The Qf Shortlist Has Been Activated! [Archive]

ozflyboy

8th Jun 2004, 11:50

I write this post with disappointment.......had to do one of the most difficult things I have ever done this afternoon.

After receiving a call from QF HR late yesterday, and subsequently being offered a 10 month contract based in SYD (with training starting in one week!) I had to turn down that particular training school as I couldn't possibly only give my current airline only 1 weeks notice AND move to another state........so the lovely lady said that she would call me back in the next couple of days with (hopefully) another later date.

Got the 2nd call this morning offering a school in just under three weeks - better timing - however was told that these contracts will most DEFINITELY terminate next May......and have been also told by a very reliable source that these will not be extended (they'll be used just to cover a spike in flying-and until the London base opens).

Unfortunately, I couldn't jusify leaving a full-time flying job for 10months AND moving to another state for the position.

Such a pity that we have been made wait 16 months for a 10 month position.

I really hope it works out for my fellow shortlisters - and that you internals are offered a perm possie.

C u soon.

Oz :{ :\

Iguanahead

8th Jun 2004, 12:01

Hi ozflyboy,

That's very disappointing for you. It made me sad to think that your dream was dashed but try to think of it as a stepping stone to something better. I believe things happen for a reason and perhaps you are right where you are meant to be for now.

You never know what will happen in a couple of years. This whole aviation game is a rollercoaster. You can focus on your full time job now and at least your up there doing what you love to do.

Good luck for the future.:ok:

Iguanahead

cloud nine

8th Jun 2004, 12:30

Just heard that some internals ( applicants that applied with blue form) that were on the waitlist received notification today that they are now officially OFF the waitlist.

So I'm guessing anyone that is within the QF Group will be getting the thanks but no thanks letters very soon.

If that is the case, I have nothing to say except "IM DISGUSTED!"

ozskipper

8th Jun 2004, 12:36

I haven't had a call yet , however its only early days (I'm slightly gutted) ....

Will have to wait and see if anything pans out for me.... Like everyone else I've been patiently waiting, but as the good Kath Day-Night would say "I'm champing at the bit"....

ozflyboy

9th Jun 2004, 00:19

Hey guys,

Thanks for your thoughts Iguanahead.....yeah - who knows - whatever is meant to be will be!

For you MEL ppl - the QF lady did also mention that MEL would be an option for me (not that it was any better - in fact, further away for such a short period!)....so you never know - some of you MEL guys are obviously gonna get a call!

It really doesn't look like QF is much of a career option for anyone not already in the system anymore - I mean how can you expect ppl with financial commitments to accept a 10month contract with "no possibilty of an extension - you will finish next May."

Anyway, it has been a fun ride guys......even if the outcome isn't what many of us had hoped for.

How about all of u other externals and those internals who have been posting for the last 16 months.......what have u heard/been offered/decided to do??

Best of luck guys!!

Oz:suspect:

SocialFlyer

9th Jun 2004, 00:37

Hi Ozflyboy

Sorry to hear about the ridiculous offer they made you after waiting for so long. Not sure what QF are thinking (apart from the obvious London Base), but I'm disgusted at the treatment given to you guys. Not only have they made you wait so long, but even worse expect you to start in a week:confused: ?????? Surely they must have some common sense to understand people need some notice, especially when they are not expecting a job offer.

I live by the moto, "Everything happens for a reason", it may be hard to understand now "why" this situation turned out the way it did, but I can assure you all will make sense in the future. I'm not sure if you are currently flying for another carrier, but if so enjoy what you have and try to put behind you this unethical treatment by a "reputable" airline. Always remember, you are obviously a talented individual who shines, this is obviously evident through your abilities to make it this far.

Good Luck

SocialFlyer:ok:

34R

9th Jun 2004, 03:09

There is some positive news to come out of this bad news, at least you now know where you stand, and can finally move on.

As an interested observer who has been watching procedings without any personal vested interest, (apart from my better half also being on said list), emotion has played little part in my contributions to these forums.
It has been excrutiating to see people clinging with their bare fingernails, in the hope of eventually being offered something. These forums are great in that you know you aren't going through this ridiculous process alone, yet in other ways I think they have made things worse for you. I know this place is designed to be a rumour mill, but people desperate for any sort of news read these posts and sadly, believe them. Now that reality is setting in, a lot of hopes and dreams are being crushed. Very Disappointing.

Franck

9th Jun 2004, 03:59

Just wanted to let everyone know I got a call this morning for Mel base. I will be starting 16th June (next Wednesday!). I did not have a full time job so I was able to give notice quickly.

I really do hope that everyone hears something one way or another. The waiting is the worst thing. Good luck to all in whatever you decide to do.

GalleyHag

9th Jun 2004, 08:08

Ozflyboy

That must have been a heart wrenching decision, and yes everything happens for a reason. I have said this before, in the aviation industry things tend to go in circles so hopefully one day things will turn around and you can be assured that the FAAA International Division and long haul crew will be fighting to ensure more off-shore bases are not opened, this is evident from their website.

Qantas are more than happy to give the media information on their plans for off-shore crew to gain public and shareholder support, so I suggest all you guys write to the papers and tell them of your treatment. Qantas hate any negative publicity, QF staff that have done Exceptional will know what I am talking about. So write and tell the papers that your jobs are now going off-shore and the best QF can offer to Australians is an 11 months contract. The papers would really sit up and take notice if they get hundreds of letters from all the people on the short list that have been shafted.

Q-Tee

9th Jun 2004, 08:42

I really do not want to offend ... but calling that a 'ridiculous offer' well, has anyone thought that this is what the future of QF recruitment will be? Permanent positions may never be offered again, so if you wish to fly for QF, then you have to accept what is on offer ..... if you wont accept it, then apply for another airline.

The last 18 months has completely changed the industry, you cannot expect that QF will not change with those changes.

Dissapointing for you guys on the short-list ? yes, I can understand that.

But this is the future for our recruitment, so if you wanna fly with us, then that's what you have to do.... Its a simple choice.

The FAAA will be doing everything to stop this kind of contract work/ overseas bases ..... just pray they succeed..... if not, those who with to fly for QF in the future will have to accept a contract or a casual job ..... harsh, but it's the way it is.

Life was easy when all new recruits we full-time permanent, but those days are over ..... and as the current staff have to deal with this, so do those who wish to be employed in the future .... again, no offence intended.

SocialFlyer

9th Jun 2004, 09:40

Q-Tee,

No offence taken in relation to the "ridiculous offer" comment. When I say that it is a ridiculous offer (contract 10 months) I am referring to the fact that these people have been told that after 10 months there is NO chance they will have a job. How can one justify offering someone this and saying but after 10 months you will have to leave?

I agree that if you dont like the conditions dont apply, but dont forget these people on the waitlist applied thinking it was permanent, there was NO talk of a 10 month contract. Contracts have become a large part of the workforce. In government service much of the work is contract work, however they advertise this and make it clear from application stage, not throw it on you at the end, and even worse give you a 1 week notice to start.

In summary I still think it is a ridiculous offer, however that's just my opinion, and respect peoples may differ!

Cheers

SocialFlyer

QANTASTIC

9th Jun 2004, 09:48

I coulndnt have said it better myself social flyer !!!
If you apply for a job thats what you have applied for !! Not change the job description around !! i cant belive what Q-Tee said !!

go_dj

9th Jun 2004, 10:21

I Believe Q-Tee is right on, besides it was last year that Mr
Dixon said that up to 25% of the Qantas workforce would
be casual or part time in the next few years.

Qantas will have no shortage of starters even though it
is only an 11 month contract, this experience will give
applicants a big leg up for any airline job they apply for
after being with QF.

Mr Seatback 2

9th Jun 2004, 11:01

Q-Tee

Understand your position on this. But SocialFlyer is correct. The nature of the employment now being offered (contract with no option to renew) was never provided at any stage in the recruitment process. On the contrary, full time was indicated many times during my interviews, and nothing different was stated in the follow up emails.

Further, expecting people to up and leave with 1 weeks notice is unreasonable - particularly if you already work for the airline in another division.

All fair and well if people knew these conditions PRIOR to applying (I, for one, wouldn't have bothered in the first place...) - but that wasn't the case.

Also understand that QF has to change with the times, etc. Being an airline, if it expects to survive, it needs to be adaptable.

I just fail to see the logic in not employing people as FA's from other areas within the company purely on the basis of cost. Surely these people are assets on board because of their knowledge of processes around the airline? I know I've not only used my own knowledge of airport and reservation/ticketing knowledge in this manner, but have seen this occur onboard with others from similar backgrounds. Very useful in situations such as delays, stuff ups, etc.

The role of FA has always been considered, in some areas of the airline, as that of an ambassador (given it's high regard and tough selection process within QF) - which is why so many internals apply to escalate their careers and REPRESENT THE AIRLINE THEY WERE/ARE PROUD TO SERVE. To effectively be told "Externals are better to us - until their contracts run out, then the Brits come online" is dumb-founding! The mind is still boggling!!

It is HORRIBLE for the internals (of which I am not) to be told there isn't a job for them (despite their years of service, performance, etc - all which would have been taken into account during their application), but there's a job for someone else off the street (no offence to any contractors by the way)...

THEN for BOTH of these good people to be told "Well...effectively, you can't get a flying job now because we're employing Brits on lower wages." - :confused: :mad: :*

Whatever happened to "People are our priority?" You remember that line - particularly during the print ads for prior FA advertisements. Or did that line get superceded by "That's the spirit - provided you're in an overseas base".

In closing, I wish to make the following clear:
a) I am not bitter and twisted. Even though I am one of the affected (external applicant currently with the QF Group), I reached the point of not caring about my application long ago! It's the people for whom have yet to fly I feel sorry for...so close, yet so far...
b) I think the way these staff, and indeed external contractors, have been treated is abysmal and appalling.

Never forget - for those of you who have been affected by this mess - this whole situation says more about QF than it could ever say about you as individuals. You are all stars for having got so far in the process.

Furthermore, it's proof (in my eyes at least) that if you really want to fly, you all possess the determination (and drive) to reach that dream. If QF don't want you because you cost too much, then go to an airline that will value you.

GO-DJ

Sadly, past airline experience doesn't always mean much in Oz.

Like any airline interview - all depends on who interviews you on the day. Many many ex-fliers have been knocked back by Jet* and DJ over the years - from many different airlines.

Hopefully, those that wish to continue, will succeed in whatever direction they choose.

My thoughts and best wishes are with you all. Here's hoping something positive comes out of this for everyone affected by this debacle.

go_dj

9th Jun 2004, 12:09

Mr Seatback 2

I can see your point of view, but if memory serves me correct
these interviews took place before the SARS outbreak and
Iraq war, since then Singapore Airlines have cut their payroll
as well as others.

So put yourself in Mr Dixons position who is also responsible
to the shareholders in the company, and also look at the many
aviation sites around that are full of the dire and average cabin
crew service stories on longhaul, and you may see the man has got a problem.

It was only last year that the super funds and financial institutions
raised $800 million in 16 hours at $4.20 per share, today the
share price is $3.45.

Finally in the past 3 weeks I have flown 2 sectors up to Asia
with QF, and from my observation too many QF F/As have reached
their use-by date, the service compared to Singapore, Emirates
and Cathay Pacific was dire, IMHO QF needs young, fresh and
enthusiastic cabin crew the likes who fly for Impulse and DJ whom
in my opinion are fantastic.

My 2 cents

GalleyHag

9th Jun 2004, 12:19

What was advertised in the SMH back in 2002 was "Expressions of Interest" in Permanent, Fixed Term and Casual positions with Qantas in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth. No mention of LH or SH, I also believe the application on staffcv also has a section where you indicate the type of work you would do and base preference.

It is sad that permanent positions cannot be made available to internals in this instance, however if limited permanent positions are available such as with short haul recently they should go to the divisions that have pre-existing agreements with Qantas such as the divisional transfer agreement and regional progression. If after that has been actioned there are no permanent positions left, sorry but that is the situation as it stands at present, QF have an obligation to honour certain agreements with other cabin crew departments such as the above. They are under no obligation to any other department that doesnt have an agreement with them.

This should come as NO surpise to anyone it was in July last year that Mr Dixon made his speech about the type of employment being offered in the future and percentage ratios for casuals, contract and permanent. There should be no shocks here, all this has been debated before in this forum.

Lets hope things change and put faith in the LH crew and their union.

Mr Seatback 2

9th Jun 2004, 14:37

Go Dj

It may be that I've stayed up past my bedtime, but I don't get your point.

On one hand you indicate that the situation the shortlisters find themselves in is a result of SARS, Iraq, etc. And GalleyHag indicated (quite rightly), that Dixon has had contract work, etc. on the radar for quite some time.

All true. Don't disagree with that, as it's all fact.

However...

Finally in the past 3 weeks I have flown 2 sectors up to Asia with QF, and from my observation too many QF F/As have reached their use-by date, the service compared to Singapore, Emirates and Cathay Pacific was dire, IMHO QF needs young, fresh and enthusiastic cabin crew the likes who fly for Impulse and DJ whom in my opinion are fantastic.

As much as I agree with you to some extent with what you say there, is the way to treat people (the ones replacing those that are old have 'reached their use by date' to say "well, don't get too comfortable, because in 11 months you're getting the boot?" - doesn't that just provide a temporary solution to the problem?

It certainly won't shift those who you deem to be past their 'use by date' - if anything, now is when they'll be digging their heels in even more to stay!

As much as you should blend good fiscal management of your company, you should also consider how you treat your employees - because how you treat THEM is inevitably how they treat YOUR CUSTOMERS!

Hardly what you call motivating, and some may well argue (quite rightly) that this takes the contractors' eye off providing a good service - after all, what's to lose, eh? If I'm going to get the boot, why the hell bother?? Looking over your shoulder and counting the time for 11 months (which, I might add will clock up VERY quickly with long haul flying) isn't what you'll find in the average Employee Motivation aisle of your local bookstore.

In the past, the contractors would be 'on edge', because there was always the 'dangling carrot' of permanent work at the end of the contract. Not anymore it would seem, so I'm curious to know how things work out.

Fingers crossed, by then, positives start to emerge for those other than the accountants and shareholders (like, the people who serve the customers who FLY on the airline).

GalleyHag

Agree with you totally re: Cabin Crew agreements, divisional transfers, etc. 100%.

However...

The internal staff have a similar agreement (obviously, lower on the food chain of Divisional and CP Agreements) where they can only be offered permanent work if applying internally.

Is it fair on one hand, to keep your own staff dangling for so long, only to turn around and say "thanks but there's no work for you", but there's plenty of work for Adecco crew and external staff (for 11 months), before we ship THEIR jobs to the UK? I think I know your answer on this one!

Where's the value? Where's the sense of promotion (WITHIN YOUR OWN COMPANY) to be the 'ambassador' of your airline? Or (quite cynical of me I know) is it a case of 'whoever is the lowest bidder'?

Sad state of affairs when you have to start looking at the competition to get into flying these days.

Now Look...

I understand, probably more than most, how quickly and violent change can occur in this industry. Hell, I'm on my 3rd airline (and 5th uniform).

However, if there's one thing I believe any company should do is look after their employees!

Now, in this instance, permanent jobs are not always going to be available. However, I do think the way this whole system has been handled has been appaling!

Out of all the airline crew I know around the world, I don't think I've seen or heard of a recruitment being conducted so badly. And I've heard of some shockers. Yes, it is said, and it's not unheard of in the airline world. Usually, however, staff WITHIN the airline are treated better than this.

Putting aside Iraq and SARS, I believe the drive for profitability within QF has driven it away from service (internal and external) and more into worrying about shareholders, at the expense of it's staff.

Correct me people, but I don't recall problems of this nature occurring while Jimmie Bowtie was at the helm. And QF was profitable then as I remember.

Floaty

9th Jun 2004, 16:10

Hi guys! My 2 cents here: I'm F/A here in the UK and I've been living in both Australia and the UK so I'm somehow a tad aware of the job market in both countries (I believe).

A couple of points first:
I was discussing with someone at QF the other night about the treatment the crew receive here in the UK compared to Australia. Of course I am not in a position to speak about every airline and every contract but there is a clear fact: our unions here in the UK aren't worth much! I really wonder what sort of package QANTAS is gona work out for their crew based in London next year.

For your info, generalizing a little, new entry CC pay in London is appauling and treatment is far below expectations. For example, a receptionist in a hairdresser salon makes 20% more money than a junior cabin crew on a permanent contract with 2 years experience. So does the guy selling tickets in the tube station!
Since I've been CC here, I've had problems paying bills and cannot even get a credit card or a cheque book! Forget about saving for the future!
Some crew have even turned down promotions because the money is so bad it's not worth the responsibility!!
Cabin Managers/Flight Supervisors don't make much more either and complain that after 15 years service in the airline industry they still cannot afford a mortgage!
As if this wasn't enough, the airlines have the right not to give you sick pay if they consider you're sick too often (which means more than 3 times in 6 months).

Finally, when you receive a contract it is most of the time a temporary one, subject to probation period (fair enough) and airline's needs...(??) This means that you receive a very quick training, wear that only one uniform (1 jacket / 1 skirt) you'll never be able to dryclean, then get thrown on line after your supernumerary flight with no support at all and there you work your bum off throughout summer, hoping desperately to have pleased enough seniors and made a good impression to secure yourself a permanent contract... until October, when the airline says "oh sorry! we don't need you anymore! But if you get a short-term job at Marks&Spencer, we might re-hire you in spring"... of course for another temporary contract...
(this is a typical situation with charter companies, be aware!).

There are only a small bunch of airlines -but of big envergure- having the decency to offer permanent employment from day one. These are British Airways, Virgin Atlantic and few others.

Recently I've been interviewed for a job with a small charter airline London-Gatwick based. They only fly 737/757, give no airline benefits and have no night-stops. I was required to sign a £600 bond (about 1600 AUD) for the cost of the training, in case I wouldn't honour my temporary contract of 6 months!!!! Is this the future of cabin crew????? :sad:

Now, I do understand the situation with QF in Oz is not exactly what it should be and trust me I understand your frustration, I've been there many times! An airline should have some sort of committment towards its employees, but I also believe QANTAS has done pretty well so far. At times, the market is not as per expectations and a big company such as QANTAS may have to take decisions which may not make everyone happy (such as recruiting externally at a lower pay, with more flexible contracts and no extra admin costs). I don't know QANTAS' situation but I would imagine the company is adapting to the market situation... old times are over, aviation has changed, competitors are stronger... did you know Virgin Atlantic has plans to fly London-Sydney from end of next year? Maybe this is one of the reasons why QANTAS is adopting this attitude... (not that I like it!)
I'm not a genius in market research so forgive me if I got all this wrong...

Btw Seatback2, I tend to disagree with your statement:
"As much as you should blend good fiscal management of your company, you should also consider how you treat your employees - because how you treat THEM is inevitably how they treat YOUR CUSTOMERS!".
=>
I never treated customers poorly due to the treatment I was given by management. This is not fair and the attitude is wrong. When you're up there, you do your best because this is the person you are and nothing should demotivate you! I know it's hard but your standards should never be less than your expectations if you were yourself a passenger. Don't let anyone and anything damage the quality of your work. When you stop believing you can reach perfection, then you definitely won't!
Besides, I know you personally, therefore I know what you are capable of! :p

FJ :8

flytheplanemay

9th Jun 2004, 19:03

I just want to wish all the shortlisters the best of luck, whether it be LH, SH, Temp or Perm!

Mr Seatback 2

10th Jun 2004, 01:24

Agree 100% with you Floaty on personal standards, etc. and how you are treated by management shouldn't affect how you work.

But if you read Go Dj's post, maybe the actions of management are taking their toll on selected long haul crew?

For someone from a marketing background, Dixon has an awful way of speaking and treating his employees.

Maybe he's forgotten, but employees are stakeholders in his company too - just as important as shareholders, as they direct the future of the company in the frontline.

GalleyHag

10th Jun 2004, 07:32

Mr Seatback 2

I agree QF should look after their own before anyone else, its not fair that Australian cabin crew positions are going off-shore when all staff have contributed to the success of the airline in such tough times.

However, the divisional transfer agreement is set at 50 per year from Short to Long and vice versa. We all know about the progression agreement which up until recently has never been activated without permanent recruitment, however this was a huge EBA issue with Eastern so its kind of linked, if you know what I mean.

When it comes to other staff (internals) there is no such agreement, they put out a blue notice and staff have the opportunity to apply. When the notice was put out they did think permanent positions would be available, we know the rest SARS etc then the board position changed in terms of the type of employment offered.

Blue internal notices are put out all the time and on occassion these are withdrawn or due to other factors the position's are no longer available. In this case due to the large number of internals that were short listed we are hearing about it.

When I was at eastern QF recruited fixed term crew and casuals into short haul but QF refused to take progression even though they had taken hundreds of crew into these positions. Any regional crew member will tell you that this has been effecting them for over 3 years, its only now that the word is out that people are becoming more aware of the effects of QF's policy on permanent positions.

Mr Seatback 2

10th Jun 2004, 09:14

GalleyHag

Agree with you totally. Never a truer word said - particularly this...

I agree QF should look after their own before anyone else, its not fair that Australian cabin crew positions are going off-shore when all staff have contributed to the success of the airline in such tough times.

However, I am sure you will also agree that the preferential treatment afforded to overseas contract labour over their own staff is, at least in my view, ethically flawed.

I would like to make clear that I have never endorsed, nor suggested, that internals should be treated any more favourably than those on Career Progression or Divisional Transfer agreements. As you have said, these are long-standing agreements that have been formally made to facilitate movement between flying divisions.

In short, the way the majority have been treated by this whole grand plan is wrong.

Hopefully, amends can be made in the future through increased Career Progression transfers etc. as you alluded to in your post.

ozflyboy

10th Jun 2004, 09:57

Thanks for your thoughts Galley Hag.....yes - heart wrenching is one way to describe it!

Just glad that I took a "fill in" flying job which I am enjoying(full time, mind you!) whilst I "waited" for Qf to do something.....I must say that the treatment of employees within my current company is a hell of a lot better than that which Qf seems to be dishing out!

That Letter to the Editor idea is great - let's do it guys!

I'd be interested to hear what everyone else has decided to do now.....come on, there were soooo many of us out there guys!!

Hope to see you all around in the sky somewhere..........

Take care

Oz xox

Floaty

10th Jun 2004, 10:33

Well, personally I can't wait to apply and fly with you guys! It's gona be a breath of fresh air to have you Aussies over here!
As far as I know QANTAS intend to offer 60 % of the LHR jobs to Australian staff and only 40 % to UK new entrants... If you see it the way I do, there will be a very good relocation package for the Aussies, a salary in GBP (look at the exchange rate!!), a UK work permit and seniority/rank should be maintained!

Okay, okay, I too would rather live in Australia but I still see this as an opportunity!

One question: how many people will be made redundant if they refuse to relocate? Anybody knows?

FJ

yellow rocket

10th Jun 2004, 15:34

Shonky and unprofessional.

ozskipper

11th Jun 2004, 03:45

Hmm, well after weeks of angsting over it - Qantas called me today to offer an 11 month contract.

Either MEL or SYD .... I chose MEL.

Although not permanent its an opportunity I couldn't miss - if anything just for the experience of flying.

So I start on 30 June in Melbourne apparently - EP's up in Sydney and possibly service training in Melbourne.

Anyone else starting in Melbourne on that day?

Also, HR gave me the rates of pay however would someone mind giving me an indication of what you can on average expect to earn per fortnight for a LH FA with allowances etc.... (Have to do some financial planning!)

Finally, can I just say how appreciative I am of all the advice & support I have received on this board - if this represents the general helpfulness of the people in the industry then I'm glad I'll be surrounded by you!

Mr Seatback 2

11th Jun 2004, 04:06

Congratulations to you Ozskipper - I'm sure you'l have a blast!

Make the most of the opportunity - only then can you have the most fun!

peanut pusher

11th Jun 2004, 22:08

MAM people, you will be sent a letter this last week offering an application for fulltime employment.
Congratulations you really deserve it and have my sincere thanks for the great job you have done since day 1.

PS Floaty, it was nice having a beer with you in LHR, see you next week, call you when I get to London.

SocialFlyer

12th Jun 2004, 00:53

Hi Guys,

So MAM guys will be offered Full Time employment. I was under the impression that Qantas was not offering any full time employment???

So does the Permanent Employment of MAM Casuals mean that there will be more Progression for the Regionals???

Just when I think I've heard it all, Qantas does soemthing to suprise me again!!!!!!!

Cheers

SocialFlyer

PS.. Goodluck to the MAM applicants who apply for full time. It would be nice to finally have some kind of stability.

Mr Seatback 2

12th Jun 2004, 01:13

Permanent employment (from MAM) does include progression from regionals...however, CP has already started (presumeably ahead of MAM's converting to permanent).

It's good to hear that the MAM's are being given the opportunity to go permanent.

It's sad, however, to think that the only way into a flying career off the street has to be casual or contract first.

Mr Seatback 2

12th Jun 2004, 04:09

You know, the more I think about it, the stranger this whole thing sounds.

Firstly, I would like to make the following very explicit:
1) I have nothing against MAM casuals - on the contrary, I believe they do a great job!
2) I also have nothing against them being offered permanent work - makes sense, given that they have a work history and they are already trained for the role.
3) I don't doubt for a minute Peanut Pusher's info.

BUT...this is where it sounds odd that they are now being offered permanent work:

1) It is my understanding (from friends that have attended recent MAM interviews, etc) that recent applicants have been told that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES will they EVER be offered permanent flying work with QF whilst working for MAM. Presumeably it's one rule for everyone?
2) On one hand, QF is saying to it's internal staff that there are no permanent flying positions - and yet, on the other, it's offering work to contractors who are NOT QF employees (no offence to any MAM people reading this, but you're not!)

Is it just me that see's the lack of transparency in this process?

How do you justify offering permanent flying work to contractors (which, essentially, would be like offering NJS/Airlink staff permanent flying work) - when you've told another set of CURRENT QF employees that there ISN'T any permanent flying work for them?

Although I can appreciate the cost aspect of it, it isn't as though there aren't the resources for training schools to be conducted. Hell, we've already seen a number have been scheduled PRE-end of financial year (when QF previously went on record saying there were no training schools to run for Australian crew prior to the end of financial year - putting Adecco training schools to one side). And they were scheduled with little notice (as indicated on this, and other, threads).

The whole scenario just gets stranger by the day - particularly when a lot of the newer MAM people are being told they'll never (in no uncertain terms) be made permanent whilst at MAM.

Or is it the case that QF are making the rules up as they go??

lexus1

12th Jun 2004, 04:23

Has anyone from MAM received the offer? I think you will find it is not a specific offer for a permanent position. Maybe a wait list or offer of 11 contract or both. Any MAMs got more info?

QANTASTIC

12th Jun 2004, 06:02

It would be interesting if we did get some more info from any MAM person !! As far as I was aware any casuel positions can not go over 11 months ..If it does these people must be placed as full time staff !! If anyone does know of any MAM contractor being placed in a permanant role please advise us ..It would be interesting !! I think the QF HR departmant are going to have a lot to answear for as far as I am aware as to what my manager has advised me. At Qantas we have a strict policy on staff issued placing people on a short list casuel work force and transfer of employmant. My manager has discussed these issued in depth so we will see what happens ..But good luck to the casuel MAM people if they get permanant..If they decide to extend you beyound 11 months I would be asking questions ..Lets here from other MAM people ..If not lets get more info from them and share it around,,Mr SeatBack 2 i have PM you ! Have a great day guys!!
Ps as everybody received there letter of thanks but no thanks ..I think Gally Hag mentioned her friend at checkin received one but I didnt hear if anybody else internaly had received one!!

lexus1

12th Jun 2004, 09:12

If such a promise exists lets hear from some MAM people who can confirm. My understanding is that MAM casuals have never been promised a permanent job if Qantas offers permanent jobs.

OZcabincrew

12th Jun 2004, 09:24

Hi Guys!

I am a MAM casual out of Perth. Just to give you an answer to some speculation etc. i received a letter from QF the other day advising that there was a change in the procedure for MAM Casual Flight Attendants to be considered for Flight Attendant positions with Qantas. Basically every year, MAM casuals have the opportunity to put their names down for Qantas permanent positions that may arise, this lasts for a 12 months period, at the end of that 12 months, you will put in another application for the next 12 months. It is not an easy way into a permanent position as much as i'd like it to be, it is simply letting us skip the whole staffcv thing with an invitation to the selection process, so MAM casuals would still need to go through the selection process, but i know when we started, there was no statement made that MAM casuals would NOT be offered a permanent position, unless it's something that's just come in for new MAM employees, but by judging by this letter we've received, it covers all MAM casuals, old and new. It is also allowing us to put in an expression of interest in for a 10 month contract with QF L/H.
I'm gathering though, that anyone that takes the 10 month L/H contract, there S/H position will be given to one of the new casuals going through the selection at the moment, therefore leaving them no job at the end of the 10 months with L/H.

Oz

GalleyHag

13th Jun 2004, 04:40

I have to agree with Mr Seatback it is unacceptable that MAM casuals are offered permanent positions over internal staff. However on this occassion it is all about timing and filling flying hours quickly.

Short haul offered MAM casuals out of Sydney (not sure of other bases) 9 month fixed term contracts, not many if any were taken up, therefore leaving many flying hours to fill. Regional progression has been activated and by all accounts MAM casuals (not sure of the numbers) will be offered permanent positions in order to fill the void. No initial training is required therefore enabling QF to crew the flights. Remember casuals are under no obligation to accept work leaving QF not really knowing if they would be able to meet their crewing requirements.

I thought regional progression without permanent external recruitment was a bit to good to be true.

MAM have always told their staff that permanent positions would not be available, however the FAAA fight hard on their behalf for permanent positions over external (and obviously internal) applicants. They will always say this to cover themselves, otherwise crew would always be asking when they will be made permanent when in fact they have NO grounds to expect this, they are employed by a contract crewing company not QF.

Midnight-63 your friend is referring to the offer to be interviewed for any permanent positions that may arise not be directly offered permanent employment. MAM crew that joined some 2 years ago were given this undertaking.

Also, as Ozcabincrew notes MAM casuals HAVE to be interviewed for any permanent positions with QF they do not automatically walk into them. So if any potential MAM casuals are reading this my advice is be good girls and boys because QF will be looking into your record when applying for permanent positions in the future.

In this instance it all comes down to timing, QF need the crew and need them now, therefore by converting MAM casuals it solves the problem, whereas it would take far to long for external applicants to be trained and on-line.

Mr Seatback 2

13th Jun 2004, 06:12

Now it's all starting to make sense...thank you everyone for your considered and thoughtful responses.

Sort of makes sense, if you get my drift!

yellow rocket

13th Jun 2004, 07:15

Have to agree with MS2.

It's the total lack of transparency of process that has diminished the confidence I have in QF recruitment. The succession to permanent is a reasonable expectation of anyone who would accept a full time job in any industry.

Why are the opportunities not spelt out in black and white like any other professional workplace.

Iguanahead

13th Jun 2004, 11:10

Just my opinion but I'm guessing that QF would also be hesitant to give internals crew positions as then they would be responsible for re-employing for the positions left open.

I imagine there are a lot of applicants from many different departments, and if they were to give these people preference over externals they would be making a lot more work for themselves.

I'm not saying it's right, just that on the business side of things you can see why they would do it.

And if that was the case you would want to think twice about joining the company in any other department other than the one you wish to work for. It's very sad that loyalty to the job and company you work for is a thing of the past, just faceless numbers that can dispensed at will now.

I'm glad I got to enjoy some of "the good old days" when you felt you were the company, and that every person mattered.

yellow rocket

17th Jun 2004, 23:24

Some of us externals still haven't had a rejection letter or a phone call.

How the hell am I supposed to turn it down if noone rings me!

Cart_tart

18th Jun 2004, 02:00

Where are you based yellow rocket?
I am in PER and I haven't heard anything either! I know of a bunch of other people here on the list that haven't heard anything either.
Maybe something is in the pipeline.
They are apparentally short staffed here!!

missleadfoot

18th Jun 2004, 10:59

I feel for all you guys who have or have not been offered the contract with QF L/H and I have read all your posts. If it was me in the situation many of you are in I would jump at the chance to fly even knowing there will not be any future employment after the contract, but who knows what will happen after 10 months. I left full time employment in the past to operate a short flying contract and once that was over I went back to the real world, albeit thinking that contract went way too quick and was sad when it was all over. But if you love flying and thats what you do (I mean that by it's your chosen career), you really dont have to think about it, you take any opportunity offered.

When you think about it Australia has been very lucky in regard to F/A employment (with exception to the Ansett thing). Look at the UK and USA, for years they have been employing contract, short-long term crew who are tossed once the season is over. I understand it's not fair but it was only time that it would start happening here. The UK offer flying jobs for the summer season only etc, the crew know what they are applying for, and many get re employed the next season. Unfortunately it's reality and Australia has just caught up. Airlines are businesses which are there to make a proffit and I dont see anything wrong with that. Once the slow season sets in they will see themselves over staffed if they employ full time permanent. Casuals fill the gap. Most other industries have had this in place for years, hire a temp to fill a position, no one seems to complain about that situation. The airline industry is just doing that. They dont need extra staff permanantly. I do however believe that contracts should receive the travel benefits permanents get during their contract.

On a good side though, if you do a contract with QF or anyone, if you have a good record there should be no reason why you should not be considered for permanent employment if they decide to go that way in the future.

Re the internal recruitment, it works both ways, I have worked with many cabin crew who have applied internally for ground positions only to be knocked back also. I dont think its a case of favouring the externals, you were selected for your current position and maybe (this is going to sound harsh) you are not suitable for a different position in the company. I know many F/A's who got in just to do that, "get in with the company" so they can then move to another preffered position. It just doesn't work like that. Some people I worked with never wanted to be F/A's in the first place, they just wanted to get in so they could apply internally for ground, they were disapointed.

Anyway a friend of mine has just been given the nod for QF L/H MEL and starts training soon, she is leaving another airline job to do this and I wish her all my very best.