Restricetd FI on an FAA license?

[Bear Cub]

I get lots of e-mails from across the Atlantic.

Some of my conversations end up discussing the benefit of JAA students/wannabes going to Florida and California for PPL training.

Question came up....could an FAA instructor - who has either no European qualifications (scenario one) or a European PPL (secenario two) attend a JAAflying instructor course and use the knowledge gained to improve his or her tuition skills for their customers?

Question one in my mind is that the FI rating is just that - a RATING...and would need a suitable licence to add it to (JAA PPL?).

Question two would be the commercial knowledge groundschool - but surely this is not a major hurdle. If the instructor cares enough to spend the time and money they could do the groundschool in distance learning. (It's a bit far to travel from Florida to PPSC every morning to attend a class!)

Question three is based on the CPL aspect. Surely, if the instructor is earning money from giving flight instruction in the USA then it is their FAA commercial (and their right to work) that is earning the money - not the JAA FI rating...esp[ecially as they are teaching the same subject anyway.

So what's the opinion? Can an FAA pilot gain a JAA instructor rating and use it to improve their teaching methods?



------------------
Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[rolling circle]

Right, four different questions here.

"....could an FAA instructor - who has either no European qualifications (scenario one) or a European PPL (secenario two) attend a JAAflying instructor course and use the knowledge gained to improve his or her tuition skills for their customers?"

Yes. Although in scenario one they could not get an instructor rating.

"Question two would be the commercial knowledge groundschool...."

No problem, the commercial groundschool is required for the issue of the rating, not for entry to the course.

"Surely, if the instructor is earning money from giving flight instruction in the USA then it is their FAA commercial (and their right to work) that is earning the money - not the JAA FI rating"

Correct. It is necessary to have a FAA licence and instructor certificate to give instruction in FAA registered aircraft in US airspace, it is not necessary to have a JAA licence or rating.

"Can an FAA pilot gain a JAA instructor rating and use it to improve their teaching methods?"

No. A FAA instructor who does not hold a JAA licence cannot gain a JAA instructor rating.

A couple of further things to note:

JAR-FCL 1 does not permit training for JAR-FCL licences and ratings to take place outside of the JAA member states unless the company concerned is registered in and has its principle place of business in a JAA member state. Before everyone goes off the deep end about those schools US approved for JAA training, they have all been approved by the UK CAA in contravention of the requirements of JAR-FCL 1 and the rest of the JAA are not at all happy about it. If and when JAR-FCL 1 is amended to allow training outside JAA member states, there will be a limit on the ratio of non-JAR to JAR qualified instructors (6:1 for PPL training and 4:1 for the rest I believe).

OAT already bring the FAA instructors from their fair weather bases over here for training and put them through most of the FI(R) course, followed by a proficiency check. Mind you, judging by the standard of the students returning from the States, it's a complete waste of time.

[Noggin]

RC

JAR-FCL 1.335 states:
before being permitted to begin an approved course of training for A FI(A) rating an applicant shall have: (b) met the knowledge requirements for a CPL(A) set out in AMC FCL 1.470(b)
So its not just a rating issue requirement.

[rolling circle]

But, if the FAA instructor does not hold a JAA licence (scenario one), he is not beginning an approved course of training for a FI(A) rating is he? He can't get the rating and there is nothing in JAR-FCL that prevents him completing the course - that's a matter between him and the training provider. I agree that if we were talking about scenario two and the instructor was seeking issue of the rating on his JAA PPL then he would have to pass the CPL exams first. That's why the answer to question 1 is Yes while the answer to question 4 is No.

[Bear Cub]

Sooooooooooo, if FAA "guy" (bit sexist are we circle?) does an FI rating course - then does the commercial writtens...then does the skill test for either PPL or CPL "he" could become a JAA rated instructor for the purposes of the 4:1 or 6:1 ratio of which you speak.

Confirm, there is no particular order in which the flights and tests need to be taken - but issue of rating will require correct qualifications (eventually).



------------------
Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[Noggin]

The original question referred to JAA Instructor Courses. As the only JAA FI Courses are "approved" any "unapproved" instructor training cannot be regarded as a "JAA Instructor Course" especially if it does not meet all of the JAA requirements.

[rolling circle]

OK, let's not go off down all sorts of blind alleys. I seem to recall someone on here saying that, if you want the right answer, you need to ask the right question and, with all due respect, Bear Cub has not asked the right question. Try these:

Question: Can a FAA instructor who does not hold a JAA/member state licence gain a JAA Instructor rating?

Answer: No

Question: Can a FAA instructor who holds a JAA or member state PPL gain a JAA instructor rating?

Answer: Of course but (s)he must have passed the CPL theoretical knowledge exams before starting the FI course.

Question: Can a FAA instructor who does not hold a JAA/member state licence complete a JAA FI(A) course?

Answer: Yes. What's more, since (s)he cannot be issued with the rating at the end of the course there is no need for him/her to have passed the CPL exams. (S)he cannot apply retrospectively for the rating (e.g. after subsequently getting a PPL and passing the CPL exams) because the training provider will not have signed the appropriate paperwork for rating issue.

Although, why anyone would want to pay for a FI course with no prospect of getting the rating is beyond me.

So, Bear Cub, in answer to your second set of questions:

"Sooooooooooo, if FAA "guy" (bit sexist are we circle?) does an FI rating course - then does the commercial writtens...then does the skill test for either PPL or CPL "he" could become a JAA rated instructor for the purposes of the 4:1 or 6:1 ratio of which you speak."

Not if (s)he gained only a PPL since the privileges of the FI(A) could be exercised only within a flying club of which both student and instructor were members and for no remuneration. Anyway, Appendix 1a to JAR-FCL 1.055 requires, among other things, that all instructors at an FTO hold a professional licence. If (s)he gained a CPL then the answer would be Yes.

Let's not get into discussions about approved PPL establishment in the US because Part 8 of CAP 682, which will lay down the requirements, has not been published yet. My guess is that the same requirements will apply but who knows?

"Confirm, there is no particular order in which the flights and tests need to be taken - but issue of rating will require correct qualifications (eventually)".

Wrong. If a rating is required then the CPL examinations must be passed before commencing the FI(A) course.

PC enough for you BC?



[This message has been edited by rolling circle (edited 08 February 2001).]

[Bear Cub]

Got ya!

Trouble with forums like these is that you have to be so pedantic with the phraseology otherwise - as you say - the wrong question gets asked.

------------------
Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[TooHotToFly]

RC - Part 8 of CAP 682 has been published now and the requirements are similar to what a UK based school has to do in order to become approved for Multi/IR/CPL/FIC, although not quite as stringent.