Working for free

[foxmoth]

A colleage was telling me that the Harvard setup at Shoreham had called him up the other day.
Apparently they are running short of suitable instructors for their operation and wanted him to come and do some for them. when he asked about pay they seemed to think he should be happy to do it for free !!
I only instruct because I enjoy it, but I don't think ANYONE should be instructing for less than the going rate, if only to protect the rate for those that have to earn from it.
(just as I think BA retirees should not be taking low salaries to boost their pensions - it dosn't help those of us who are trying to make a living from the job)

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Perhaps the laws of supply and demand don't operate in Shoreham. Seems to me that if they can't find the staff, they ought to pay a wage to get someone to do the job. Only got themselves to blame if they haven't got anyone.

[JJflyer]

NONONONONO... Please don't work for free.
That is wrong. You should be compnesated for your troubles and time wether it be money or food.

Besides there should be no need for anyone to work free anymore.

JJ

[grade_3]

Just for interests sake, what would you guys consider "fair" compensation to be?

Just askin'


Grade 3

[HighandTight]

Just asking? really!

Well as an instructor I'm paid £12 p.h.
Hows that for a starting point.

Got to agree with the others - working for free undermines everyone else that's trying to get fair pay and conditions.

[grade_3]

I was "Just askin'" because I know some people are sensitive about what they get paid! It is also a good way for others reading the thread to find out more about what is "fair compensation". If they know what to expect, *they* won't work for free, will they?

FWIW, as a grade 3 instructor in Aust. I get approximately $20 per/flying hour. Works out pretty similar to £12 p/hr. Not working for free, never have and never will. So there! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

Seriously, I was asking because I was not sure that $20 per flying/hour is considered "fair" by others in the industry. Think of it as a relatively inexperienced person trying to find out some further information to help him on his way. Nothing more, nothing less.

Summary: [i]I do NOT work for nothing, never have and never will![i/].


Grade 3

(who, incidently, is interested in making a long-ish term career out of instructing/teaching. Definately *not* going to undermine his own welfare!)

[juswonnafly]

Ah, that old chesnut!

I agree that to work for free undermines the value of the rest of us.

I get 12 quid an hour and that is bad enough!

I worked out that this year I have averaged £40 per day.

No wonder we all leg it as fast as we can!

Now if only we could form an instructors union.......just a thought

JWF :) :) :)

[HighandTight]

Grade_3 - Apologies then!

I've recently met several people who think they should work for nothing, and that those of us who don't are greedy and do not deserve jobs!( I was sorely tempted to punch one but its difficult at 3000' in a light a/c).

Instructing is great fun and maybe more people would make a career of it if they were paid a living wage.Still at least you get to fly Down Under!

[XENA]

Grade three, twenty bucks an hour is pretty close to nothing, and is less than two thirds of what you and everyone else with your qualifications should be getting under the Award. So I'm afraid you and your employer are still undermining those who need to work for the award rate, and therefore is using you to undercut their competitors.
A bit un-Australian, methinks.

[chicken6]

From a Kiwi

What is "the Award"? Sounds like a way to shut down most small operators by forcing them to pay more than they can afford.

(That should get a few responses ;))



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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

[Msjj]

It looks like I am the only one here being paid the award rate just over $30 an hour. If the company can not afford to pay the award they should not be operating. They are breaking the law and pocketing what they should be paying you for their annual holiday!!!!!

Some one obviously on day said 'I will work for less money than you currently pay' from there a precedance was set, now a lot of people suffer. If you are prepared to work for less than award you probably less than an award standard pilot!!!!!!

[chicken6]

Now THAT'S going to get a few

Here's one

<rant ON>
Welcome to line training Msjj. Just because you live in Brissy and fly from a sunny airport, no doubt with shiny shoes and pressed uniform doesn't mean everyone else in the world does. There are people who don't know where to go because their instructors abandoned them for money and they ended up with five "full time" instructors before their PPL, and there are some who had the "luxury" of one or two on the way to CPL. Either way, it doesn't make a difference to how well they fly, or instruct, and NEITHER DOES MONEY (above a certain "survivability" limit).

The amount of information absorbed by the student and the quality of their flying relates to the instructor's pay how? That is surely our benchmark, the ability of the student after 5 hours to go solo, to glide it in from almost anywhere, to actually put it right down in a FLWOP and stop before the fence at the other end.

It looks like you *might* be the only one being paid the award rate (which is double mine). That doesn't mean you're earning it. And it sure as hell doesn't mean your company is the only one of all of ours that should be operating! Some food for thought - if there were no GA operators operating any more because they could only afford one Instructor and a Boss who are then overstressed sending people solo while flying at the same time, where would you go for your cross countries? Do you honestly think that there would be many little unattended airports left? I know ours certainly wouldn't be, and we've got two runways and two reasonably large training organisations here. If we were both forced to pay over $30/hr, even just $30/flying hour, not duty hours, the airport would probably not exist in ten years time. As it is it's tenuous, and the people who run organisations (eg aeroclubs) who can afford bloody good instructors but can't pay them in money deserve more than being told what to spend their money on by someone who doesn't live on some food, lots of fresh air and freedom. For example, our Chief Flying instructor doesn't have annual holidays, and he's been and gone before 0800 almost every morning to keep the ship running. The two part timers here (including me) get enough flying to keep current in eight types, and a freebie now and then. That's the kind of place and person I want to work for, not someone who thinks people are personnel. You can have your money if it's that important to you, I'll have the Cub rating, the Tiger Moth rating, the scenics, the good students who pay for it themselves, the club trips and competitions, the hangar parties, the quite comfortable couch by the kitchen. If I ever get tired of this (how?), then I'll go fly for someone else who has fun flying. But pay is a threshold for me - enough to keep me going at the moment and the fun and work don't stop. The Law is there for guidance, not rigid adherence. If the cops were called to every single violation of every rule, we would need to pay another 20% more police because there is simply too much. Same with instructing, it's only the real screwballs that are consistently dangerous and they're easy to spot. </rant OFF>

Safe flying (and fun!)


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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

At an airport where there are several flying schools competing with one another, there are those who pay their instructors fairly and legally, and those who are exploiting their instructors. The latter are often cheating on things like super and compo also, and as a result have an unfair commercial advantage over the others who are doing the right thing.

If the instructors are going short because the bosses are collecting huge profits then that is wrong. It is possible to stay profitable and pay the award. It can be done, but not if you have too many spare instructors sitting around.
If people go around undervaluing themselves by begging for work, they are asking to be exploited.

[grade_3]

Thank you for the responses, the discussion here is what I was hoping for.

Xena:

I agree with what you typed.

That is precisely the reason for me sticking my neck out and asking these questions. There is no such thing as a stupid question, remember!

As I have said above, please consider everything I am asking as a way of supplementing my relative lack of experience in the cut throat world of GA. I am relying on the nice people that populate this forum to give me some more information to help me decide what a fair remuneration is and how to go about getting it.

Hopefully the information in this thread may also help others make the effort to not accept less than the award rate.


My situation is not that the boss is pocketing the extra profits, but that he is charging the students only $20 p/hr for my services. Effectively undercutting the competition :rolleyes:

When I reach Grade 2 level the rate goes to $35 p/hr. These rates have been verified by talking to other instructors operating from the school. The only other active school on the field pays their instructors the same but charges their student significantly more, thus pocketing the profits. :rolleyes:

So my next questions:

Any advice on what to do?

I was told that the award is not usually applied to many forms of GA. Is this the case?

How to convince the boss to about-face and pay (and charge) award rates?

Thankyou in advance for all the considered, rational responses.


Cheers,


Grade 3



[This message has been edited by grade_3 (edited 29 August 2000).]

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

You wrote:

"My situation is not that the boss is pocketing the extra profits, but that he is charging the students only $20 p/hr for my services. Effectively undercutting the competition :roll:"
If your boss is charging $20.00 an hour for your time, and you are getting all of that twenty, does that mean your boss is putting up the 8% of gross for super and 3% for compo him/herself? (Hmm. Sounds a bit odd, where is the money to cover overheads etc?) Make sure you are covered by compo, many exploited instructors aren't, otherwise god help you if you have an accident in the workplace.
Once you have accepted those conditions, you can hardly go to your boss and say you suddenly want more. It's too late for that. $35.00 an hour for a grade two is a bit more realistic, but still on the low side.
Do you get any perks like free renewals etc?

I say again, it is possible to pay the award and run a viable GA business, provided the boss works as hard if not harder than everyone else and is prepared to go without the brand new BMW in the lean times.

[grade_3]

Sorry, should've been more specific earlier.

Yes, he is paying the super and compo, as part of the wage. I simplified the figures for the purposes of the discussion.

Thanks for the input CFI.

Grade_3

[Attitude!]

Personally, I don't feel the rate of pay is as important as the WAY its paid. By this I mean that you should be looking for a regular WAGE, not being paid only for flying hours. Who pays for the briefing time? Who pays for refueling or admin tasks? How do you manage your duty hours when you may have been at work all day and just about to go home when your ONLY prospect for the entire day arrives on the doorstep? Are you going to say "come back tomorrow? Of course not! You have to EAT and pay RENT, and support your FAMILY!

When you don't get paid for ground time, you tend to do briefs on the way to the aircraft and debrief whilst taxying back from the runway. This is not a professional or fair way to treat the student. He/she is paying the entire price for the trip, and therefore deserves your best attention and ability, neither of which will be forthcoming.

When you don't get paid for ground time, you tend to fly more sorties per day than is safe/possible/professional. AGAIN the poor student suffers because he/she has an instructor that can't remember what's going on because they're so damned tired! AND they're fudging the books and flying 7 days straight, 4 weeks a month etc. Why do you think that flight and duty times were invented?

How do I have the boldness to make these statements? Of course, because I have been there! My first (7-day/wk) aviation job paid HALF my regular 5-day per week truck driving job, and there were no benefits such as sick leave, holiday pay, insurance etc. I was paid a flat rate of $240/week gross (1987 dollars). I was Chief Pilot (only pilot, cleaner, admin, etc) for an outback charter business flying a 6-seat single. I worked pretty hard for my money in conditions that were far less than desirable - but it was my first job and I just HAD to accept it didn't I!

My second flying job was instructing in a capital city flying school. I was a bare-bones Grade 3 with 500 hours in my log. The pay was $15 per flying hour and I was expected to be there sunup to sundown seven days a week and look after my books. My students were invariably stolen by the senior Grade 2 (trainee/deputy CFI). I would sometimes have 7 flights booked for the next day, only to arrive at work and find that four of them had been moved across the booking sheet to the Gr2 because he didn't have enough work! This happened at least twice a week, EVERY week. Sometimes I couldn't even make enough to pay my rent, but I was at work 60+ hours a week. I parted company (not reluctantly) as soon as I had my 200 hours instructing.

Since then I've been paid a wage, and generally enjoyed myself as a professional, career instructor. I am not unique in this industry (although we all like to think we are), but I have managed quite well over the last few years. My last job in Aus (1993) was with a major flying college and I was earning $52k with the benefits. Add to that, the various companies I've worked for have upgraded my licences and ratings and generally paid for all endorsements and type-ratings along the way.

This is how a professional career should progress! If you intend to stick with instructing (or truck driving, accounting, shelf-stocking etc.) you should expect to progress up the pay scale and enjoy better conditions and benefits as you gain experience. You've paid enough to allow entry to this semi-exclusive club. Surely you should be paid for your efforts.

It is only when flight instructing FINALLY attracts a decent wage that we will get long-term, experienced instructors with the desire to remain in their job AND, (goodness knows!) give the student value for money and a decent aviation education. Along the way, your boss will profit handsomly because YOU will be in demand, having built a reputation as a "stayer" and somebody with the knowledge and interest to pass it on.

Sermon ends.

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Gear.... DOWN, Three greens!

[Msjj]

Dear grade_3

A little more back ground on me. I have been flying for ten years and an instructor for three. When I moved to QLD it was hard to find work. VERY HARD. I chose the flying school that was professional and had a great safety record, that was important for me. I could have worked at the dodgy flying school down the road that paid less yet provided more flying time. But I chose the company that I wanted to fly for, it was also the reputation of the company that was important to me, especially as one day I would like to fly for the ailines. Not the ailines for the money either. I fly with the most professional pilots I know, no dodgy operations and no pressure to fly in marginal conditions even. The instructors are of a high standard because our boss maintains that level. If we make it to the airlines, he is very proud of us and will help us achieve our goals in any way he can. Yes I am very lucky, but it did take me a long time to become secure in this company. the senior instructors do get the work first when it is available. But if I don't get some work that day I will ask to backseat so I may learn something from an intructor with 3000 - 8000 flying experience.

CHICKEN, I agree with ATTITUDE. Flying instructors are professional pilots and are entitled to the award. This is a career job. It is not right for the CFI/owner to determine what they think is the correct salary. If you can not afford to pay rent on a f/i wage you will look for a better paying job and no doubt aim for the ailines. But for those who want a career as a f/i they deserve to be paid the award. How would you feel if you were a 40 year old with a family and not being paid the award and all you wanted to do was be a f/i!!!!!

At my flying school there are around 15 professional f/i, there for 5-10 years or more and HAPPY. It offers solid grounding for the students and the school's reputation. The students and junior instructors all benifit from their experience and positive attitude.

If you are happy with the operation and you know your boss will genuinely help you when you need it and all operations are as per the book, maybe you can discuss with him the short and long term conditions you are entitled to.

Yes it is hard, good luck


PS: Flying schools with contracts with a University to provide training require that the instructors must be a two or higher and paid the award wage. I think the Qantas cadet training system is grade one
and award pay. The cadet scheme started because the airlines were not happy with the standard to the training that was generally provided. To be trained under the cadet scheme costs the student around AUD110,000. A lot to pay but you know you will be trained the best and be employable by the airlines. If the standard of training in GA does not improve maybe the airlines will soon only employ cadet trained pilots - that is grade one only instructors!!!!!!!!! I wonder how a f/i will get from grade 3 to grade 1????

[This message has been edited by Msjj (edited 30 August 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Msjj (edited 30 August 2000).]

[grade_3]

Thanks for the responses.

It's interesting to hear some different stories of how people have got along in instructing. Interesting to hear Attitude's point of view on some matters as they pretty much agree with my own position at this time. It's also nice to hear that career instructors aren't unique - that there is at least some people with that commitment to teaching and training.

Once again, thanks for the input everyone, this thread has been very helpful.

Cheers,


Grade 3

(and having a good time teaching ;) )

[El Cid]

I am currently trying to scratch a living as a gigging musician and this is exactly what happened in my industry.A few years ago,it was the norm to be paid a few quid,not much but at least something for your troubles,now that has completely been destroyed by bands(mostly young and impressionable) who are quite happy not only to receive nothing BUT WILLING TO PAY THE CLUB FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF PLAYING! Now it is not a question of how much you will be paid,it's a question of how much you are prepared to pay the greasy club owner for the honour of selling his beer in his rat-pit of a club for him.If this had been nipped in the bud as soon as it started,we would be in a better position to exercise our right to earn a living.We needed a stronger union and people willing to not take gigs,just so that they could get some exposure.Let those who bring in the revenue share in it also.Our particular case has gone too far down the drain to salvage,as the club owners have no shame in charging people to work and there are too many "scab" groups who would quite happily pay(usually very bad ones).
It must not become the norm for instructors to work for free as the next INEVITABLE step is instructors being charged for the privilege,and this would be an outright disgrace.
I gave up music to go into aviation and would hate to see the same thing happen here also.It has to become socially unnaceptable for instructors to work for free and undermine those who have chosen to make it a career.
At least in aviation you are not likely to be beaten to death with a base-ball bat for fighting for your rights.
El Cid

[Attitude!]

Has anybody ever really wondered where instructors come from?

With all the airlines looking for people, GA looking for replacements for those who went to the airlines, flying schools looking for replacement Grade 1s who went to GA/airlines etc. WHO IS GOING TO BE LEFT TO TRAIN THE NEW INSTRUCTORS? You can't expect the new instructors to be able to properly train the newer ones and keep any sort of decent standard!

If you stick to your guns and only work for a reasonable pay (or better!), eventually, the cheapskates and crooks will HAVE to employ you or somebody like you at a reasonable rate or else close their doors due lack of instructors. Meanwhile, the good schools get better reputations (relatively at least) and are more able to afford to pay their staff.

It's all merry-go-rounds and swings.....



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Gear.... DOWN, Three greens!