightness, you would be a good contributor.

Plus if you take the cheese and kisses for a weekend away in Syd-a-ney, she'll think you're the bees knees.

Take the board and get a surf in at Fairybower.

DP

[tobzalp]

Heh DP, thanks for the thoughts but Mrs Topbzalp is walking around with 9 months of baby that is itching to get out and continue the fight!

[Chris Higgins]

Todzalp, only because it's relevant, check out my wife's website www.mommygear.com I can bring over some stuff for you in August if you want mate!

Kaptin M

Unfortunately, in compliance with the rules of this forum, and the word I have given these participants, I am unable to disclose the identities of those attending The Bondi Beach Project. You'll just have to show up.

Best regards,

Chris

[email protected]

0011.1.724.493.0000

[Icarus2001]

Chris Higgins, hello again. I will ignore the insults you choose to throw at me rather then dicussing the issue. Interesting this is a trait you seem to share with Dick Smith.
I note that you assume I am male with young children and I struggle financially as an instructor. Sorry, wrong, your psychic powers have deserted you.

Anyway, the reason for my post is that I am trying to reconcile these statements made by you...
Unfortunately, in compliance with the rules of this forum, and the word I have given these participants, I am unable to disclose the identities of those attending The Bondi Beach Project. You'll just have to show up. As for the major players, don't worry they're coming! In the interests of decorum, only those participants that want their names listed on the docket should be allowed to present their information. So I guess you want people to show up wearing masks too, huh?

So how are these major players to remain anonymous in a room full of people? Or do they intend to reveal their identity on the day?

My point about Dick is that if any AsA or CASA staff turn up to voice an opinion, his track record shows that he will make their professional lives uncomforatble.

I agree with your decision to let Dick speak first but I do not believe he has anything to add to the many pages he has written in debate with VoR. Do you? I mean Dick's position is well known. Did you fully read (and comprehend) the debate thread? Dick has not been able to satisfactorily answer most of the points raised by VoR. If he cannot do this in a bulletin board forum with plenty of time to research and consider his aswer how on earth can he be expected to do that on the spot in front of a crowd?

Once again let me point out that the professionals are now running airspace in Australia once again. As you are overseas you may be unaware that the frequency boundaries that NASIG/ARG had removed from the ERC/VNC/VTC have now been placed on a new chart and posted to all pilots. This is an example of AsA fixing the holes in "a proven system", at great expense I might add.

Have you had an opportunity to peruse the RAPAC material?

[Chris Higgins]

Icarus I do not claim to be psychic or claim to know who you are...or remotely understand where you're coming from, but I'll try and answer your questions.

1. Yes, you'll have to show up on the day at the meeting for any attendees present to identify themselves, then and there.

2. Unless you have won the Lotto or fly drugs at night, you are not rich from flight instructing or doing anything in G/A. Not really a psychic assumption, just a statement of observation of anyone I've met in G/A since 1983.

3. If you do, in fact, fly 747s on your spare weekends, you will agree that this experience allows a great deal of positive transfer back to abinitio instructing. I have found it so. If you don't fly as a commercial jet pilot, I hope that one day you will. It's really fun!

4. No, I have not read that report. I will be moderating a meeting between industry leaders that have different points of view. I will not be delivering a sermon...or "saving Mexicans", like in some Clint Eastwood movie either!

You seem quite angry, I hope you find happiness as I have.

[tobzalp]

industry leaders



I don't want names, but I would like to know the facets of the industry that will be represented. Pilots and ATC don't cut it. I mean AsA, CASA etc. Are these 'big guns' represented by people with the say so? Homey don't think so.

[Chris Higgins]

Todzalp, you have a relevant point. I do not know how I can reveal titles, without also revealing names by default.

Woomera has sent me an e-mail expressing his concern about divulging peoples identities on a private forum.

I consider myself a guest, so I will be abiding by the spirit of the Woomera Tribe!

[Chris Higgins]

The Bondi Beach Project

What? An informal meeting about NAS and the latest proposed reforms. Interpretations of the changes from Dick Smith and other industry representatives. A lively discussion with questions directed through the moderator from the audience.

Where? Circular Quay Marriott. At the moment, we have The Thomas Keneally conference room. It is set up for 65 people in theatre style seating.

When? August 10, 2004. Meeting starts at 10:00 am, but you can come in and set-up any kind of presentation material or posters about an hour before.

Why? Good question. It's neither a sanctioned meeting with any authority, nor does it have a predefined goal, so why have it?

The reason for this informal discussion is that the pages of PPrune have provided us with excellent material to learn about the confusion surrounding NAS implementation and the many shortfalls in understanding what may have been detrimental to safety. The added advantage of interaction allows us to rephrase questions, see body language and assess sincerity in the recipient. We are unfortunate that even as good as PPrune is, this is the one way it does have a limitation. It is simply time for us to move this discussion into a truly open forum, and learn what we can about reform.

Light refreshments and a snack will be served at half-time.

Please RSVP numbers.

Please inform me as to what audio visual aids you will be requiring.

Please inform me of any food allergies or any special dietary requirements.

Thank you all for your time and the many loooonnng e-mails!

Let's set a deadline for all information to be received by July 15th.

Sincerely,

Chris Higgins

[email protected]

0011.1.724.493.0000

[Chris Higgins]

We could also use some more people from the recreational side of aviation....SAAA (EAA), AUF, parachuting, gliding. I would really like to see some communication from these groups as well.

[Chris Higgins]

Thanks to all for your continuing support of The Bondi Beach Project- A discussion of Australian Airspace.

Can someone please get me a contact name and e-mail address for:

1. SAAA or EAA representatives

2. Any nationally recognised body, representing flying instructors, the Yanks have NAFI.

3. Contollers Association.

4. Airline unions.

5. Ultralights

6. Gliders

7. Parachutists


In addition, could someone tell me how to get hold of Steve Creedy. He used to work in Pittsburgh and is now at The Australian. Anyone know his e-mail? Direct contact?

Thanks to all!

Chris Higgins

[email protected]

724.493.0000

[Chris Higgins]

It seems that there are quite a few that would like to come, but can't be sure of their schedules just yet. So I propose a slight change.

No RSVP required!

The conference will be open style seating with no food, to save on expense.

Same time, same place!

Hope you can make it.

Chris

[Adamastor]

Chris,

Can I ask how you plan to act as an unbiased mediator when your recent comments on other threads seem to indicate an unmitigated distrust/hatred of Australian ATCs and simultaneous support for Dick Smith which borders on sycophancy?

[Chris Higgins]

Yes, you can ask any question you want. Basically, I have no objection to any kind of debate on these forums.

I am not in support of Dick Smith flying a single engine aircraft all the way from Lord Howe and I'm also not in favour of turning PPrune into a shooting gallery for cowards!

His questions deserved a professional reply. To date, I haven't seen one on that forum.

You want to keep the lid shut on World's Worst? I think he should be given enough rope to hang himself, without any help from the moderator. If he doesn't do that, shouldn't we question if there might be some truth to his statements? You say there is none? Okay, then answer some of his questions about pay-scale and "events" involving controller performance.

Is it true that Bernie Smith, CEO of Air Services Australia, earns more than twice as much as the Australian Prime Minister?

How the hell is a flight school operator with a bunch of Cessna 150s supposed to afford his charges and those of CASA?

Adamastor, Todzalp and others, if you want to prevent a balance to these discussions and answer some of these questions, you'd better show up!

[tobzalp]

Dude, in case you missed it, I am bashing bamboo under my finger nails that day. I am somewhat confused as to how you think ATC pay scales are a topic for discussion at this little whinge fest of yours. I take it pilot, hostie, engineer, baggage handlers, Airline exec, Airport landing fees, maitenence etc are just as high a priority? I assume that you will be listing other individuals that fit the mentioned categories and have them 'explain' themselves in the interest of furthering you non biased facilitator status? Didn't think so.

By these Snarek/BIK clones coming up with their allegations and bringing the conversation towards a direct attack on the one group actively trying to do something about this mess for absolutely no personal gain, it shows us the type of person (LOOSE USAGE) that we unfortunately have way too many of in this industry. Incidentally I actually earned less than my base salary (as it stands now) last financial year. There you go. Question answered. The day that you and your buddies want to start pissing into the wind by starting up a 'ATC/Pilots/Execs' are over paid arguments shows me and all others that you are irrelevant to airspace safety and should do the public the courtesy of staying out of this.

Bout time you stayed out of this. It is tiring me pointing out lack of intelligence (not a snipe but an actual observation) as post after post you throw up things that make me cringe on your behalf and you are the least qualified through your own admissions to be involved here.

[Chris Higgins]

Tobzalp,

This website is open to all users. This is not a beauty pagaent and I am not competing for Miss Congeniality.

Your insulting behavior to other users and common uses of denegrating toilet wall scribbling leads me to believe that you must have had a very lonely childhood.

I had to laugh at you on another post when you called the second richest man in the world a "dumb Yank".

No doubt you will use this opportunity to plagarize someone elses artististic expression again and add to it your vandalism, believing it represents a pearl of wisdom.

No, I will not leave this forum to you and your cronies, who can only give and not take!

[tobzalp]

Ho hum. Seriously, you don't listen do you (nor, it appears, can you read. My user name is right there on the screen and you cannot tell the difference between b and d). You start a thread about some impartial airspace debate, throw down some challenges, swear that it will be a free for all, tell us all the no matter what Dick Smith will be the first speaker, constantly tell us your position with regard to your agenda and bias, make no qualms about what you think of certain groups in the indusrty and then expect us to take you seriously. I for one do not care what you think of my stance. It is of no consequence. When you cannot argue your side with cold facts, just like Dick Smith cannot, your inconsistencies and lack of understanding must be pointed out. My cronies and I will not stop until this mess is fixed and your suggestion is not a tool to do so. Deal with it.

[Chris Higgins]

I am dealing with all of this perfectly fine thank you. In fact, as a person who has no financial interest or political affiliation, I am enjoying it quite a lot.

Patriotism can be shown in many ways. I have quite a lot of money invested in Australia. I have a wealth of friends there from my old days in The Hastings State Emergency Services and the Port Macquarie Flynn's Beach Surf Life Saving. I always drop by the motorcycle shop that sponsored my racing as a teenager and stay on the farm West of Wauchope where I was raised.

Tobzalp, you have shown a great deal of attitude against all things American, yet you use quite a lot of American slang and colloaquialisms. My Dick Smith Electronics Crystal Ball tells me you probably have a post 1971 birthdate, (homey??). If so, I question where you went to University to obtain a tertiary qualification that makes judgements about a person's intelligence.

As someone who does have a Bachelor of Science Degree, who learned to fly in Australia, who has repetitively been, "held in the Manly area", (don't you just love that when it's a female controller!) and flown all around the world: yes I am qualified to make a comparison about Oystraya and Ummerica.

I don't know whether to think that a Yank on exchange stole your first love or whether you were told to beat it by an American girl you thought attractive...maybe you're just a pathetic public servant who likes to keep things easy. My crystal ball is old and it gets a little fuzzy.


But...this I will say!

If you truly have a cure for the Australian Airspace debacle.

If you can truly get all factions of gov't and industry dancing from the same sheet of music.

If you can make it fun and affordable for a kid to learn to fly.

If you can honestly restore the public's faith in our industry.

If you can improve on an excellent, but not perfect, industry safety record...

Then I and probably even your nemesis Dick Smith will make sure you are knighted by the Queen!


Goodnight guy!

and I'll even call you Tobzalp if you like...from planet where?!

[tobzalp]

Goodness me, that is some excellent debate there. See my previous postings. There is nothing new to add.

[Chris Higgins]

Then I will bid you fairwell Sir, and see everyone else at The Bondi Beach Project, Marriot Circular Quay, August 10th!

[Uncommon Sense]

Chris,

Can you just clarify the aim or objective of this meeting.

What do you expect to walk away with at the end of the day - and who are you going to give it to - and how are they going to implement it - and how will it be seen to be impartial and completely inclusive?

I am taking no sides - I am intrigued nonetheless.

I am rostered for 16 hours of Air traffic control in that 24 hour period - so lets nobody talk about underworked overpaid ATC's when I can't turn up to argue the point okay!

(If you get bored you might like to discuss the fatigue factor in the 15th or 16th hour of a controller doing that job looking after your flight and the fact there are NO required breaks in Australia for ATC)

[Chris Higgins]

Uncommon Sense

I completely understand where you stand on fatigue. When I was in New York we were flying scheduled reg's and we were all told, "legal to start, legal to finish".

We actually had a crew that had been on duty 19 hours during the blizzard of 1996, where they found themselves deiced twice before each take-off and nine hours behind schedule!

Simply put, we had to have a "safety day". Some crews were admitting to falling asleep on taxiways and others in flight. We found rooms at an airport hotel and sent most of them packing and cancelled a bunch of flights. The chief pilot privately thanked me, believing his position might have been in jeopardy by initiating such a move.

This is the way of the industry right now and the only way to prevent these happenings is a strong cohesive union that sets it's own safety standards above the minimums required by law.

By our own contract, we can't be scheduled over twelve hours in a twenty-four, but we can elect to extend to fourteen. We purposely left the two hours to anticipate delays, so that the company could arrange a backup. Again, this is better than the FAR minimums, but it would not have been achieved without solidarity.

To answer your questions about the aims of the meeting, you need only look at the above areas of the thread to find out that it's a discussion about airspace, pure and simple.

It has no regulatory ties. It's purpose is merely to hear what various representatives have to say about what Australia needs to do in order to represent the highest levels of airspace safety.

You do not need to be defensive about ATC salaries. If the scales recently sent to me are representative of the true scales, I think that it's reprehensible that they should be so low, when management is making so much .

I worked with the pilot controller liaison for NATCO quite a lot back in the 90's...this may surprise you, but most controllers I deal with actually like me! I drink beer with them in Atlantic City all the time.

[gaunty]

Chris Higgins

It has no regulatory ties. It's purpose is merely to hear what various representatives have to say about what Australia needs to do in order to represent the highest levels of airspace safety.

With respect we've been there done that.

I can only applaud your enthusiasm your motives remain "on trial" so to speak, but apart from "barking the cat up the tree" what is to be achieved apart form feeding some already large egos.

The public are already confused as hell, the professionals have already retaken the agenda from the zealots and are now working hard to contain the damage wrought.

It's about the professionals directly involved from Government and regulators talking to their professionalpeers in the industry and working it out together.
The Minister has wisely flicked it to where it always belonged, DOTARS and Airservices with some very specific directions.
DOTARS is chockfull of competent people.

I do not believe your meeting will reveal anything that is not comprehensively known by all, including who makes the most noise.

[Woomera]

This thread has run it's course, we do hope you find what you are looking for and now it's time to move on people.

We would all welcome a report on the meeting, but will not, unless something entirely fresh and new comes out of it, entertain a rehash of the recent discussion, or a he said, I said, I think we all now know pretty much how who feels about what.

Fresh and new = one side or the other either substantially changes or recants their personal positions. If this does not occur, we are no further forward or the world has moved on.

We have been pleased to host the debate and provide the opportunity for everyone to be heard

We must, however, make it absolutely and unequivocally clear, PPRuNe does not take a position on this particular subject by supporting one side or the other beyond providing the forum for discussion.

The public use of PPRuNes name or reference to PPRuNe in the media or any public forum as;
a supporter of any position;
or outcome from either side at this meeting,
and;
other than an acknowledgement by all parties

"that the facilitation of the meeting is being provided by this forum in the public interest ,

will not be tolerated.

It is not within our ambit or claim to so do unless expressly agreed and authorised by admin.