Instructor turns off vital safety aid

[A and C]

I fear that we may see the above headline it one of Fleet Streets finest if we have a mid-air collision in Class "G" airspace.

The quote below is from the private forum.

"Getting wind of", you say? Let me tell you it absolutely does happen. On a number of occasions I've selected 7000/C on departure and had various instructors reach over and either reselect 7000/A or simply turn the transponder back to standby. Various reasons given including "no need to squawk in class G", "no need for C outside CAS", etc. Seemed v. daft to me.

Perhaps some one out in instructor land tell me why SOME instructors seem to fear the transponder and teach students to leave it swiched off ?.

[FlyingForFun]

Because their own navigation is so bad they are not confident they can remain clear of controlled airspace, and fear that if they squawk someone will notice them straying into controlled airspace and get them into trouble???

I find it hard to believe there are instructors who think that way, but I can't think of any other reason not to squawk if you have a working transponder.

(The only other option is that they have a Mode A only transponder, and they know that if they squawk Mode A without Mode C they will cause LARS providers a huge headache trying to vector all the RAS traffic around them despite being 5000' below said traffic. But since you quoted "I've selected 7000/C", and "either reselect 7000/A or..." that can't be the case here.)

FFF
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[long final]

Have had numerous instructors say the same. Usually giving the reply of ‘why give them any more info than necessary?’

Also, a number of Instrument instructors who flew us around IMC under a FIS even though RIS was available.

[despegue]

The only time that I turned off mode C was when doing PFL's...:E
other than that, you should always use all means of improving safety, and I think we all agree that mode C or even transponder is a potential lifesaver.

[mad_jock]

There is other issues which are local which the student might not know about.

1. Take for instance if you are operating VFR just below CAS even though there is only 300ft seperation you are still deemed to be seperated because you are outside CAS and VFR. But you will trigger RA's all the time to traffic above.

2. Stroppy Mill controllers who will try and seperate you from everything if you like it or not. Class G VFR it dosn't matter.

3. In the circuit there is a pink out not to squawk.

4. Tatical squawking when you can't be arsed letting people know what your doing and don't want any radar tapes (aka doing PFL's)

To be honest at the start of an instructors career they will squawk all the time and after a while and being bitten a few times they will tend to turn it off unless its needed. And the worst people I have taught for not squawking are ATCO's. Makes you think if ATCO's don't want it on!!!

MJ

And the instructor on a FIS. Some airports charge you more if you go IFR at anytime during the flight. They will charge you IFR approach fees even if you return VFR.

[A and C]

Can I now think of a new "Headline" !.

Mad Jock can you tell me which airports do this ?.

[BEagle]

MJ - you wrote:

"In the circuit there is a pink out not to squawk."

Could you tell me the number of the AIC to which you refer? I was unable to find it on the UK AIC website.

At the local West Oxonian aerodrome ("we're very busy - one TriStar due off in 5 minutes and 1 a/c in the instrument patern..."), the Flying Prevention Branch insist on VFR squawks in the circuit and once tried to prevent one of my light a/c from taking off because it had an unserviceable transponder! If you can give me the reference I'll be happy to throw it at them!

[bookworm]

3. In the circuit there is a pink out not to squawk.

Not one that I can find. The CAA's advice was fairly recently changed from "squawk Mode A/C at all times except in the circuit." to "squawk Mode A/C at all times." The safety benefits of Mode C in the circuit were thoguht to outweight any disadvantages.

[foxmoth]

Take for instance if you are operating VFR just below CAS even though there is only 300ft seperation you are still deemed to be seperated because you are outside CAS and VFR. But you will trigger RA's all the time to traffic above.

Unlikely, ATC will not normally have aircraft right at the base of CAS.

[hugh flung_dung]

Madjock, methinks you're a little out of date about not squawking in the circuit - this changed 2-3 years ago (unless I missed something recently).
At some places the txpdr needs to be on before starting to taxy. A couple of years ago I had the joy of doing some night circuits at Heathrow and had to park there overnight. Next day I got chewed-off for forgetting to switch the transponder on before starting to move! I presume it's used to control their automated taxy "lead" light system.
HFD

[PPRuNe Radar]

UK AIP ENR 1.6.2 (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/2010602.PDF)

Para 1 General

Para 1.2

In airspace where the operation of transponders is not mandatory, pilots of suitably equipped aircraft should comply with paragraph 2.2 except where remaining within the aerodrome traffic pattern below 3000 ft AGL.

Para 1.3

With the exceptions detailed in paragraph 2 pilots shall:

(d) select Mode C simultaneously with Mode A unless otherwise instructed by an ATS unit.

Para 2.2 Conspicuity Code

2.2.1 When operating at and above FL100 pilots shall select code 7000 and Mode C except:

(a) When recieving a service from an ATS Unit or Air Defence Unit which requires a different setting.

(b) When circumstances require the use of one of the Special Purpose Codes or one of the other specific conspicuity codes assigned in accordance with the UK SSR Code Assignment Plan as detailed in the table at ENR 1-6-2-3 to ENR 1-6-2-6.

2.2.2 When operating below FL100 pilots should select code 7000 and Mode C except as above.



Seems clear enough to me :)

[Send Clowns]

Is this another case of the "safety" system making things less safe? Are dubious prosecutions by the CAA under rule 5 making instructors switch off their altitude reporting, to remove any evidence of a small excursion within 500 feet/1500 ft/1000 m?

[A and C]

I dont see the mode "C" as a problem when teaching PFL's after all IF you wish you can take the aircraft down to 1ft above the ground !.

Rule 5 prohibits you from doing this within 500ft of any person structure or vessel.

I dont see a problem as with most PFL's the student will know if they would have made the field by 200 ft so the area that you have to make sure is clear is quite small.

Most low flying prosicutions are from people who have an axe to grind and who lie to the CAA ( be this because of ignorance of malice ) and this comes out in court.

[Send Clowns]

I agree, but the CAA does prosecute. Therefore people worry, and so, however unreasonable they may feel they don't want proof that they were even within 500' of the ground available to the CAA. Can't say I could criticise them too much.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Unless the Mode C has been verified by an ATS unit (by asking the pilot to report and confirming the answer meets what is shown on the radar), then it cannot be deemed to be accurate, and it would be a brave prosecutor who did so at a trial :)

It is for this reason that ATC apply a buffer of several thousand feet to traffic under their control in respect of unidentified or unverified SSR targets with Mode C.

On a VFR flight I have never been asked to confirm my altitude for Mode C purposes.

[bookworm]

PPrune Radar quoted:

In airspace where the operation of transponders is not mandatory, pilots of suitably equipped aircraft should comply with paragraph 2.2 except where remaining within the aerodrome traffic pattern below 3000 ft AGL.

and that is indisputably the current AIP advice. However, GASIL 4 of 2002 reported:

For many years we have been advising pilots to use their transponders at all times, “squawking” both mode A and mode C, except in the visual circuit pattern. With the increasing use of airborne collision avoidance systems (ACAS) in commercial aircraft, it has been decided to update the published procedures. The UKAIP is about to be amended to reflect these.

Whenever possible, pilots with a serviceable transponder should select and transmit code 7000 with altitude reporting (mode C) at all times, unless one of the following conditions apply:
• An air traffic service unit has allocated a different code
• A Special purpose code (such as the distress code of 7700) is more appropriate
• The aircraft is operating within a visual circuit and local procedures require the transponder to be set to standby

The change means that while previously pilots were asked to switch the transponder to STANDBY when in an aerodrome traffic pattern, unless instructed otherwise, we are now asking you to keep it on ALT (ON with mode C) unless instructed otherwise.

So what's the latest thinking?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Current formal procedure is as I quoted, until the AIP is amended when the new procedure comes in to force.

The new one makes sense to me :ok: and await its introduction. Wasn't aware of the proposed change so thanks for that.