FM Immune?

[Ransman]

Who knows how we stand with teaching VOR Tracking, ILS etc without FM Immune sets in the a/c? If we are in VMC, with the student under the hood, is this ok. Can we not go into actual IMC for the realism? The last AOPA seminar in Bristol couldn't answer this, and JAR don't cover the IMC. Any suggestions?

[rolling circle]

Here's a radical idea - read the AIC (87/2000 - Pink 7). To quote:

"These requirements will concern all operations that take place under Instrument Flight Rules within the United Kingdom FIR/UIR."

Does nobody else think it strange that an instructor should need to ask such a question?

[Ransman]

Yep, IFR I know, but a training flight can be operated under VFR, the aircraft clear of cloud etc. etc. hense my question. So I take it you don't know either.

[rolling circle]

Ransman, is this a wind up? It really couldn't be much clearer.

If the aircraft is operated in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules then the requirements for FM immunity apply. If the aircraft is operated in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules then the requirements do not apply.

[Noggin]

The AIC is actually incorrect because a non public transport flight under IFR outside controlled airspace does not need to carry a VOR FM immune or otherwise.

[rolling circle]

The AIC is not incorrect, Noggin. It is quite true that VOR is not required for non public transport flights under IFR outside regulated airspace and the AIC does not suggest otherwise.

I think the main problem here is that Ransman's original question was not very clearly expressed, which might account for the lack of a reply from the seminar. Let's try to cover all options.

1. Carriage of VOR/ILS is mandated by Schedule 4 of the ANO.

2. If an aircraft is mandated under the Schedule for carriage of VOR/ILS the equipment must be meet the FM immunity requirements.

3. If the aircraft is not mandated under the Schedule for the carriage of VOR/ILS but such equipment is, nevertheless, fitted, it must either meet the FM immunity requirements or be placarded for use only under VFR.

[TooHotToFly]

RC - The confusion between you Noggin came about because you said 'If the aircraft is operated in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules then the requirements for FM immunity apply. If the aircraft is operated in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules then the requirements do not apply.'

Not, as you said - 'I think the main problem here is that Ransman's original question was not very clearly expressed, which might account for the lack of a reply from the seminar.'

[rolling circle]

Hmmmm. I don't see why that statement should have caused confusion as it was absolutely correct, asuming, of course that the aircraft is fitted with equipment subject to the requirements. If, however, the aircraft is not so fitted then the original question is completely pointless - is this, perhaps, what you are suggesting?

[Stan Evil]

Rolling Circle - which statutory instrument requires that a VOR used as specified in point 3 of your last but one post be FM immune?

[rolling circle]

Stan Evil - SI 1562/2000 Article 14 - Next question.

[The Flying I]

Ransman - you asked at the wrong conference. If you'd asked at the Avionics Sales Conference you would have had a very consistent and clear answer - no matter what question you asked. ("Just spend a few grand on some new kit - that's all you need to know"). It's nothing to do with instructors, it's 100% to do with selling new kit.

[rolling circle]

Has it not occurred to anyone that this is a very sad thread, started by a very silly question?

No matter, I'll play along with everyone else - Have at me, thou varlet!!

[Solent 01]

I thought...........

If IFR/IMC in controlled airspace you must be FM immune, but out side controlled you can operate IFR/IMC without being immune.

I'm probably wrong though..........


BEACON OUTBOUND

[Welshbwoy]

Oh come on - let's face reality. Like most clubs I guess, the one I fly with has not fitted any aircraft with FM immune equipment. This just means that everyone will carry on exactly as they did before. Be this VOR/ILS training in VMC, or flying through poor weather to get home. Not ideal, but it will happen.

[A and C]

So guys please tell me how i tell an FM immune king KX 155 from one that is not without resorting to the often missing placards in the cockpit ?

[rolling circle]

Quite right Welshbwoy, many people will go on as before - right up to the time that something (completely unconnected with FM immunity)goes wrong and the insurance company refuse to pay out. But that'll never happen.....will it?

[Ransman]

When I said FM Immune, I meant Foot & Mouth! Sorry guys. Got a good discussion going hey!

[bookworm]

What extraordinary arrogance from rolling circle!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Carriage of VOR/ILS is mandated by Schedule 4 of the ANO.</font>

It's Schedule 5 for radios.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">If the aircraft is not mandated under the Schedule for the carriage of VOR/ILS but such equipment is, nevertheless, fitted, it must either meet the FM immunity requirements or be placarded for use only under VFR.</font>

Non-FM-immune VOR/LOC equipment in aircraft under 5700 kg is downgraded to LA Class 3, and must be placarded as such (AWN 84). This forbids such equipment from being used to comply with a requirement for mandatory carriage of radio equipment. There is no requirement to placard it "for use under VFR only".

Rolling circle also quotes "SI 1562/2000 Article 14". Radio equipment is covered by Article 15, not 14, and it merely manadates the requirements of Scehdule 5, which makes no specific requirements for IFR outside controlled airspace.

The CAA has dodged direct questions asking whether it is legal to fly an ILS outside controlled airspace under IFR with a non-FM-immune receiver. It hardly seems unreasonable that Ransman asks about it in this forum.

[A and C]

It would seem to me that if the ILS fitted to an aircraft is not FM immune then when you break out of the cloud at 200ft with only 550 rvr the lights you see may well be Tesco,s car park and not the runway.

Of course you cant fly an ILS with out an FM immune box after all the radio waves cant tell class A and class G air space apart.

[StrateandLevel]

The probability of any interference from FM transmissions is exceedingly small unless the FM Transmitter is at the Top end of the FM Band and the ILS is at the lower end of the band and the transmitter is within a mile of the approach path nevertheless, interference is always a possibility even with so called FM Immune radios.

The appaling thing is is that this revised receiver specification has been arround for the last 20 years and the equipment manufacturers have ignored it. It would be like selling 405 line TV sets in the high street.

Many light aircraft are Class 3 so are in exactly the same position as non FM Immune radios yet nobody has take the slightest notice of that. Last week I saw a Class 3 FM Immune radio which still cannot be used where there is a legal requirement to carry radio navigation equipment.

[A and C]

The reason that the FM immune radio was class 3 is likely to be that to be class 1 the com and nav must be on seperate CB,s to provide some redundancy as most modern nav/com,s have only one power input it requires two boxes for a class one radio station.
But as an FM immune unit it would be safe to make an IFR aproach with if you dont mind trusting your life to one CB.