Working at Cabair [Archive]

A and C

17th May 2001, 17:49

In a post above it is writen "it depends how much you are prepared to put up with to fly airliners" ,in my opinion this sums up cabair you will be expected to fly with students in weather that makes teaching the execise all most imposable ,deliver aircraft for maintenance while teaching and charging the student for it and all wile the company give you a very raw deal.......you cant give good training under this type managment because your attitude is bound to become clouded and you standard of instruction fall.

instruction should be fun for you and the student if conducted properly ,this is why i still instruct after ten years in the airlines but i will not conduct a training flight for the benifit of the managments pocket and not for the student.

At the end of the day if all you want to do is get a seat in the airlines and dont give a damm how you do it then cabair is the place for you ,most instructors who work for them dont like to do this and so find them selfs in the unhappy situation of being at odds with the management.

cesspit

18th May 2001, 13:43

While I agree with some of the sentiment above, it is important to remember Cabair has many schools, often the schools away from the bosses, i.e. away from Elstree, don't come under this commercial pressure, providing a much more proffesional service to the punters and a more pleasant working environment.

Mr B. Tupp

18th May 2001, 14:17

I never actually worked for Cabair but I do have a mate who recently jacked in the KLM uk deal with them after instructing with them for nearly two years.
He has done his own IR and now has a job with another airline. During his time at Cabair he suffered two paycuts a reduced working week to get round employment rules and minimum wage obligations and very poor morale. I visited him when I was in London doing my MCC and he and his flat mate were facing warrant sales for non paymeny of council tax and their phone had been cut off!
Instructors phoned in sick all the time near the end of each month as it cost them less to not go to work and to top it all off the 'free' IR at the end was done in very minimal hours (I think 7-8 hours was the expected norm).
So yes the lure of a job with KLMuk looked very attractive to my mate in the beginning but two years at the hands of what is, sadly very typical, poor management ruins that illusion.
It does sound very grim from that, but I do know that many people have stuck it out and are now flying with the airline, BUT you must be aware of just how bad things are in the period of time before that happens, rich parents and an understanding bank manager can be helpful but then this is what companies like Cabair rely on so you dont feel that they are not supporting you like a responsible employer should and they can get their pound of flesh out of you whilst other people support you through it!

ECCM

18th May 2001, 14:54

Hey Mr B.Tupp,
that's a pretty bleak picture you've painted. I'm glad your mate has found employment elsewhere though.

The FI's lot does not appear to be a happy one whichever school is chosen, from what I've seen (and see).

Hope you're still enjoying life in the 328.

Honest Frank

18th May 2001, 20:14

Mr Tupp, your friend- was he a scottish lad by any chance. If it was good luck to him in his new company - he deserves it.Who did he get a job with in the end?

Monty Nivo

19th May 2001, 11:09

Well, my experience of Cabair was not that above. It was a few years ago, and I wasn't sponsored, but an experienced QFI with some time on my hands. I was never criticised for turning down the opoortunity to fly if the weather wasn't up to the safe and worthwhile execution of a trip, and I never did any ferrying which a student paid for (and I was working at the two biggest schools they have).

The aircraft were very well kept, by flying school standards, and I also have a very soft spot for the types they used, the AA5 and DV20 being great fun and good training aircraft. The PA28s less so, but at least they have some brand new ones.

What did it do for my career? Well, the large amount of multi-engine (lots of it ferrying) time I built whilst with Cabair was a very good thing, and the IR training which I received (all five and a half hours of it before a first time pass - largely because I was so current on the GA7 from all the ferrying) was of top quality.

The airlines know that Cabair do have high expectations, and expect high standards. If you can put up with a fair amount of moaning and some financial hardship, they are a much better bet than your local 'school-in-a-portacabin'.

KLMuk also share a reputation for excellence in training and operational standards, there is no better airline with whom to start your career.

Whatever you do, all the best.

[This message has been edited by Monty Nivo (edited 19 May 2001).]

Honest Frank

19th May 2001, 14:03

Monty my dear friend-
Of course your were not criticised for flying when the weather was perhaps not "suitable"-More money for the companies pockets and the student wouldn't know the difference anyway.
I remember one day when the cloud base was low. As soon as it "improved" to 500' operations started moaning- go on you can start to get your IMC students in.And this aerodrome without an instrument approach?Yeah right.Or forcing instructors with "i'll ring the CFI and ask him why you won't fly" - when you've got an early student who obviously needs to see some kind of horizon for his/her early details and its a real merky day with not even a haze layer to help. Or a really windy, bumpy day and you're supposed to teach S&L 1.

I witnessed flights to and from maintenance with students paying rather than it be just a ferry flight.

Monty - you were not sponsored, so did you spend 2 full years at sCabair or just a few months whilst an airline job came up.Remember they have the sponsored guys/gals over a barrel and they know it and they certainly enjoy shafting them any which way they can- instructor or student.I've seen it.

Most of the management try to rule the instructors by threats, here are some that I heard;
Do you WANT to be a pilot?
We will send you to Redhill?(knowing its miles from your home)

When the new european max hours came out last year,and the instructors didn't want to sign the form exempting them, they were individually called in to see a director who said it "could ruin your career!"

Balpa know a lot about sCabair.Give them a call.

They do not treat their instructors with the respect they truly deserve.They are true professionals who have studied hard and sacrificed much only to be treated with contempt and like school children.

Tread carefully, very carefuly.

Frank being honest and frank!!

[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 19 May 2001).]

Monty Nivo

19th May 2001, 14:35

Frank,

I fear you may have missed my point - if the weather was unsuitable, I didn't fly.

I did spend quite some time at Cabair, and I have also taught at about half-a-dozen other schools. At least Cabair have competent bosses and sound finances, and there was never any shortage of flying. They certainly never treated me like a child, and I accorded them the appropriate respect. I ensured I accorded respect to the AFIs working under/with me.

Bottom line - If I needed an instructing job again, I would be heading their way first.

You're right, I wasn't sponsored, but I know many who were, and they all have 'proper' airline jobs now, either as TP Captains or on jets, with good reputable companies. Bear that in mind.

Instructing can be very frustrating, especially if you view it as 'just hour-building for a proper job'. It is, and should be, more than that, and all instructors should discipline themselves on that point.

AC 30

19th May 2001, 23:01

As an instructor i can let anyone interested in the klm uk scheme know exactly what's involved.

The main problem with the scheme is the way in which the cabair bosses treat their dedicated and professional instructors. Everything that Honest Frank has to say is sadly the way it is. Morale is at an all time low at most of the schools and i dread to think what it must be like at Elstree.

The scheme sounds wonderful when you read about it in pilot or flight but when you finally get out at cranfield and start to instruct it's a different ball game altogether. The problem here is that it is too late at this stage as you are bonded for the next 2 years to instructing.

What it fails to say in the contract is that you pay for your Instrument Rating when you join klm uk and the bill for this is £12,000! This is based on only 10 hours in the aircraft maximum. Any more and you have to pay for it. On joining the airline you are deducted £333 per month for the first 3 years. This means that you are getting £4000 a year less than everyone else and there is no option on how you repay it.

In the past years instructors have left the scheme before their time is up because they cannot stand it anymore. There have been 2 further departures in recent months as the pay cuts were considered to be the last straw. You will spend close to 3 years at cabair from start to finish plus a further 3 at klm uk so i would advise anyone entering in to it to make sure they know what they are doing. 6 years is a very long time to be tied into any contract.

The pay scheme is a joke too. In order to get around the minimum wage you get payed for 4 days a week but you are "advised" to work a fifth day voluntarily. You only get paid for this extra day if you fly a certain number of hours a month. This means that most bad weather months cost you extra money in petrol for going in on that fifth day and working for nothing! Not to mention that as a sponsored instructor you will receive a reduced wage which basically goes towards your instructor upgrade training.

If you want some advice for the interview then do not let on that you have any concerns about pay and conditions as they will not want to know. Also, you will be asked if you mind working this extra day and also if you will work more than 48 hours a week. Yes, you can probably guess which candidates will receive automatic letters of regection.

The one good point is that if you have worked for cabair then future employers will feel sorry for you as they all know what they are like. My advice would be to pay for your training yourself and if you must instruct for cabair under the scheme then read up on employment law and join balpa immediately. Take your contract to a specialist and get them to tell you how to get out of it should/when you feel the need to do so.

The best thing to do is go along to elstree and speak to the current instructors, that is, if there are any left!

PS i believe Honest Frank is correct to assume the identity of the most recent escapee.

Charlie Foxtrot India

20th May 2001, 12:34

The sad thing is that so many keen wannabees think this is the easy way to an airline job...

Honest Frank

20th May 2001, 23:32

Monty-
"Competent bosses and sound finances"

These same competent bosses that try to rule by school boy bully tactics.
These same bosses who do not WANT to listen to their professionally qualified staff.
These same bosses who treat their employees like second class citizens when it comes to conditions at work.
These same bosses who cannot be approached with any sort of problem.
These same bosses who implemented such ridiculous pay changes that instructors had to find a second job to help with bills.

And as far as sound finances- where were these sound finances when it came to the 4 day working week. If they were that sound then why cut the week down to four days and suggest the instructors come in on the 5th day at their own expense to try to meet targets.

Conditions when working at Cabair could include;
A crew room no bigger than the average family bathroom.
The rule that no kettles are allowed in the crew rooms.
Hot or spicy food is not to be eaten on the premises (even in the crew room).
A drinks machine that is always breaking down or has run out of water.(nice on a hot summer afternoon when you've just been talking your bo**ocks off and need a drink) I remember one of those water dispensers being delivered one day.The chief cod Thiefcote saw it, went ape*hit and sent it back even before it was plugged in.The customers would abuse it he thought.Well how about putting it in the crew room so employees can use it.No such chance.
A flying programme that allows no breaks for food or rest.Its up to the instructor to make time.But on most days its impossible because of students needs.So you would find yourself gulping down a sandwich as your next student is walking in the door.
When not flying because of weather you could be used by anyone for any tasks,ie driving to the bank, driving to pick up spares,(if using your own car a few bob could be made) putting brochures in envelopes, and a favourite of the exbinman director was to put the aircraft in registration order on the apron??????ARSE
When the wx is crap being told by a jumped up short-a*se a*se wipe who can and who cannot go to Maccy D's.(you know who you are)

You wanna know more?

[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 20 May 2001).]

737-NG First Officer

21st May 2001, 00:23

Go Frank Go! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/dh.gif

Freddy Forks

21st May 2001, 16:42

Go on my son!!!!
Thats exactly how it is.

RVR800

21st May 2001, 16:45

This all sounds dreadful

- Very bad PR

Monty Nivo

22nd May 2001, 00:37

Honest Frank,

I don't want this to develop into a slanging match with you, but I hope I can reply to one or two of your points.

Please bear in mind that I have been in the airline business now for several years.

First, let me say that I haven't been at Cabair for quite some years now, so things may have changed, but I did spend a long time instructing there and elsewhere from about '89 onwards.

You mention 'bully boy tactics'. Obviously you haven't worked for an airline yet, and when you do, you will find some of these tactics present in most of them. Read the other forums here.

Second class conditions - you're only a flying instructor, and you're lucky to be at a busy school with plenty of work about. When I say 'competent' I mean that the school will probably be there on Monday morning, and there will probably be students to fly. They can afford to maintain the aeroplanes and pay your wages.

If you can't approach your boss with a problem, what does that say about your personal skills? How will you get on at an airline where the problems are bigger and the bosses often more imposing?

The pay changes I can't comment on - I was well-paid whilst there.

Crew rooms? Go and check out your local 'flying school in a Portacabin' to make a comparison. I always found them quaintly attractive...

Food and drink moans... Are you going to join a 'low cost' operator? Take a bottle or a flask and stop being a big baby.

Gulping down your sandwich - well, I used to arrange my programme to cover a quick break by having a competent 12&13 student at lunchtime, say, who didn't need a lot of briefing, thus making time for a quick lunch. Perhaps that's not your style, but you do need to eat, so make time or run late?

Other duties? Show some commitment. I really do think you should go and try some other outfits on waterlogged grass airfields with unheated huts for offices and two run-down C-152s before having a go like this. What do you expect from your future airline employer? If you have a medical problem, they'll get you in to work doing menial tasks too, if the weather is too poor, you'll sit around on your back-side until Crewing tell you to go home (and you'll be taking your orders then from an 18-year old school leaver with no formal training to speak of who is effectively running your life).

I'm sorry to be so patronising, but my message is 'wake up and grow up'. If you need 'out' of Cabair that quickly, e-mail me and I'll do my best to help you out.

Honest Frank

22nd May 2001, 14:28

Monty-

Too late

How long ones been in the Airline business doesn't matter a toss when it comes to telling the truth from experience.And I am telling others how it WAS so they can prepare themselves if that is what they want.Better than painting a rosy, bright picture from experience some 12 years previous that is so out of date.

OK- when you were there everything was rosy-nice-but when I was there it was *****.And if you were to pay a visit now and talk to the instructors they I'm sure would back me up 100%.Things have changed my friend I'm afraid.
I am also in the Airline industry but unlike yourself I don't deserve a medal it seems.
I have worked in many other types of industry including the building trade with many diferent types of bosses and fellow employees.So nothing wrong with my personal skills there.
Tell me something, how do you approach a boss that quite plainly says to your face "I haven't got time to speak to you, I'm going home and besides the matters closed!" And you have already written to him twice outlining the problems you could face.
They know that you wont chase things up in case you lose your sponsorship.They DO try and rule by threat ie.mess with me and I will ruin your career before it starts.

Problems at an airline bigger.Problems cant come any bigger than any sort of personal problem that affects the individual and their partners future. And how are bosses at an airline more imposing- Any boss be it airline or flying establihment can have an affect on your future.

Havent seen any bullying tactics in the airline industry to compare with the school boy type of bullying used by sCabair.

"You're ONLY a flying instructor"
Oh dear, my dear Monty.You'll probably get lynched for that one.Hope that you dont turn to your co-pilot and say "you're only an F/O!" (That is if you are a capt)Don't you think that every employee(hod-carrier to airline pilot) should be treated like a human being.Or are you still living in the "jumpers for goalposts," "I remember when," "youngsters these days," etc era.I think you are. So if one is lucky enough to find themselves at a busy flying school they are supposed to be grateful forever more and take the conditions with a pinch of salt and keep quiet.Come off it what year is this Monty.Its 2001 if you havent realised yet.
You were so clever in organising 12 & 13 round about lunchtime.You are my hero.So you managed that every day. Wow you star.You must have even got operations to do that for you too when students phoned up for a lesson and you were out.Clever boy."Sorry he can only do circuits at that time sir."
Running late- sometimes possible, but with IMC students later on with beacons booked not so easy. Or with students who have businesses to run, work to go to and with operations having worked out your programme to fit in with the sometimes lack of aircraft- not so easy.

And I've got no problem in taking orders from an 18 year old if thats his job. Clearly you have.
You obviously have been in the airline industry too long to think that you are so important that no-one else should be allowed to say anything you disagree with even if it is backed up by fact.
Listen to others point of view---ermmmm-----CRM I think its called.But ofcourse you knew that, with all them years in the airlines.

Yours HONESTLY,

FRANK xxx

[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 22 May 2001).]

Honest Frank

22nd May 2001, 14:40

S-turns.
Look at what you've done.You've started me off and I can't stop.Its all your fault.ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhh

Good luck with the interviews, hope all goes well.If it is what you choose at least you have been told what it could be like.I wasn't warned and spent over 2 years there.I tell it how it was.Why not visit a couple of the schools including Elstree to speak to the instructors.Dont be shy just say who you are and what you are doing.Pick a bad wx day and go down the cafe with them.Ask them what you want and i'm sure they wont hold back.

On the good side is all the hours and experience that you achieve.

Frank le honest

[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 22 May 2001).]

johntrav69

22nd May 2001, 18:50

Right on!! or should I say Write On!!

737-NG First Officer

22nd May 2001, 21:20

Monty

You patronising, ill informed git! Tell me you were actually born yesterday, at least then we can start on your personality from scratch.

S Turns

Give me your number again, I lost it. Cheers.

AC 30

22nd May 2001, 22:22

You've got me going now!

Here i was trying to give a complete guide to the scheme to let everyone make an individual choice but then i thought, what the hell, there's an election going on. It's time to get into a fight and dish the dirt.

I think STurns had better get along to Hellstree before too long. I've just been told that 6 of the staff have left in the last 2 months! 2 fixed wing, all 3 heli guys and one ops member,(sadly not the space cadet, Frank!)

Respect!! Boys and girl!

Another fundamental problem about Cabair is that the directors give out false information about this scheme to try and lure you to sign up to it. A major concern for you all is the ability to survive for the 3 years that you will spend with them. They do not inform you that you will not be payed for one year of this for a start. Secondly, I was informed that I would earn £15,000 a year and that someone had recently received £17,000. In actual fact my pay for year one was closer to £12,000. That would then aquate to £8000 pa over the 3 years. All this before the company dished out 3, yes 3, pay cuts.

I know that £12,000 is probably considered quite a lot as far as instructor pay goes but when you are planning your budget to live then a 3 year commitment requires a sound backing. Again it is typical of Cabair to let everyone know that they pay the most but they have hidden the fact that you will not get anything for a third of your time there! Also, London prices as everyone knows have a much higher impact on your monthly take home pay. The net result is that you end up obtaining yet more loans to help get you through. If you had known all this at the start then you would have been better off doing an upgrade modular course without having 3 years of bullying.

Do you know how hard it is to get a loan as an instructor when you have no contract of employment with klm uk whatsoever. That's the beauty of it. When it all goes tit's up and klm uk don't even offer you a job at the end it has all been a shambles from start to finish. Yet Cabair have got what they wanted.

I can also relate to the lack of support given by the directors when approaching them with your financial problems. "there are plenty of others willing to work for that you know." No, I didn't know, that's the whole point! Had I known you were going to cut the pay I could have perhaps done something about it before I started.

Frank does paint a bleak picture but there will be a lot of Cabair instructors reading this and having a very loud chuckle to themselves. They all know what it is like so get down to a school and make your own choice.

Please don't enrage me to say much more.
I can respond to any individual questions that people may have if anyone can't manage to get to a school.

AC 30

Freddy Forks

22nd May 2001, 22:48

"Frank for president"-

I'm with you mate - I suffered at the hands of gRabair for 2 years. Couldn't wait to get out.Worst company I ever had the misfortune of working for.I only hope they read all the above.

STurns

23rd May 2001, 13:59

737NG,

Email me and i'll send you my number.

STurns

Monty Nivo

25th May 2001, 00:08

Well, 'Honest' he may be, but he's no expert at intellectual debate. And to think that I was his 'dear friend' such a short time ago - or perhaps he was patronising me?

Cabair is Cabair, you take it or leave it.

I believe that when I was there the good outweighed the bad by some margin.

But then, I wasn't dim enough to be suckered by promises that would never be kept - and I didn't even have a background in the building trade :)

My opening remarks about my own background were largely intended to clarify that my experience of Cabair might be a little out of date. A couple of you took this as some sort of bragging - I'll let you ponder on your own rushed and incorrect interpretations (and what this sort of inability to assimilate information without setting it in your own context might lead to in the flight deck).

I agree that it's best to go into anything with your eyes wide open, and the advice to go and seek out the opinions of current staff is good. I am far from sure that they will be keen to give an unbiased picture to someone who has just walked in off the street though.

Oh, and 737-NG FO: I would guess that Privatair would expect rather better communications skills from their pilots....... Good luck, anyhow.

It would be nice to have a discussion here that didn't get dragged down to personal sniping at 'fellow professionals' Perhaps it's time to go back to playing with the older boys.

Finaly, respect is earned, not a right. My CRM skills are fine, thanks very much, but you seem to be so expert as to be able to form a valid opinion on my professional ability without ever having met or flown with me? Good CRM doesn't prevent me calling a spade a spade, and nor should it.

AC 30

25th May 2001, 19:33

STurns, here are 10 reasons not to sign up to the KLM UK scheme. They are known to most as the Cabair Fixed Wing Salary Structure.

I'll list the points and then explain some of them that may need some clarification.

With effect from 1st November 2000

1 Scheme is based on a 4 day working week.

2 Sat/Sun are mandatory working days, subject to the following. All instructors are allowed one scheduled Sat or Sun or a full weekend off every 8 weeks subject to operations approval. Days on will be switched to accommodate this.

3 Instructors can (at their option) work an additional day or days each week and earn £15/hr(ppl), £25/hr(imc), £30/hr(multi). Additional hours are only paid on reaching the threshold in each relevant calendar month. On additional days there are no fixed hours of work.

4 Threshold for additional pay reduced in winter months.

5 Basic salary for FI(R) will be £750/month (non-sponsored) and £650/month (sponsored) for a 4 day week.

6 FI (A) receive £100/month supplement.

7 £250 quarterly bonus will apply upon achievement of threshold hours.

8 No roll over scheme

9 All current rates for ferrying, groundschool etc. remain unchanged.

10 15 days holiday plus statutory and bank holidays remain unchanged.

1 Everyone is stronly advised to work 5 full days.
2 This has been scrapped but instructors have not been told officially. They all must work every weekend without exception it seems. A memo was sent to all the ops managers to tell them not to let instructors off at the weekend. The instructors were never told or consulted.
3 Threshold hrs for each quarter are
nov/dec/jan 30hrs/month
feb/mar/apr 35hrs/month
may/jun/jul 45hrs/month
aug/sep/oct 40hrs/month
4 see above
5 It is rumoured that this is set to decrease for the 4th time to £500 basic for sponsored instructors!
6 On completion of your solo supervisions you receive this extra money. It takes approximately 8 months.
7 This is complete rubbish. It is upon achievement of the "bonus hours" which are as follows; 1st quarter 120 hrs, 2nd quarter 160hrs, 3rd quarter 200hrs and 4th quarter 180hrs. They are totally unrealistic and it is worth noting that no instructor has met the bonus so far this year!
8 In the past it was calculated over a longer period than a month but it was not practical.
9 If you ferry an aircraft for the company you get £10/hr. Groundschool is £5/hr but only paid if you fly over 40/hrs a month. 39 and you get Football Association!
10 Instructors have recently been told that they cannot even take a weekend off as holiday leave! The worst part about holidays is that you get no credit for your days off. This means that in order to earn over the basic wage you must fly your whole threshold in the remaining time of the month! ie take 2 weeks off at the start of june and you must fly 46 hrs in the remaining 2 weeks to get paid £665! Fly one hour and you get £650.

That's about it, don't expect to have this explained to you at any of the selection days as they would like to keep it a secrect until you sign up. You cannot realistically expect to get much more that £12,000 a year.

AC 30

STurns

25th May 2001, 20:30

AC30 or 737NG,

I am assuming you have both been/are instructors at Cabair.

Well I am about to go down this route (I am through to the final stage - interview with KLMuk) and I would appreciate a one-one chat. This is my future i'm talking about.

Can one of you please send me an email so I can contact you to discuss.

Many Thanks,

STurns

Mr B. Tupp

25th May 2001, 20:36

At least the targets are not 100hrs a month in the summer months like a certain other FTO!

737-NG First Officer

26th May 2001, 01:59

Monty!

"You mention 'bully boy tactics'. Obviously you haven't worked for an airline yet" : Patronising, assumption, built a brick wall and took an aggressive stance right at the begining. Not very good CRM!

"Second class conditions - you're only a flying instructor, and you're lucky to be at a busy school with plenty of work about" : Who are you to decide if he is lucky or not, doesn't sound like the basis of a discussion between two professionals to me!

"If you can't approach your boss with a problem, what does that say about your personal skills? How will you get on at an airline where the problems are bigger and the bosses often more imposing?" : He is at an airline, you didn't even bother to search his previous threads before you started insulting.

"Food and drink moans... Are you going to join a 'low cost' operator? Take a bottle or a flask and stop being a big baby." : Again, hardly the stuff of a ......what was the word you used'Professional'? discussion.

"I'm sorry to be so patronising, but my message is 'wake up and grow up'. If you need 'out' of Cabair that quickly, e-mail me and I'll do my best to help you out. " : And the proof of the pudding!! You call yourself patronising, you later go on to say " My CRM skills are fine, thanks very much" prehaps you might want to reconsider, or did you not read your own remarks?

"It would be nice to have a discussion here that didn't get dragged down to personal sniping at 'fellow professionals' " I do believe that you are the one who started insulting our lovely Frank not the other way around.

So, I appologise for the 'Git' bit, passion got the better of me. The ill informed bit, well that is quite clearly true, as Frank does not require your generously offered help! as he already works for one of the airlines. As for starting your personality from scratch, it was an excuse to use a favored Blackadder quote.......Sorry!

Thanks for your best wishes, very kind, but barking up the wrong tree?

Cheers. :)

Honest Frank

26th May 2001, 02:43

737 NG F/O-
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Except for;
"Monty, my dearest friend - may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your ar*ehole forever more".
How's that for intelligent conversation?

FRANKly I don't give a damn. xxxxx

[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 25 May 2001).]

Noisy Hooligan

26th May 2001, 12:38

Honest Frank, go to hear you again, long time no hear!

I can vouch for Honest Frank on all his comments. I worked for Cabair on the same scheme but was lucky enough to be at an airfield away from the constant opprressive management. Working for the company is like working in a Dickensian workhouse, the financial rewards and quality of life during the two years of instruction is disgusting and disheartening and only the strong survive the full two years. HOWEVER. For a person who wants to get into the airline industry, and stand a chance of attaining a first job with a good airline, large jets if desired, the possiblility exists after the two year sentance. Ex-Cabair flying instructors are looked upon in a favorable light, they have shown commitment to the job (not the management)and have been proffessional in their conduct. Those that fly in bad weather under duress rarely do it more then once, and usually only when they are relatively new to the job when hours and 'not wanting to rock the boat' tug at the grey matter telling them to stay on the ground. Once one hot summer day, after a few weeks of heavy flying, I dozed-off on a navex, to be woken up by the 'little-guy' on my shoulder. As I opened my right eye, I saw a PA-28 'jolly close'. I took control and pulled up and rolled over the PA-28. Since then, I make sure that I am fed, watered and rested before any flight.

The rewards, apart from the hours and recognition in subsequent job applications, are few. The best that one can hope for is a few flights with beautiful flying conditions and a favorite student, or finally getting a student through a mindblock with something, or giving nice people their dream come true to fly an aeroplane alone, safely. Don't expect this on a daily basis, of the people that one is required to teach to fly,only approx 10% actually put their required effort into their side of the equasion (this 10% are a joy to fly with even if their ability is less than average). Teaching the other 90% is like trying to push s**t up a pole.
I used to work /7 days a week in the City, 12 to 14 hours a day, but that was nothing compared to teaching people to fly, it should not be undertaken lightly.

My honest thoughts on the subject of instructing with Cabair is that I have no regrets, but I would not do it again. I now feel like the happiest pilot on the planet, flying a B737 for a prestigous airline out of LHR, I could quite happily retire from my current position but I know that aviation has lots more to offer me, and I it.

If you go the instructor route then....
Remember this:

Live for the time you return home and chalk up your hours in your logbook every night.

Keep focussed. Do your job proffessionally - a F**K-up at this stage will affect your career forever. It is not worth it.

If you are asked to do something unusual to the ordinary day, only do it if it is in your interest.

THE TWO YEARS OF HARD WORK ARE A MEANS TO AN END AND NOTHING ELSE.

Frank - keep on rockin' baby. See ya up there!

------------------
Wizz, Bang, Pop !

GeeGee

27th May 2001, 20:32

Well Honest Frank...
Good to know that you are still our shop steward even though you've now escaped!I didn't know that you could write so passionately and eloquently!

I was one of those Cabair boys and I must admit that some of the instructors did get picked on for being outspoken, but to be perfectly honest Sturns if you see the 'sponsorship' deal for what it is, ie a symbiotic relationship between Grabair & instructor and keep your head down; fly when you are able to, and develop good relationships with your students and colleagues, you will enjoy your two year sentence. We had a great laugh in my day, and made some extremely good friends out of colleagues and students, not to mention around 1500 hours of experience which enabled me to go straight to a jet position.

Also looking at the financial package for the instructors now, it looks like it's a better deal than we were on. We started on AFI £250PM basic + £8PH flight pay, with a bonus scheme of £15PH for every hour flown over 40 in the winter and 60 in the summer. Many of us did achieve the bonus and were clocking up between 60 & 90 hours in the summer. And before anyone says it and starts having a go at me, I only went flying when it was beneficial and appropriate for the student to do so, although of course there were others that went flying regardless of the weather on a regular basis, and I'm sure we all remember who they were! As I remember rightly that was the instructors decision and not under any pressure from anyone else. In fact I do believe that the management even had to 'rein'in these renegades in from time to time.
Sturns I'll email you my email address and if you want any further info.
Good Luck
GeeGee :)

[This message has been edited by GeeGee (edited 28 May 2001).]