Tayside Aviation Rumour

[ComJam]

I heard a rumour about T.A. being to taken to court by the Inland Revenue (allegedly!). Anyone know more?

CJ

[Mr B. Tupp]

Apparantly it's about their instructors not being paid the national minimum wage!

[ComJam]

Thanks B.Tupp, that's exactly what I had heard!

Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke! :)

[MorePower]

Maybe the Inland blokes should check into Taysides NVQ scam.........Hint,Hint!!!

My turn to get the knife in!!!

[twizzle]

Can anyone tell me who owns Tayside?

[MorePower]

R Lovat Fraser OBE


My advice - Don`t even think of asking him for a job!!!
He is currently being dragged through the courts for not paying minimum wage!

PS- This could be the floodgates opening for poorly paid instructors across the board - Cabair Instructors - Take note!!!



[This message has been edited by MorePower (edited 27 December 2000).]

[Richie Coulson]

Is this true??

I was considering doing exactly that

RC

[This message has been edited by Richie Coulson (edited 14 January 2001).]

[DB6]

As a current Tayside instructor I have to say I have had nothing but good experiences working at Dundee. The money is not great but as far as I know it's no worse than most flying schools, and I've never personally had any problems with the management. The stuff about going to court is not correct, the IR paid a visit but as far as I know they're happy now. You do get a lot of hours in and work hard during summer but it's a good crack, standards are high (RAF CFS approval etc.) and you could do a lot worse. Besides which Angus is a stunning place to fly. Email me if you want more advice.
Cheers DB6

[Mr B. Tupp]

I would add as well that it is not true about the courts, yes they did have a visit and that has resulted in nothing more than a slight admin change. Taught with them for almost two years in which their was some great flying and a lot of hard work, yes the money is not great but then most instructing jobs are pretty poorly paid and let`s face it your not doing it for the money at this stage.
As someone who has been critical of them lately I should set the record straight by saying that I have been a bit disgruntled by some people in the company but Mr Fraser did nothing but help me through the difficulties involved in becoming a commercial pilot, both financial and personal. Indeed he himself helped me secure a GAPAN scholarship which funded my FI rating and he himself gave me what I am sure is one of the best Flying Instructor courses available in the country.
All this said he himself has been very upset by some of the comments that I have previously posted, and I unreservedly apologise to him for these comments which I freely admit were written after bad days at work dealing with other members of staff.
No one else in the country I'm sure could help you so much if you choose to work for Tayside Aviation.
I myself would not be off to my new job if it was not for the initial step on to the ladder that Mr Fraser gave me four years ago.

[MorePower]

Sorry, I cant fully agree with DB6.

Yes standards are faily high.

Pay is crap! And there are better paid instructor jobs out there.

Yes the Inland Revenue did pay them a visit, and then sent out letters to some Tayside Instructors for wage information.

The IR guy told me that unless Tayside change their pay structure, they will be taken to court. Two weeks ago, I was asked by the IR if I would be prepared to go to court if required.

If the pay structure is changed, it may be a good option. However, it will more that likely be resolved with paperwork, rather than there being any sig changes. As DB6 says, you can get lots of flying hours from Tayside, but you will be poorly rewarded for them!

In other words, if you don`t care about the student, and just want to hour build for the airlines, then Tayside is the place for you! If you enjoy instructing, wish to be a quality instructor, and are in no hurry for the airlines or perhaps wish to be a career instructor, then Tayside is not for you.

I was once told by tayside management that the instructors use the company to build flying hours, so the company uses instructors for cheap labour.
I think that statement speaks for itself!

Good luck!

PS Mr B Tupp, how much were you paid to write that Bull! Or was it written with a gun to your head! Hope all is going well with your new job. See ya!

[This message has been edited by MorePower (edited 15 January 2001).]

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well as another current Tayside instructor I have to agree with DB6 and stand up for Tayside here. It's been my experience that Tayside management and Mr Fraser in particular certainly don't suffer fools or time wasters, but they have a great deal of respect for people who show a bit of initiative, pull their thumb out and get the job done - and they do what they can to look after those people.

My biggest problem with the place is that there are one or two people in the instructor ranks who sit on their arse, constantly moan about pay and conditions, fly every fraction of ever hour they possibly can without ever raising a finger to ever refuel the aeroplanes / wash the coffee cups / answer the phone or do any of the million little things they might do to make other people's lives a bit easier. We all know who I'm talking about.

As far as money goes, sure we're not getting rich but for some reason we're all still hanging round!! I walked into this with my eyes open - I knew what the deal was and I budget accordingly. Sure I'm going to go to the airlines at some stage before long and I don't think the management suffer under any illusions to the contrary. The pay is better than any of the PPL schools I looked at before I joined Tayside - there may well be better money to be made at OATS / Bae / whatever flashy 509 school you care to name, and I'm sure if you walk into Lovat's office and say you're leaving Tayside to take on another instructing job at any of those establishments he will shake your hand and wish you nothing but the best.

As far as not caring about your students is concerned, well that's just so much sour grapes isn't it? I do all that I can to give my students maximum value for money every time I fly. I've made some good friends amongst the Tayside staff and students in the short time I've been there.

I reckon some of you guys complaining here might be surprised, if you went to Lovat and told him in all seriousness you wanted an instructing career, he'd look after you. But of course you don't - you're bitten with the airline bug just like the rest of us. Of course there is a grain of truth in the 'they use us / we use them' argument, that happens at any other flying school on earth as well. Believe it or not that sounds almost *fair* to me!! If you can think of a better way to that RHS then take it - otherwise my advice is to grin and bear the bad bits of the job, enjoy the hell out of the good bits, and do what you can to make your stay at the place as pleasant for yourself, your students and your fellow workers.

[DB6]

Have to disagree with you on some of that, MorePower. As you say there is an element of the school and the instructors using each other but I for one would expect that of any school and as Luke says if you do your best for them they will do their best for you, however as one who enjoys instructing hugely, wishes to be a quality instructor, puts the students needs first and is in no hurry to join the airlines I am very happy at Tayside. That's why I'm still there.
Anyway, how's the cervesa and have you tried pulpitos yet ? Yum Yum.
Cheers DB6

[MorePower]

Luke, I am glad you have put forward this point of view. I respect the fact that both yourself and DB6 show a huge interest in your students. However, as you also mention, a number of others do not share this "work orientated responsibility".

My main gripe is not with Tayside or its instructors. As you know, I am friends with most of them. The point that I am trying to make is that unless flying schools start to improve salaries and working conditions for their instructors, then their will soon be a lack of experienced instructors. Evidence of this shortage of experienced instructors is evident in many flying schools. I see this as detrimental to flying training of the future, and therefore the quality of future pilots. I use Tayside as an example because of the recent IR investigation to minimum wage (which I DID NOT instigate despite rumours).
With reference to the "long term employment" as an instructor with Tayside, I can assure you that once this is made known to tayside, nothing changes. i already used this card almost 2 years ago, and I was told that a career instructor was someone who could not reach the airline medical standards, or was over 50 years old. As I did not come into this category, that was it!
With reference to pay, I objected to have been qualified up to teaching the non approved IR, having to supervise junior, restricted instructors, and being paid the same salaries despite the added responsibilities!
To summarise, I want to see all flying schools accross the UK paying their instructors fairly, and DEMANDING a high standard from their instructors in return. I think this would offer the best deal for the instructor, the FTO, but most importantly, the student.

By the way DB6 la cerveza es mucho buenos! Not tried the pulpitos yet, but the senioritas are mighty tasty! And it is great fun out here.

Oh and yep, they pay instructors proper pay, which is scaled upon experience and responsibilities as it should be!


[This message has been edited by MorePower (edited 18 January 2001).]

[YouNeverStopLearning]

1. If you are "employed" then you are entitled to the minimum wage per hour THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ATTEND;

2. Tayside's "retainer" generally covers the minimum wage requirement in the winter - but sometimes it comes close to the edge. Based on a 35 hour week the M/W is £561 per month, a 40 hour week is £641/month, all before tax.

3. The next issue with Tayside is the "Working Time Directive". In the summer this is breached on a regular basis, 12/14 hour days with CFS cadets, and rest breaks, ie. lunch, are frowned on. The booking sheets don't even have a space for breaks so they are keeping their own damming evidence against themselves! Tayside does not appear to accept that an employer has a DUTY of care to all its staff all year round.

4. Mrs Frazer is very friendly but she is the spy in the camp. DO NOT TELL HER ANYTHING.

5. Many other flying clubs either knowingly ignore the minimum wage, Ci***air EGKB, or force their instructors to be, illegally, self-employed, therefore removing the employers need to pay the minimum wage.