A pipedream...?

[tmmorris]

I have this pipedream which won't go away...

I teach at a boys' independent school. We have an active CCF(RAF) section, and an excellent DT department. Two of the teachers are pilots (including me).

My dream goes as follows:

With sponsorship money, perhaps from old boys, we buy and build a kit plane, using the DT department's expertise (glass fibre, for example, no problem). We could perhaps involve the local ATC squadron as well. We keep the plane at the local VGS (known to be friendly) and operate it from there. One or both of the pilots on the staff does an FI rating; we teach the boys and the ATC cadets to fly, so they can leave school not only with academic qualifications but with a pilot's licence. The running costs of the plane are helped by the fact that the two pilots on the staff use this plane for their regular flying, keeping the hours up and contributing to the costs.

Now for the reality - which is lots of questions:

(a) can an organisation own and operate a PFA permit aircraft? The school is a charity but also has non-charitable subsidiary companies, any of which could also own the aircraft.
(b) if (a), then can employees/pupils of the organisation be trained in the aircraft, or do they fall foul of the 100% ownership rule?
(c) can employees/pupils of the organisation buy hours from the organisation, or is that renting?
(d) can training take place in that way, or would we have to become an approved FTO? (the VGS is based at a Government aerodrome).

I know of the ATC project to build a plane - and they have obviously concluded that once they have built it they can't operate it but will have to sell it.

Any thoughts most welcome.

Tim

[treadigraph]

Probably of little help to you but I know of two School projects:

Truro School built an Evans VP-2 in the late 1970s which certainly flew.

At my Alma Mater, King Edwards Witley, in 1981/82 several of my peers were starting construction of a canard light plane called the Kestrel as part of an A Level course. IIRC, this had been designed by one of the masters as part of his course at Cranfield IT. Don't think it was ever completed let alone flew...

[Genghis the Engineer]

(a) Yes.
(b) No, ownership rules apply.
(c) No they can't, but if - say - it was run (in law) as a syndicate of the registered pilots, the pupils could cost-share at 50% of the total cost.
(d) 100% ownership rules problems again.

To build and run a permit aircraft (PFA or BMAA) would (legally speaking) be pretty straightforward, you just can't use it as training hours, and the P1 has to pay their share of the running costs. You are in Oxford - both organisations are within a 30 minute drive of you, why not arrange to go and see them.

Incidentally, I'd stick with something simple, no matter how good the DT dept. - a Skyranger, Escapade, Savannah or Rans are all sub-500hr kits and would probably all do the job well. Organising a lot of people, even well disciplined schoolboys, for a project like this is rather like herding cats, and you want to make life as easy for you as possible.



For training you need a CofA (but can use a government aerodrome instead of a civil licensed one), you don't for FW a/c need to be an FTO. So, for your particular pipedream you might be far better off buying a wreck which had a CofA, and rebuilding it back to CofA standard. Alternatively do something similar with a Type Approved microlight, which gets you off a lot of expensive hooks (licensed airfield, LAME to sign off the rebuild, requirement for certified engine and instruments, etc.) and allow loggable training hours, although will add the extra cost of getting your "staff" FI rated to teach on microlights.

G

[ACW 335]

The ATC can own and operate an aircraft - a local SQN to me has a motor glider which they use to give cadets extra flying time.
The ATC is also a charity.
To operate out of Abingdon (i assume from your location,which is 612VS) you would need Crown Indemnity on your aircraft to fly it out of Abingdon.
Where my VGS is based, we have a chap who keeps his condor there and all his mates come and fly it - I don't think you need to become an FTO...but don't quote me! Non of his mates are military.

[MLS-12D]

There will be many who tell you that your dream is impossible, or virtually impossible, or at least far more trouble to arrange than it can possibly be worth.

The truth is that where there is a will, there is (almost) always a way. However, only you can decide whether this project is sufficiently important for you to devote all of your energies towards overcoming the various obstacles.

[Monocock]

Although I do not know the ins and outs of the legalities of what you are proposing I would like to wish you the very best of British luck with your wonderful idea.

If it all comes off it would be a great achievement for the students, yourselves and the school.

Keep us informed!:ok:

[tmmorris]

Many thanks for replies, both useful and supportive, so far.

Very interested in the microlight idea - how do I find out about type approved microlights? Are there 3-axis ones we could build, for example? Would still aim to keep it at the VGS (no names as I haven't asked them yet, but guesses are not far out :-) as this is our nearest airfield anyway, licensed or not.

Tim

[ChrisVJ]

It seems so many years ago:

Our math master, Peter Corlett had a Chipmunk, he used to let us take it home on Sundays, there were seven or eight pilots in the school. That was in Oxford, flew from Kidlington. Oh yes, we used to contribute 3.00 GBP per hour!

I was also able to 'Borrow' the plane and hire an instructor to get my conversion off theColt, helped a bit I had done 14 hours with the UAS at Summer camps.

Don't know about the regs today but is there anything to stop a person borrowing a privately owned plane and hiring an instructor? Seems to me if you make no more of a contribution than actual immediate running costs (ie, not 'hiring') and students might have to arrange insurance extension........

I'd echo the sentiment, build something simple, preferably aluminium and reasonably robust.

Suppose you are not at that establishment on the Banbury Road?

[Pilotage]

There are three basic flavours of microlight aeroplane, "Type Approved", "Type Accepted" and "Amateur Built". The reason for these designations is that the three classes of aircraft were built under different arrangements, specifically:-

- Type Approved aircraft were built by a CAA approved factory, and fully comply with the CAA safety standards at that time (usually a document called "BCAR Section S".

- Type Accepted aircraft existed before Section S came into being, but have been allowed to continue flying on the basis of partial compliance with Section S, plus a reasonable record of safe operating experience.

- Amateur Built aircraft have been built by an individual or group for their own interest and education under supervision of a BMAA or PFA inspector. For a BMAA administered aircraft they have to have also shown full compliance with Section S, PFA tend to disregard the requirements for performance measurement and an approved operators manual, but otherwise also show full compliance with all the structural and handling bits.


So a type approved aircraft shows the highest available safety standards in microlights, and therefore is allowed to be used for flying training towards the NPPL(M) (whilst the other two classes are restricted to training of the sole owner, or members of their immediate family).


There used to be something called an "A1 kit" where you could semi-amateur build a type-approved microlight, but with direct factory control over your work. These haven't existed for a few years in the 3-axis world, so for your purposes what you're looking for isn't a new build, it's a rebuild - and there aren't any rules as to the extent of that rebuild, the aircraft could have been crashed (I did one of those once, took me 2 years), or have been rotting in a barn whilst used as a chicken shed for 5 years - so from an interest viewpoint for your school it'd all be there.

Types, here's a list (you can verify this on the BMAA's website, I've ignored any single seaters since although you can technically teach somebody to fly that way, it's regarded as a bit old fashioned - everything's nosewheel unless I've said otherwise)...


- Bantam B22s (rare open sided rag and tube with flaperons)

- All Shadows except the Streak versions, and the odd homebuilt D-series. (Shadow Flight Centre at Old Sarum should know if there are any bent ones out there going cheap)

- Thruster TST Mk.1 (basic side-by-side very slow taildragger, open sided. I'm flying a rebuilt one in Hampshire you'd be welcome to come down and look at and have a go in should you wish).

- Chevvron 2-32c (sort of lightweight Vigilant T1).

- Spectrum T1 (tandem twin stick, metal tube fuselage, composite wing, this might be a very good choice).

- Thruster T300 (slightly improved TST)

- Mignet Balerit (actually 2-axis control, and somewhat unconventional, but very safe, you can teach the 3-axis syllabus in it - but very rare, you'd probably struggle to get one)

- Thruster T600T (much improved TST)

- Thruster T600N (T600T with a nosewheel instead of nosewheel)

- AX3 and AX2000 (basically the microlight equivalent of a C150 and C152 respectively, cheap, slow, rugged, safe, easy to teach in - but very ugly and not all that much fun for an experienced pilot)

- CT, Eurostar, C42 (ignoring the amateur built Eurostar and C42) - gorgeous high performance 2-seaters, but too new and expensive, the odds of finding a project are probably very slim.


My recommendation would be to look for an elderly or bent Shadow or Spectrum, either of which should be fairly easy to track down, and will be a good solid rebuild project that you can really get your teeth into, and both of which are great training aeroplanes (as well as being Tandem, which goes down well in the military environment).

(On the other hand, if you want something to start off with, somebody who is clearly desperate for the money is selling a Thruster TST just up the road from you at £3500 with only 380 hours on it - look at www.afors.co.uk ).

How to find a suitable project? I'd go to the G-INFO website here (http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/aircraft_register/ginfo/search.asp), search on the type that you are interested in but click the "View de-registered aircraft" box. That'll show the machines which haven't been flying for several years, then drop a line to the owners and see what they've got and whether they'll sell it to you. Taking a quick look, that shows a dozen Spectrums (including the one I did my first solo on :{ ) along with 34 Shadows which might potentially be what you're after. There are a couple of Chevvrons there, but it's all composite and you should take advice from the manufacturer (who are just up the road next to Membury mast) as to whether it's feasible to rebuild one.

P

N.B. Shadows come in many flavours. I'd personally go for a CD given a choice, it's got the best combination of available weight, reasonable powerplant, and good handling of the lot. Mind you, that's the best of a good bunch, and there isn't a bad Shadow model.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Bu99er, I thought I understood permit regulations ! However Pilotage, what you didn't do, was show what they look like, so...

G

Shadow CD
http://www.deltabbs.org/images/shadow.jpg

Chevvron 2-32c
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/flylight/images/Misc/chevron.jpg

Spectrum T1.
http://www.btinternet.com/~guy.gratton/Spec2.gif

[FlyingForFun]

Wow, what a fantastic idea! Wish someone had given me that kind of opportunity at school...

From the replies so far, it seems like microlights are the way to go. I don't know too much about microlights, but certainly in the world of aeroplanes, if you or the other teacher-pilot were to get an FI rating, you would need to instruct under the supervision of an unrestricted instructor for your first 100 hours of instruction (which would also have to include 20 supervised solos). What this means in practice is that your first couple of students would have to be taught, by you, at a local school with an understanding CFI. Once you get the restrictions removed from your FI rating, you could instruct unsupervised.

I don't know if there are similar restrictions for micrlight instructors, though.... does anyone else know?

FFF
-------------

[Pilotage]

Yes, pretty much the same - you do the course and get an AFI rating, then after a certain amount of time as an AFI under supervision of an FI, you can apply to upgrade.

That said, I think that there are routes whereby a full light aircraft FI can rate to instruct on microlights without having to go back to AFI again. BMAA should give chapter and verse if asked (01869-338888, ask for Roy Hart), or alternatively Geoff Weighell who runs the school at Enstone is a microlight instructor-examiner, so should know everything there is to know about the rules and regs and might if asked nicely enough be able to help out with FI cover.

P

N.B. Genghis, you missed the type you fly:-

Thruster TST/T300
http://www.micropages.co.uk/library/thrustertst.jpg

Thruster T600 Sprint (the newest version)
http://www.thruster.co.uk/jab5.jpg

[tmmorris]

Thank everyone for exceedingly useful replies. The whole microlight world is new to me - I'm stricly spam-can with a little military thrown in for good measure - so there are a whole world of types out there I've never even heard of, let alone seen (though the Thruster is a familiar sight).

So just to be clear, if we can find a type-approved microlight in poor nick, we can do it up as much as we like and it will still be OK for training for NPPL(M)? Who would inspect/sign off the work - is that a BMAA job? (I need to spend some time on the BMAA website, it seems, particularly to find out how I get an NPPL(M) starting from a JAR PPL(A)...)

And no, definitely NOT the Banbury Road - they have girls there these days, you know...! Rather further south than that.

Probably won't make much progress until the school holidays - the exam season was giving me enough time to start thinking about it again but not actually to do much about it yet. But an excuse to fly in to Old Sarum is always welcome...

Tim

[Pilotage]

Easy one first. If you have a current JAR PPL(A), then you don't need an NPPL(M), all you need to do is complete microlight differences training with a microlight FI who will then sign it off in your logbook. You then need to maintain 5hrs in 13 months microlight currency, with a 13 monthly stamp in your logbook, but that's all.

You can do as much "repair by replacement" and normal reburbishment as you like on the aircraft. If you want to change anything, that has to go through the BMAA for approval, who generally charge £30 a throw for mod approvals but nothing for repair scheme approvals. The work has to be signed off by a BMAA inspector. not a particularly rare beast, particularly in the Midlands.

Once the aircraft's sorted, you're looking at around £80 to a BMAA inspector for the permit renewal, and probably £75 (it varies according to age and weight) to the BMAA. The only other major expense (apart from parts of-course) is that at-least one named owner must be a BMAA member, at about £45pa.

After that if you reckon on that as a recurring annual cost, maybe £100pa in parts, £600pa for full hull, 3rd party and crown indemnity insurance, and about £15/hr for fuel and oil - you are about there. Assuming that you don't pay for hangerage and fly about 100hrs per year with it, that'll come out around £24/hr.

If the instructor is a teacher or VGS instructor doing it for the fun of it, that becomes a fairly inexpensive luxury.

P

[tmmorris]

On G-INFO, am I looking for 'Cancelled by the CAA' or 'Permanently withdrawn from use'... or neither? I seem to remember there is a category 'Cancelled as destroyed'?

I quite fancy a Chevvron but those are the only categories currently de-registered on the G-INFO database.

Tim

[Neil Porter]

tmmorris - in answer to Abingdon, ACM John Allison did base his Miles Gemini there for a few years but from what i am led to believe from the VGS, no privately owned aircraft are allowed to be based in the VGS hangar & ACM Allisons Gemini has since moved to another location - i think its cos sometimes 613VGS operate from Abingdon & so room is needed to put the extra aircraft in......hope that helps..

[Genghis the Engineer]

Incidentally, just spotted on eBay...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2979&item=5502528949&rd=1

http://i21.ebayimg.com/01/i/01/fc/64/8c_1_b.JPG

No bids, but worth it at that price, worth giving the chap a call. (I have nothing to do with it, just wish I had £5k to spare.)

G

[Keef]

I have a sneaking suspicion (no more) that the restriction on learning on a Private Cat or Permit aircraft is to do with the payment of the instructor. If the instructor isn't paid for his efforts, then there may be a way.

You'd need to check the rules on this, but there may be a chink there.

The other suggestion is: talk to the CAA. You're not going to do anything illegal anyway, so have nothing to hide, and may find someone with the knowledge, authority, and inclination to be helpful.

It's a wonderful idea, and I hope it takes wing!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Actually that's a fair point Keef.

The actual rule in the ANO says something along the lines of "only one payment may be made".

So, if the only payment is for use of a syndicated aeroplane, and not a penny goes to the instructor, it is legal. (There is another rule against hiring of a 2-seat aeroplane unless it's on public CofA, so the student would either have to be syndicated, or getting that for free too!).

That said, any such activity needs to be insured, and whilst there are "off the shelf" insurance packages for either type-approved microlights, or public CofA aeroplanes, other combinations may be problematic.

G