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yintsinmerite
17th Jun 2004, 15:45
Am suffering brain fade today with no books to hand. Can anyone remind me of the dimentions of a Purple Airway ?

Thanks

SwanFIS
17th Jun 2004, 17:03
A rolling purple airway around a royal flt is no longer used. NOTAMed class A is the way it is done now.

IRRenewal
17th Jun 2004, 21:08
Significance to GA being that purple airspace only applied to military A/C, but NOTAMed class A applies to all of us. Beware!

Chilli Monster
17th Jun 2004, 22:40
Significance to GA being that purple airspace only applied to military A/C, but NOTAMed class A applies to all of us
No - Purple Airspace applied to everyone too - it was effectively CAS within an airway or CAS adjoining the airway established when required. It was done away with because it was really a pointless way of expressing the airspace (Class 'A' inside class 'A' doesn't really make sense - and the separation standards applied were the same).

I think you might be confusing it with a 'Royal Low Level Corridor' which still gets established for Royal Helicopter Flights. Military are to avoid, civil are requested to keep a good look out.

(I always thought it funny that PPL's were trusted and yet those highly trained takers of the Queens shilling weren't :D )

WorkingHard
18th Jun 2004, 05:47
What's the benefit and for whom? Archaic nonsense?

Whipping Boy's SATCO
18th Jun 2004, 08:26
IRRenewal - you quote yourself as an examiner and instructor. I am somewhat concerned that one with such credentials misunderstood the previous regulations.

Big Hilly
18th Jun 2004, 09:06
Workinghard,What's the benefit and for whom? Archaic nonsense? Archaic nonsense? Not at all.

The benefits, I would have thought, are obvious: For centuries, people from all over the world have been trying to kill the British Monarchy. Purple airspace, and the new system simply stop Joe Bloggs from doing the job for them by accidentally bumping into them in his microlight. . . .

Best wishes,

Big Hilly

IO540
18th Jun 2004, 09:27
Surely telling everybody where the VIP will be, in the air, during certain hours makes it much easier for someone to do a deliberate interception, perhaps with a suicide attack. This is probably the main reason why purple airways were done away with.

Statistically, it is just about impossible to have a mid-air, en-route, by accident. I know this sentence is going to get some people going but before they do, can they please get some supporting data.

Big Hilly
18th Jun 2004, 09:45
IO540,Statistically, it is just about impossible to have a mid-air, en-route, by accident. I know this sentence is going to get some people going but before they do, can they please get some supporting data. Umm. . . . off the top of my head. . . . HERE? (http://www.bfu-web.de/berichte/02_ax001efr.pdf)

Best wishes,

BH

boomerangben
18th Jun 2004, 09:48
I was caught out one day trying to get into the heliroutes one day. Checked notams and indeed there was a royal helicopter flight taking place. I took off, saw the royal flight and avoided it. But when I tried to get into the London zone, clearance was denied owing to priority traffic. This I though was little strange I had just flown around a member of the Royal Family using the Rainbow callsign (senior member of the family I think)

It all became clear when an american accent came on the radio claiming to be Marine 01. Six helicopters one of which had Bill Clinton onboard. He wasn't even the president (Geo W. had just taken over). Sick. Why do the Americans come over here and just ignore our system? So we followed them for a while. That annoyed them!

IO540
18th Jun 2004, 09:59
BH

I don't think that one was exactly en-route, and it is outside the context of GA accidentally hitting another aircraft.

Big Hilly
18th Jun 2004, 10:05
IO540I don't think that one was exactly en-route It doesn't get much more en-route than that, mate! and it is outside the context of GA accidentally hitting another aircraft. Ah, I see. . . . You mean something like THIS? (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_502737.hcsp)

BH

Whipping Boy's SATCO
18th Jun 2004, 10:39
ICAO Doc 9613

En Route Operations. Operations conducted on published air routes, direct point to point operations between defined way-points or along great circle routes which are other than take-off, landing, departure, arrival or terminal operations.

yintsinmerite
18th Jun 2004, 12:07
oh heck - I need to get a revised air law book !!!Q:\

Ok, anyway, can someone remind me what the dimentions of a purple airway used to be ?

Big Hilly
18th Jun 2004, 13:00
yintsinmerite,

All you could ever wish to know about Royal Flight procedures ;) :

1 Introduction
1.1 A Royal Flight within UK airspace is defined as the movement of an aircraft specifically
tasked to carry one or more of the following members of The Royal Family:
• Her Majesty The Queen
• His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
• His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales
• His Royal Highness The Duke of York
• His Royal Highness The Earl of Wessex
• Her Royal Highness The Countess of Wessex
• Her Royal Highness The Princess Royal
1.2 Flights within UK airspace by other members of the Royal Family, other reigning
Sovereigns, Prime Ministers and Heads of State of Commonwealth and foreign
countries, may also be afforded Royal Flight status by the CAA.
2 Procedures for Royal Flights in Fixed-wing Aircraft
2.1 Establishment of Temporary Class A/B Controlled Airspace (CAS-T)
2.1.1 Royal Flights in fixed-wing aircraft are, whenever possible, to take place within the
national ATS route structure. Standard ATC procedures shall be applied to Royal
Flights when operating in Class A and Class B airspace. In all other instances, the
airspace around the route will be designated CAS-T.
2.1.2 CAS-T of appropriate dimensions will be established to encompass any portion of the
track and flight level of the Royal aircraft, which lies outside of permanent Class A/B
airspace. Control Zones and Control Areas will be established around all airfields used
for the departure or arrival of a Royal Flight.
2.1.3 Regardless of the prevailing meteorological conditions, aircraft may only fly within
CAS-T when an ATC clearance has been obtained from the controlling authorities
specified in the following sub-paras:
a) Temporary Control Zones. Temporary Control Zones will be established around
airfields of departure and destination where no permanent control zones exist.
Control Zones for Royal Flights will normally extend for 10 nm radius from the
centre of the airfield from ground level to a flight level designated for each Royal
Flight. The Control Zone will be established for a period (for outbound flights) of
15 minutes before, until 30 minutes after, the ETD of the Royal aircraft or (for
inbound flights) for a period of 15 minutes before, until 30 minutes after, the ETA
of the Royal aircraft at the airfield concerned, based on planned times. Overall
control of these Control Zones is to be exercised, as appropriate, by the
Commanding Officer of a military airfield or the ATS authority of a civil airfield
b) Temporary Control Areas. Temporary Control Areas will be established to meet
the specific requirements of a Royal Flight. The lateral and vertical limits, the
duration and the controlling authority of such areas will be promulgated via
NOTAM. The controlling authority will be the appropriate civil ACC.
c) Permanent Control Zones and Areas. The controlling authority will be the
designated controlling authority for the Permanent Zone or Area and the duration
will be as laid down in sub paras 2.1.3 (a) and (b). Where an airfield has its own
Control Zone, then the requirement to establish a Temporary Control Zone of the
dimensions specified in para 2.1.3 (a) may be waived.
d) Temporary Controlled Airways. Temporary Controlled Airways will be established
to join temporary or permanent Control Zones or Control Areas, as appropriate, for
15 minutes before ETD at the departure airfield until 30 minutes after ETA at the
destination. The lateral dimensions of such airways will be 5 nm each side of the
intended track of the Royal Flight and vertical limits will be designated. The
controlling authority will be the appropriate civil ACC.
2.1.4 A Temporary Control Zone or Area may be cancelled at the discretion of the Military
Commander or Civil ATC Supervisor, as appropriate, when the Royal aircraft has left
the zone or area and is established en-route in a Temporary Controlled Airway,
permanent Class A/B airspace, or has landed.
2.1.5 Training flights, including parachute training flights, by any member of The Royal
Family, which are planned and carried out under VFR or IFR, under the control of a
radar equipped air traffic control unit will normally be classified as Royal Flights.
When a member of the Royal Family intends to carry out flying training at RAF or civil
airfields, CAS-T, if required, is to be established as agreed by the aircraft operating
organisation and AUS to cover the activity. .
2.2 Procedures Applicable to Royal Flight CAS-T
2.2.1 CAS-T will normally be notified as Class A airspace for the purpose of the Rules of the
Air Regulations 1996.
2.2.2 CAS-T not already notified under Rule 21 of the Rules of the Air Regulations 1996, is
notified for the purpose of Rule 21 and IFR applies at all times.
2.2.3 CAS-T established outside of existing Class A/B airspace, is notified respectively as
either Control Zones or Control Areas (as appropriate) as defined in Article 129(1) of
the Air Navigation Order 2000.
2.2.4 Gliders shall not fly in CAS-T.
2.3 Radar Control Service
2.3.1 Civil radar units shall provide, subject to radar coverage, the Radar Control service enroute
for all Royal flights. A supplementary radar service will be provided by military
radar units outside the coverage of the civil units. Transfer of control from civil radar
units to military units, and vice versa, is to be by radar handover.
2.3.2 The provision of the supplementary radar service is determined by the civil ACC and
AUS informs AIS (Military) West Drayton of the requirements. If notification of a Royal
flight is received at such a time that headquarters staff would not be able to make the
arrangements during office hours (e.g. a signal received 1900 hours on Friday for a
flight on Sunday) the watch supervisor at the civil ACC of the FIR in which the flight
originates shall, in consultation with AIS (Military) West Drayton, ensure that a
supplementary radar service is provided.

2.4 Unknown Aircraft
The action to be taken by controllers to avoid unknown aircraft is detailed below:
3 Promulgation of Royal Flight Information
Dissemination of information concerning a Royal Flight is made via a Notification
Message on a Royal Flight Collective, giving full flight details. Information on the
establishment of CAS-T, including vertical limits, is promulgated by NOTAM.
4 Royal Flight Callsigns
The Flight plan identification and the radiotelephony designators for flights flown in
aircraft of No. 32 (The Royal) Squadron, the Queen’s Helicopter Flight (TQHF) or in
civilian chartered aircraft are contained in the UK AIP, En Route (ENR) Section.
5 Royal Flights in Helicopters
5.1 CAS-T is not normally established for Royal Flights in helicopters. Normal air traffic
control procedures apply to a Royal helicopter within, or wishing to join, controlled
airspace. For Royal helicopter flights outside controlled airspace, a Royal Low Level
Corridor will be promulgated by NOTAM. (Details of this are contained in the UK AIP,
En Route (ENR) Section.)
5.2 Selected Helicopter Flights
Selected Helicopter Flights are flights carrying members of The Royal Family other
than those listed in paragraph 1, or other VVIPs. The routes and timings of these
flights, together with preferred Delegated Air Traffic Service Units in each of the
Safeguard Areas affected by the helicopter’s routes, will be promulgated by West
Drayton AIS (Military) as information to all Safeguard Units, Delegated Units and
military flying units.
Type of Airspace Action to be taken by Controller
CAS-T established: Neither avoiding action nor traffic information shall
be passed unless radar derived or other
information indicates that an aircraft is lost, has
experienced a radio failure, or has made an
unauthorised penetration of the airspace.
(a) within permanent controlled
airspace other than Class A
and Class B
(b) outside permanent controlled
airspace above FL 100
CAS-T established outside
permanent controlled airspace at or
below FL 100
Whenever practicable, pass traffic information.
Give avoiding action if considered necessary or if
requested by the pilot (where possible according
to the Rules of the Air).
It is recognised that, because of the sudden
appearance of unknown aircraft and the difficulty in
predicting changes in flight path, it is not always
possible to provide the standard radar separation.

5.3 SSR Code
SSR Mode A Code 0037 has been allocated for the exclusive use of helicopters
engaged on Royal Flights and Mode A Code 0035 has been allocated for Selected
Helicopter Flights. These codes will be displayed from take-off to landing, whether or
not a radar service is being provided.
6 Diversions
The operational control of Royal aircraft of 32 (The Royal) Squadron is vested in the
RAF and diversions must be authorised by the RAF Distress and Diversion Cells. The
pilot, however, retains authority to deviate from flight plan if he thinks it necessary.
The operational control of civilian chartered aircraft being used for a Royal flight
remains with the company and diversions will be arranged in accordance with normal
civil practices.
7 Incidents Involving Royal Flights
When an ATSU receives information that a Royal flight has been involved in an
incident giving rise to public comment, the senior controller is to pass the details
immediately to the parent ACC.


Best wishes,
BH

Evo
18th Jun 2004, 13:07
Statistically, it is just about impossible to have a mid-air, en-route, by accident. I know this sentence is going to get some people going but before they do, can they please get some supporting data.


There's this one (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_501737.hcsp). :(

IO540
18th Jun 2004, 13:59
I said it would get a few people going...

Let's take this last report, dated 1996.

What we now need, for a sense of perspective on the numbers, is a post from each pilot who has flown since 1996, and arrived without coming close to anything :O

(and do remember that if you saw another aircraft en-route, it was highly unlikely to have been on a true collission course)

Big Hilly
18th Jun 2004, 14:12
IO540, What we now need, for a sense of perspective on the numbers, is a post from each pilot who has flown since 1996, and arrived without coming close to anything You've obviously never been over Sevenoaks on a busy Sunday afternoon. ;)

Back to the original point though; I assume that you can now see that it's far from Statistically, just about impossible to have a mid-air, en-route, by accident and it is for this very reason alone that the 'Belt and Braces' philosophy of Purple/CAS-T exists in order to protect the Royals.

Workingboy, asked the question whether it is ‘archaic nonsense’? People often ask the same question about the guards outside Buckingham Palace. But don’t forget, that apart from giving the American tourists something to write home about, those same guards are carrying SA-80’s with live rounds inside them and are fully prepared to use them if needs be. . . . .

All the best,

BH

yintsinmerite
23rd Jun 2004, 12:06
Eee heck

Thanks Big Hilly - I asked the question and I got more than I ever dreamed of.

I hope I am not going to be tested ?