How to avoid infringements - advice from the Fly on Track Team

[Sir George Cayley]

Sound advice on the CAA's web site

http://www.caa.co.uk/caanews/caanews.asp?nid=894


Sir George Cayley


Mods - Sticky for a wee while?

[FNG]

Edit: removed, as the post to which it responded has also been removed.

[bar shaker]

Post removed at request of enevill

[Sir George Cayley]

Sorry to see the usual descent happening.

Enevill - Dont be upset. It was probably a good idea at the time

FNG - Chill baby. The lad meant no 'arm

Bar Shaker - You're a very naughty boy!

Anyway back to the main point

Sound advice from a team for whom I have a lot of respect.
As someone who enjoys x country flying but has been stuck in the local area for yonks due not enough dosh I am always concerned about inadvertent infringing.

The record seems to show that many pilots still poke off into the luft with not a care or thought about the subject.

Education is the answer and the above is welcome. As wide an audience is desirable so why not print off the details and pin it on your club notice board?

Sir George Cayley

[Warped Factor]

Some recent (2004) infringements of CAS in the London area are detailed here (http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/comm.asp?type=viewmessages&thread=251&orderby=ASC) at the Flyontrack website.

WF.

p.s. and no, controllers haven't been asked or instructed to report more or else I would personally have caused the total to have gone up by a few more.

[FNG]

Well I did try to break it to him gently, Sir George, and at least the exchange may have illustrated the point that you shouldn't simply rely on the fortuitous interventions of others to get you out of trouble.

[Whirlybird]

Good advice here. Like everything else on PPRuNe, if you don't need it, that's fine, but some people may.

Bear in mind "hints" from ATC. I was flying back to Wolverhampton once from Duxford - or somewhere in that area - and planned to go by my usual route, turning at Henley in Arden. When I told Birmingham, they pointed out that this was right on the edge of their airspace. They didn't say: "Do you really want to do that, close to hills and in worsening vis, when five minutes more flying will take you to flat ground and uncontrolled airspace near Kidderminster?". But a few seconds thought made me realise what they were actually saying, and I changed my plans.

[IO540]

All the time PPLs are taught to navigate solely using a compass, a chart, and recognising hedges, and all the time the CAA and most of the GA media pretend this is the "proper" way to do it, there will be infringements, and absolutely nothing can be done about it.

One could chip away around the edges, do loads of safety seminars etc, but most new PPLs don't do to those.

The process itself contains too many opportunities for gross errors, never mind minor errors.

Of course one can just wait for the number of new PPLs issued each year to fall even further. This will reduce the infringements by the appropriate percentage.

The bulk of the active old-timers tend to not get lost because they know all the relevant landmarks, and most pilots don't fly very far. These are the people that read all the bumph and turn up at the CAA safety seminars and lay their logbooks out on the table to get the CAA man to rubber stamp them.

Not that anything can be done, because nobody will want the PPL training to look any more expensive to the prospective punter.

:O

[FNG]

I0, we've discussed this before, and I agree that training standards should be improved, and that training should include the use of GPS, but I don't think that the DR process is itself to blame for people getting lost. DR itself works, pure and simple. The errors are in the application of the process, and in poor flight planning (eg, planning to fly deliberately into airspace you have not noticed is controlled), as a consequence of being taught badly, or of not paying attention if taught well.

[High Wing Drifter]

One of the problems with GPS is the number of times I hear Farnbrough tell somebody to descend out of controlled airspace. I assume it is because the line wasn't drawn and hence the chart wasn't used properly.

BTW, on one of the few occasions I have used GPS it placed me five miles north of my current known pos. Probably more down to the software (Skymap IIIc) but still it is a worry :uhoh:

FWIW, I have switched the GPS on when I have decided that I am no longer 100% sure where I am and it is becoming difficult to get a fix and I think I am near controlled airspace.

My humble point being that GPS is very very useful...but DR is essential.

Not that anything can be done, because nobody will want the PPL training to look any more expensive to the prospective punter.
My impression is that new PPLs would rather spend more on training and also in my experience, FIs are brutally honest when they need to be.

[englishal]

What the CAA are really saying is "don't go into or near CAS as you're not welcome"

I fly a lot in America, and I was taught to plan my flight in a most direct a route as possible (avoiding prohibited areas of course), which I do. The reason I can do it in the USA is that I know that as soon as I talk to ATC that there will be no airspace issues, I WILL be cleared through Class C and below, more than likely I WILL get a Class B clearance should I need it (A over here), I will be allowed through millitary operation areas. I can also take advantage of the numerous VFR corridors through most large Class B areas, should it prove to be quicker.

Rather than let you infringe CAS you're not cleared into, ATC will tend to give avoiding vectors, I suppose their philosophy is that its better to give you a bit of a bollocking on the radio, and not have you infringe CAS, than let you infringe it and then offer you a phone number to call when you land. Of course this depends upon your level of competence, if you are a complete f*ckwit, burbling on the radio, not really sure of where you are, they wash their hands of you and wish you a nice flight.

I'm flying oop North later this week, and I have to plan my flight around CAS, around danger areas, and over MATZs according to the CAA. I would normally route direct, but if A don't clear me through, and then B don't clear me through, I can't go above C becasue of overlaying Class A which I WONT be cleared through, I have just doubled my workload by planning a direct routing. Now add in the british weather, cloud until FL50, then clear blue sunshine. I can't get to the sunshine due to the CAS above me, so I have to do all of this in IMC.

EA

[FNG]

That's a bit pessimistic, Al. Most Class D zones will let you in if you ask nicely (OK, Stansted perhaps excepted), and Heathrow will let you cut the corner of the CTR under SVFR. I do sometimes wonder, however, why some of the Class A extends so low in various areas around London.

[M609]

Is Class A used below FL90 in any other country?? :O

[2Donkeys]

Yep. Plenty.

France in the region of Paris. There are plenty of other examples. Iceland for the sake of contrast.

[Capt. Manuvar]

I disagree that only pilots are to blame for errors in dead reckoning. I think that some infiringements might occur Following a near-infringement, I've become extra cautious when it comes to navigation. I start planning 1 weeks in advance if possible using a variety of flight planning resources and still find errors that are beyond my control. The main source of errors is that actual wx conditions can differ from forecasted/reported wx. On hazy high pressure days, most weather reports will incicate unlimited vis and high cloud bases. But on some occasions (e.g my last nav flight) pilotage can become impossible and pilot may have to revert to DR only. Couple this with a dodgy wind forecast and it becomes a gamble. Winds can vary differently form forecasts, the largest discrepancy i've encoutered is 25kts in the other direction.
I am not procient in the use of any particular GPS unit, so i only use the groundspeed and track features to back up my traditional nav techniques. I do appreciate reports such as the OnTrack report. As a once every 3 wks pilot I am aware of my limitations and weakness. Its very hard for me to guage distances (what does a ground feature look like from 5 miles? i dunno) and i dread flying over featureless terrain. So I'm not immune to infirngements and I think every pilot should be wary of being overconfident.
Capt. M

[bookworm]

Other low class A includes Amsterdam CTR/TMA, and an awful lot of Italy.

[High Wing Drifter]

Capt. Manuvar,

I tend to keep my check points very close (3-5 mins depending on features) when in very confined airspace. I think the weather can be judged quite easily if you adopt a technique that allows you to measure your error. I try to (try because its hard!) only start looking for ground features 3 mins before I am due overhead. In unconfined airspace I may make my checkpoints 10-15 mins apart so for 10 mins I am FREDAing, scanning, chatting and lookout only. Once I arrive at my checkpoint, because I haven't deviated prior to arriving at the checkpoint my fix will tell me how far off I am. Was it shoddy flying or wind that pushed me off-course? Usually wind, sometimes the other :) If wind then I know pretty well how accurate the forcast is and can estmiate heading corrections for the remainder of the leg or the next leg.

[SQUAWKIDENT]

"While the United Kingdom Airpox Board is still investigating"

Hope its not contagious;)

[IO540]

With a moving-map GPS, there is no need to "use" it. You just switch it on, then look at it occassionally, and you can see where you are on the map.

All the other stuff, like loading the route into it, is nice but optional.

[FNG]

That's a valid point, IO. Yesterday I ded-reckoned from Waltham to Compton Abbas in summer haze, with a very helpful RIS from Boscombe Down. Above the inversion at 6000 feet, the horizontal visibility was superb, but seeing the ground features through the gunge below was still not easy. Chilbolton is east to spot (partly because of the adacent Radio Telescope, but mainly because of Genghis and Aerbabe's parked-up Uglybird). The leg from Alderbury to Compton has few features, and Compton itself is a bit out on its own. A quick glance at the moving map showed me Compton ahead, and I saw the airfield just before the very helpful Boscombe guy called me to say that it was in my 12 o'clock at 4 miles.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Capt.Manuvar

I disagree that only pilots are to blame for errors in dead reckoning.

Errr, so who else does the dead reckoning ... apart from the pilot ?? :confused:

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

I think he is blaming our Lord and Master for not providing the weather that the met man forecast. :D

[PPRuNe Radar]

I see :O

I was taught to review your DR as the flight progressed and make corrections or adjustments as you went along. Drift angles on chart, 1 in 60 rule, measuring approximate actual speeds, tracks and ETAs on chart quickly, all that kind of stuff. I recall BEagle did a good post with advice on this kind of thing on the site on another thread.

I suppose if I just followed my pre flight computed heading and indicated speed I too may have ended up with a few infringements ..... but I wouldn't have blamed anyone else for that ;)

[IO540]

Well, yes, to be pedantic, one can visually navigate anytime, even in the min legal 3km vis, flying a plane by hand with a chart on one's lap, and looking at a compass. People used to do that in WW1, so it obviously works.

It is just a tradeoff between cockpit workload, and getting lost. The more current one is, the more workload they can take before they lose it.

[FNG]

Alas for the days when a chap could land in a field and ask for directions (lots of descriptions of doing this by Alex Henshaw, David Garnett, T H White, and others). With any luck the farmer would sell you some petrol from his tractor whilst his apple-cheeked daughter poured you a jug of scrumpy. I have to agree that trying to find your way anywhere with 3km vis is pretty horrible. I tend to take 5km as my personal limit for non local flying, and even that ain't a lot of fun.

[High Wing Drifter]

I find 8km bad enough!

[Aussie Andy]

I find 8km bad enough!I find it varies with time and confidence etc. Early in the season, if I have had a lay-off over the winter, I will be more cautious and would want min 8km. But I find that as the season progresses, if flying regularly, then I become a bit more willing to deal with lower vis.

I think it's essentially a workload versus brain-capacity thing, with brain-capacity being a function of currency...

But still I find 6km daunting and rule out 5km! FNG flies (much) more regularly than me (b*stard ;) ), so I guess it's natural he'll be more comfortable with 5km than me.

Which reminds me FNG: when are we having that beer mate!?

Andy :ok:

[FNG]

Will email you re beer Andy. The word "today" has a nice ring. I certainly ain't that comfortable in 5km, and would think twice before flying an unfamiliar route in that vis. By the way, guess what I did one day, two weeks after licence issue, when I went flying westwards in evening haze and forgot everything I'd ever been taught?