Touch-and-Go technique

[walkingthewalk]

I would appreciate feedback on the merits of
either teaching "full power fisrt, then retract Flaps," on touch-down versus "retract flaps, re-retrim then full power" - this is in a PA28.

The argument against the former from some is that the centre of Lift is aft with two-stage flaps and when full power is applied, the nose wheel will be pressed down on the runway, this making it more difficult for the "early circuit" student.....

[Honest Frank]

I would go flaps first (either up or to the stage of flap required)then full power. My reasons- with full power selected I wouldn't want the student to be reaching down and possibly looking into the cockpit as the speed builds up to rotation speed.
Also the flaps could be forgotten if the student puts full power first and then starts to concentrate on holding the centreline.
With a student once in a Cessna 182 -landed with full flap. He added full power and forgot the flaps. We went up like a heli with all that power.

[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 06 May 2001).]

[Crossunder]

I totally agree with Honest Frank!

With flaps out, the PA28 will take off in no-time. One thing is that I don't want the student to be looking for the flap handle at Vr, but another thing is that I don't want any flap retraction shortly after take-off, unless we're cleared for touch'n go...
You also want to be sure that the flaps actually come up before lifting off again!

Flaps first, then power.

[Angle of Attack]

Well also I agree with flaps up, then power, once came acrouse a few that taught power then flaps, their reasoning was that it gives students good attitude control, ie full power, get airborne with flaps down then retract in stages flying level along the runway, but personally I think its not the way to go because;

1. as others mentioned, don't want to be hurtling down the runway or airborne and reaching down for an alledged flap handle

2. The aircraft could sink back onto the runway,

3. The aircraft will start wheelbarrowing at worst losing control, or get airborne at very low airspeed

4. In a twin it will be airborne probably below Vmca, and if you lose one theres not many options at such a low speed

Anyway thats my 2 cents worth, or 0.8p worth!

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Ba$tards !!

[Hob78]

When I was training, the electric flaps on my Cessna 152 often got stuck in the position they were in, meaning a lot of no flap landings, and (more importantly) teaching me to always check the flaps had fully retracted after a landing before continuing with the touch and go.

Hob

[Short and Sweet]

Agree totally with Angle of Attack. For the ab initio student, if you have the runway use it and get them to retract the flaps before putting the power on. And get them to identify that the flaps are retracting before the power is introduced. Single engine commanches are notorious for assymmetric flap retraction. Not fun once you are airborne.

As for the wheel barrowing, ever seen a Duchess wheel barrow after the flaps where left down and full power was applied, AoA?

[BLUEBARON]

I teach that the student should slow down (10Kts below rotation at least) then retract the flaps, regain the centerline and have positive control (no fish tailing) then and only then apply power. But then i work at an airfield with a 6500 foot runway!

[Dupre]

As a student (in 152s) I was always taught "Flaps up, visually check that they're retracting, then full power".

It worked very well - and saved my a$$ one day in solo circuit consolidation, when the flaps got stuck! Probably saved much embarassment, being able to full stop having realised the fault!!

[airag]

Hi WTW, I was also taught to raise flaps first and went on to teach others the same as an instructor for all the good reasons laid out above(I'd suggest this applies to all a/c not just pa-28). Interestingly when i did my ag rating the Chief pilot insisted on power first (in c180!!!) then bleed off flap as a/c accelerates. This certainly gets you airborne quickly but power application must be progressive and be prepared for heavy pitch forces as a/c is configured and trimmed for landing.Definately not for inexperienced pilots and only useful for avoiding something straying onto your runway.

[DOC.400]

Flaps first every time -and prepare for a whack of right boot if the power comes in too quickly!!! I did this once solo at Denham and not enough boot sent me off the runway at right angles due to the torque. Nobody noticed so I just taxied back to the start and took off again -oops!!
ILAFFT!!

[Code Blue]

In the light of some of the interesting side effects of this manoeuvre mentioned above, I would like to ask how it is justifiable to teach this unnatural act - the touch and Go ;) - to any student?

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