Getting FI(R) rating and earning reward??

[UKPPL]

As a JAR PPL(A) IMC, Night, with approx 170hrs. Apart from attending/passing a FI course, covering the correct flying/theory sylabus, are there any other pre-requisites you must have in order to add a FI rating onto a std JAR PPL(A)? ie. Minimum hours etc etc.

I read in one book that you must also have passed the CPL(A) exams, but I think this is incorrect(??)

(PS - I appreciate that as a PPL(A) holder, without a CPL(A)I wouldn't be able to earn reward from instruction).

On another note - don't you think it's crazy that you must have a CPL or ATPL in order to earn reward from flying instruction? Although I'm sure having a CPL or ATPL makes you a better pilot all round. Why do you have to go through all the hassle of a CPL or ATPL if all you ever want to do is flying instruction??

[FNG]

I am putting on my tin hat for this one, as I am about to express the view that there might be something good about JAR. One of the consequences of it may be that there are fewer people doing the instructor hour building route. From this it may follow that instructors become rarer, obtain higher status and better pay (I write not as an instructor but as a grateful recipient of excellent instruction from people who deserve better than what the current system gives them). A further consequence may be that the quality of PPL training improves, as there will be less chance of studes being shovelled through the system by bored hour builders who don't really care about flying and/or don't really know how to fly themselves.

None of this answers UKPPL's question about the route to instructor qualifications, sorry. I'm not a big fan of the proposed new UK mini-PPL, but it seeems to me that there ought to be a tailored route to instructing which does not involve all of the commercial exams (at least not those which are directed to flying in the airways environment).

I only want to fly for fun, the only hostie I want to chase is my wife (excellent in-flight catering on Beagle Pups these days)and I will only get into a commercial aircraft if I'm assured that there will be a nice young man called Kenneth handing me a martini, but if in several years time I were to be less busy at work and had lots of GA experience, I could see myself enjoying introducing others to the joys of floating sideways across East Anglia whilst looking an an upside down map and shouting "No that's Fakenham, er, Swaffham, er...., let's give Marham a bell". Is there any move afoot to revise the route to PPL instructing, or is it likely to remain the same for some time to come?

[TooHotToFly]

Extract from JAR-FCL 1 (slightly edited):

Before being permitted to begin an approved course of training for a FI(A) rating an applicant shall have:

Completed 200 hours of flight time of which 150 hours must be PIC if only holding a PPL(A).

Met the knowledge requirements for a CPL(A) (written exams)

30 hours on SEP aircraft of which 5 must be in the preceeding six months to passing the pre-entry flight test.

Recieved at least 10 hours instrument flight instruction (no more than 5 in a simulator).

Completed 20 hours PIC cross-country including a flight totalling at least 300nm and landing at two airfields other than your departure airfield.

Passed a pre-entry flight test with a suitably qualified FI within six months of starting the course.

Hope this helps.

[ULLRICH]

UKPPL, No I don't think that it's crazy to be required to have a CPL before earning reward from flying instruction.

What I do think is crazy is people like yourself who are prepared to spend the best part of £20,000 to work for nothing. Oh yes I know there's plenty of people out there like yourself, who 'just fancy doing a little instructing' the flying clubs are full of them, usually old men, who are too lazy to do the CPL course.

Now considering many airlines want 1000 hours at least from applicants, one of the best ways of doing this it to instruct.
Whilst there are people like you about willing to work for nothing what chance have people like myself got of finding a job ?
Or let me put it to you another way,
Let's say you are an employer looking for staff, you have 2 equally qualified candidates, yet one is willing to work for nothing, which one will you employ ?

When will it ever end ? What next ? Paying to instruct ? :rolleyes:



[This message has been edited by ULLRICH (edited 15 November 2000).]

[UKPPL]

Ullrich, I think you didn't read my post fully, plus I didn't perhaps explain myself well.

Until today I didn't realise you had to have a pass in the CPL exams in order to start a FI course.

I do intend to do a ATPL (or at least part of it as I probably won't do the IR, so will end up with a CPL(A)). I'll be doing the ATPL exams and then the CPL(A) flight test (whilst holding down a very demanding non-aviation job). What I had wanted to do however, was get my FI first so I could instruct whilst going through the grind of the ATPL exams.

I have to agree fully with FNG. Just because someone has an ATPL doesn't mean they are automatically a good flying instructor. I have had the good fotune to be taught by some excellent career pilot ATPL FI's and will be eternally grateful for their time, effort and skill, most ATPL FI's are probably great instructors. However, I've also experienced the ****ty end of the stick in terms of un-interested, grossly arrogant and in one case lethally-dangerous (God help the passengers he's flying around now and I'm not joking) ATPL FI's who would struggle to get employed in any other professional industry.

You may be saddened to hear that after getting a CPL(A) and FI, I probably won't be trying to get an airline job. Why - because I'm too old (34), have done my time travelling abroad on business away from my familly and after slogging my guts out I'm in the position where I earn approx twice as much as you will from a decent flying job (... if you get one). I'd like to be able to give flying instruction for my enjoyment and to give flying instruction at a level and enthusiasm that the students deserve.

I respect the career path you have chosen and I wish you well, good luck, but please don't post such claptrap regarding my chosen route. If I wish to instruct for zero pay because I enjoy it, that's my choice. If the industry you've decided to enter is so bizzare that you've got to spend ££££ on training yourself and then you have to work for peanuts and build hours before someone will comtemplate giving you a real job, that's not my fault, blame it on the system.

BTW do you really think you will get a decent career flying job with most of your 1000 hours in a C152/PA28 at a flying school?

[FNG]

I agree wholeheartedly with the observations made by UKPPL. It is indeed regrettable that instructors are made to work for bunce, but that's the daftness of the system.
Blokes with an interest in instructing but no interest in commercial flying are unlikely ever to pose a threat to you Ullrich, as there would never be many of them and they would probably only be doing part-time teaching at the smaller, enthusiast-oriented clubs. They certainly wouldn't be contending for instructor slots at the commercial trainers.

Such blokes already exist anyway: For example I know of at least two RAF guys (non-aircrew) who hold civvie QFI tickets and instruct for fun at the weekends. They are rewarded with the usual instructor's ration of brightly coloured beads, stale doughnuts etc. but they do not care as they exchange these for yellow frothy fluids when the long day of lufting is done. It is a drag for them to have to hold and maintain CPL qualifications which they never use.
Take a pill of chilling, please.

[BWAVE]

FOR A PPL TO INSTRUCT IS THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND.

[FNG]

Nice one Bwave, lurk from July and then wade in with that well judged, balanced, sensitive, thought provoking maiden post. Keep em coming: this place needs more debate of that high standard.

[LowNSlow]

Nicely put FNG. BWAVE, until the advent of the BCPL (a lot of which were awarded under grandfather rights to PPL FI's initially) virtually all of the FI's around were PPL's. Strangely enough the UK wasn't littered with piled up Cessnas and Pipers and a lot of the PPL FI's did manage to get to drive jets in the end.

[The Flying I]

Latest 'Flyer' mag just through the door has something about this, and a suggestion that NPPL instructors should do a subset of CPL exams rather than all of them, and not in the usual stressed out way of grouping them together.

[TooHotToFly]

I think it's fairly obvious that someone instructing people for a PPL should have a higher level of knowledge and skill then that achieved by a PPL.

The full CPL exams are too much though if all you are going to do is instruct. Why do you need to know which direction the wind is likely to be blowing from in East Africa during winter?

There's a lot of work though involved in weeding out what's relevant and coming up with instructor specific exams. Can the CAA be bothered?

[UKPPL]

I can almost guarantee 100% that the CAA will totally alter the requirements for a FI rating early in 2002. Probably making the whole process easier, cheaper and more logical.

How do I know this...

Cos' that's just when I'll have finished doing my ATPL theory exams!!!!!!!

Call me cynical or what <G>

[BWAVE]

I cast my bait and hooked a fish

As someone who considers Flight Instruction a Profession rather than a hobby or hour builder (Unfortunately the latter is sometimes a necessity)I take my chosen profession seriously

I have come accross PPLs who are be more capable than some CPLs and only lack the exam passes but still dont think they should take the bread from a CPLs mouth

[RVR800]

Some commuter airline pilots
work for free to hours build in the states

Oh no its worse than that they actually pay
the airline for the priviledge

You could pay the student !

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Good for UKPPL wanting to instruct, but please don't knock those of us that do it for a living. If I had a private income and wanted to have a go at the sort of work that is your day job, you might get a bit pissed off if I undercut your position by doing it for nothing.

[Noggin]

The requirement to have CPL level knowledge to instruct is an ICAO requirement which for some reason the UK ignored for many years. The BCPL was the start of rationalisation.

Instructors working for nothing, is really down to the law of supply and demand, whilst pilots want hours they will use the instructor route to achieve that end.

Helicopter and Microlight instructors don't get paid peanuts and most of them only have PPLs.

[FNG]

If it's an ICAO requirement, that pretty much settles it. On the general principle, though, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that instructors should not be qualified to a higher standard than their students; the question is whether the form of higher qualification presently used is the best or most appropriate one.

Interesting to hear that helo instructors may still be PPLs. Isn't ICAO miffed by this? Or is the theory that as all helicopters are destined to crash anyway there's no point in training up the instructors?

Hey wobbletop blokes, stop throwing things, I was only kidding!

[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 22 November 2000).]