spinning

[decmax]

Is spin recovery, incipient,or otherwise,now part of P.P.L syllabus, max.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Under the JAR FCL PPL syllabus, exercise 11 is spin avoidance. Comprising of:

-airmanship
-safety checks
-stalling and spin recovery at the incipient spin stage (stall with excessive wing drop, about 45 degrees)
-instructor induced distractions during the stall.

At least 2 hours of stall spin awareness and spin avoidance training shall be completed during the course.

[BEagle]

Typical Eurocrap! What on earth are 'instructor induced distractions during the stall'? Ohmigod Bloggs - help, help we're gonna die??
DO NOT try and make a spin resistant aeroplane depart to 45 deg AoB at the stall - OR IT WILL BITE!!
It really is time that these dangerous utterances from the bolleaux that is the JAA were refuted!!

[A and C]

I try to insist all my students do a few full spin recoverys as the avoidance may one day not work (say after a wake turbulance encounter)i feel a lot better if i have sent some one away with the ability to recover from the worst that fate might throw at them.

[Centaurus]

Two hours (minimum) of stall/spin avoidance! What a total time wasting useless exercise. The expense must be colossal. And for what? Thank goodness that bulls**t doesn't happen in Australia.

[stussy]

Centaurus
your remarks about 2 hours SSAT basically being a waste of time is probably the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The reason that we do 2 hrs of SSAT is that it can save a students life, there can be no price put on the value of that training as I am sure the more safety concious and professional instructors would agree.

I agree with what 'a very civil pilot'says apart from the instuctor induced distractions bit. But BEagle can you explain to me your reasoning behind your 'or it will bite'comment I AM INTRIGUED!!!

[BEagle]

Yes - the PA28. Normally spin-resistant. One of my FIs (no longer with my FTO) developed his own way of showing students that, if mishandled, a benign stall recovery could turn ugly. One day he attempted to show what could happen - but his 'individual' technique involved large power and control movements at the stall. This is far, far from the recommended technique and my docile little aeroplane flicked on him. He was NOT prepared for the subsequent post-departure gyrations, lost a LOT of height in the recovery and nearly overstressed. The student was very unimpressed. Aeroplanes WILL bite fools!!

[Vigilant Driver]

And I will just add to that the PA28 that BEagle refers to is PA28 Warrior, not the PA28 Cherokee (140) which spins like a top. If in doubt check the aircraft manual BEFORE spinning!

Really, if people want to learn about spinning they should go gliding. In the PA28 you can sit fully stalled with cross controls and the aircraft just sits there nodding gently. Now go and try that in a glider and see what happens :)

[BEagle]

Actually, Vigi old chum, the silly ar$e tried it in a Cherokee - I suspect that it wasn't anywhere near the 'utility' category and the non-standard 'technique' he used caused the aeroplane to depart without warning.
Try abusing a T67A with a heavy student, low fuel mass and aft Centre of Mass. That'll certainly make the point.
But that's about all a T67A is good for!!


[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 15 August 2000).]

[Vigilant Driver]

Well that's interesting! When I've spun the Cherokee it has always been most predictable and polite! But then I've only spun after following the instructions in the flight manual. ie. W&B in limits and correct entry and exit method.
Just goes to show what happens when you don't follow the Flight Manual http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[Sensible]

Off topic a bit, but can anybody tell me how far from a spin a power off stall is? I've held both a PA28, 152 and 172 stalled and kept the wings level with the use of rudder pedals for extended periods. When/how does a spin start always provided that the ailerons are left centred and control is only effected by use of the rudder pedals?

I've done spin recoveries, but always the instructor has to turn the aircraft inside out to put it into a spin. Ive never asked the question how does the aircraft go into a spin in normal use?

[Acker Demick]

Sensible,

All my experience is on C150s - I have never managed to initiate a full spin other than by the "standard" method of full up elevator + full in-spin rudder. If I start from a stall, regardless of power setting, and just let a wing drop without any attempt at correction, the a/c will roll to maybe 70 degrees, then drop its nose and unstall itself -- no spin. Maybe this is because I am heavyish (about 200lb)? Makes me a bit cynical about incipient spin training - I am strongly in favour of putting full spins back on the syllabus, but this was all thrashed out in another thread a few months back. If incipient spin training is "real", i.e. the manouevre leads to a full spin if left uncorrected, then students doing solo practice are in danger - what if they are slow in the recovery and get into a full spin? Alternatively, if the training is "faked", i.e. the a/c wont spin if the student does nothing, then what's the point?

AD

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If God had meant us to fly he would have given us more money

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Back to my earlier post with 'instructor induced distractions' - that's what the AOPA JAR-FCL syllabus says, and is nothing to do with me (just in case you were thinking!) ;)

[grade_3]

Sensible:

Some aircraft *will* spin quite easily. Acker Demick describes the basic spin entry technique, and that is precisely what you need to do to get most aircraft to spin.

But that said, some aircraft enter a spin easier than others: A C150 is hard to get in a spin (especially to the right), whereas a Tomahawk (aka Traumahawk) will just about always drop a wing during a deep stall. Spins (or spiral dives) sometimes follow if the proper recovery action is not taken.

A mucked up stall entry can somtimes lead to a spin - enter the stall excessively quickly for instance, or with a very high nose attitude, and it may spin.

I agree with Acker Demic - full spins should be back in the training syllabus. But only in specialised aircraft w/chutes. The number of stories you hear about aircraft almost crashing whilst practising spins doesn't bear thinking about.

Solo spinning is a definate no-no unless the student is aerobatic endorsed and with quite a few hours in the saddle.

The point of the incipient spin exercise? I reckon it's useful in that it shows the student just what *can* happen, so at least they know what to expect and know how to avoid a spin.

That was the point of stall training at the school I did my initial grade 3 with - how to recognise and avoid stalls, rather than how to recover from from them. Obviously recovery was still important, but it wasn't the main objective/focus of the lessons.

My 2.2 cents (inc. GST)

Grade 3

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I´d like to see spinning either fully in or fully out of PPL training, this halfway house is no good. Some instructors take people spinning, some don´t go near it and some take them to the full incipient half-rotation point (me). A bit of a dogs breakfast really.

I particularly find alarming that a young chap or chapess can pitch up and get a full commercial pilots license without ever having spun an aircraft. If all you´ve ever done is stall recovery in a PA28 Warrior and then a few incipient jobs in a Senecca you would get one hell of a suprise in something as mundane as a PA38 Tomahawk should you stall the thing. Wingdrop to my students is about 15 degrees of gentle bobbing to the right or left...

Perhaps thats OK if they go striaght onto multi crew commerical ops but what about the ones who end up instructing or on air work, charter, taxi stuff! Bad time to be finding out about departure from controlled flight when you´ve got punters down the back. Plus I feel they lack the ability to control the adrenalin rush stroke panic that you get when an aircraft bites. If you´ve never been past 45 degrees AoB or 30 degrees of pitch then you´ve never really had a chance to get comfy and sit there with grim faced calm NOT panicking as the world turns upside down.

Mandatory spinning and aeros in the JAA CPL module please.

WWW

[foxmoth]

In reply to sensibles ? - an a/c will NOT go into a spin in NORMAL use , only if misshandled or cocked up aeros. If your instructor is going through all this to get it into a spin it is probably a modern a/c like a cessna or pa28 - get someone who knows to show you a spin in a chippie or a tiger moth or simmilar and you will see a lot of difference

[TWINCOMM]

As Foxmoth says, it's a shame that spinning is taught in A/C that do not spin very well.

Here lays the real danger of the current set up. Joe Bloggs gets his PPL on a C152 then goes out and buys a chipmunk or similar.

Years ago I flew an old Auster J1. During the check out we did a simulated slow approach and turn onto finals at altitude allowing the bank to develop, the wing was picked up with the ailerons in good spamcan tradition and WHAM - we were in a fully developed spin, no buffet, no nose up attitude, no rudder pedalling, no warning, just a transition from normal flight to spinning in less than a second (caused by the adverse yawing moment from the downgoing aileron).

That was the best demo of spinning I have ever seen.

It is a real shame that spinning is off the syllabus now. If the CAA are happy with this, I hope that the "differences training" required when converting to other types is thorough enough.
By the time Bloggs has accumulated a hundred hours on spamcans, the tendency to waggle the ailerons and be ham fisted with control inputs when close to the stall, is too far ingrained to be corrected on a short type conversion flight.

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TwinComm

[Gen Ties]

Good discussion subject and my thoughts....

In Oz spin training is only neccessary for the the aero rating, for the Grade 3 Instructor Rating (initial) what is required is a demonstrated proficiency in recovery from a spin - neccessary for the situation if Bloggs stuffs up a stall and you are too slow to correct, I guess. Some individual CFI's for reasons known to them like it taught also.

Stall training is somewhat different with demonstrated recovery required from the incipient, clean, approach, climbing and descending configuration and wing drop, and so it should be. I suppose the thought process is if you don't stall or if you do but can recover you can't spin. Known as stall/spin avoidance under your JAR FCL PPL perhaps.

Spiral dive recovery is also another syllabus item that is covered in detail.

Now, I don't have figures at hand but I would consider that accident or incidents of inadvertent spinning would not be all that common, in fact I have never had a story of one related to me. (Yes, don't shoot me down, I know I do not know everyone).

But stories that have been related to me and there have been quite a few of these, are the ones where an intentional spin has been entered in a typical training aircraft (ie C150 etc) and the pilot has had quite a hair raising and very scary time trying to get out of that spin.

After 7000 hrs of Single Pilot ops,with 1500 hrs of instructing from a Grade 3 up to and including Chief Flying Instructor together with my own training, Licence Tests, endorsements, renewals and Base Checks I have never found myself anywhere near entering an inadvertant spin and believe me, I'm no Chuck Yeager.

WWW, I may be a bit judgementalhere but I reckon that if you find yourself departed from controlled flight with punters down the back you haven't done your job properly as you should not have allowed yourself to get into that situation and should have recovered from the first onset of stall (and you shouldn't have got there either).

By all means, if you want to do spin training, do it and it can be a lot of fun and skill enhancing, but mandatory for PPL/CPL, I don't think so, it can be covered quite sufficiently in discussion.

Maybe that is why those making the syllabus don't have it as a required training session.

As I said, my thoughts...

[Jasper]

I'm a PPL, not an FI, but do a fair bit of instructing in gliders. I think spinning should be part of the PPL, but it should be in addition to at least 4 hours SSAT (or is it only 2 under JAR?) which is the key bit. It's all insurance.

"Awareness" or "avoidance" is the fundamental lesson on the basis that prevention is better than cure, but when things go wrong in high workload situations, you're NOT aware, so you don't avoid, so you need to have the recovery bit too, spins included (always assuming you eventually become aware enough to recover!).

Normally aircraft, powered or otherwise, don't stall or spin - but they do when the pilot "annoys" the a/c in high workload situations. All aircraft will spin given the right set of circumstances.

In the gliding world (at least in the UK), a LOT of emphasis is put on spin recovery training. Stalling is pretty thorough too, more I reckon than the PPL.

My main axe to grind though, and this applies to glider and "powered" pilots, are those who get through their training and then never go near the stall (and spin, if they're a glider pilot) again.

I know pilots who are almost proud of the fact. Don't know what it is - fear? If you're afraid of practicing stalls / spins (not afraid of them per se - that's healthy)- should you be flying?

[This message has been edited by Jasper (edited 21 August 2000).]

[Nishko]

Don't allow yourself to become distracted from flying the aircraft, and the chances are you won't stall... And then of course, you are far less likely to spin! ;)

....I often wonder, but I would not be surprised if 99% of stalling accidents that do or do not lead to spins are as a result of pilots allowing themselves to become distracted. If you are paying the aircraft the amount of attention that it rightly deserves, then you'll know whether it's happy.

I guess there would be more value in teaching pilots to *instinctively* fly away from potentially stall like conditions, rather than concentrating wholly on wrestling the thing back to controlled flight after the mistake has been made.

For basic PPL kind of flying, there really is no excuse for stalling unintentionally:

Don't be distracted
Feel the aircraft
Listen to the aircraft
Be gentle with it
Look at the ASI

Dont turn final at 300' with 20 flap @ 45 KTS!

Nish

[NIMBUS]

Any Comments..?
All my ratings are FAA, and the only spin training I HAD to take was for the Instructor rating (presumably in case a ham-fisted student really screws up!). Canadian PPL's must have spin training, but yet the number of licenced pilot spin fatalities in Canada is higher than in the US..?

[goat737]

Actually, spinning has recently been removed from the Canadian PPL syllabus. Spins are no longer required on the Canadian PPL flight test. There is much more emphasis on teaching full power and turning stalls, while spins are still demonstrated by instructors and practiced by students. Transport Canada has published a sizeable pamphlet entitled "Stall / Spin awareness"---Presumably with the thought that by teaching more stall variations, the spin should never be encountered by the student. Spins are still required on the CPL flight test in Canada.

[Wheelon-Wheeloff.]

Okay, 3 points I think,

1/ Nishko, you're right about respecting the a/c, but I feel that everybody can lose concentration or attention momemtarily. It's like when I put a student into a spiral dive saying that I'm going into a steep turn but forgetting to put put on extra power, forgetting to increase the back pressure and overbanking. They begin to look at me with that "but I'll never do that when I have a licence" face!! I feel its healthier to except we are human and acknowledge that sometimes we will screw up than blindly be expected to be this perfect non-mistake making pilot that doesn't exist!

2/Back when I did my PPL I asked to see a spin at the advice of a friend(cow!!). I did a few and learnt the recovery technique. However, what I think I most took away from that day was a healthy respect for an area of the flight envelope I did not want to go back to! More memorable than the recovery I would no doubt have forgotten/been unable to carry out in the heat of an inadvertant spin.

3/ Third point is one I'm sure you've all experienced. Couple of weeks ago simple check out for a new club member who had been taught on Warriers and came to fly our Tomahawks. He had flown Tom's before but as you can probably guess during the stall instinctively tried to pick up that wing with the bloody aileron. Now as I said he had been flying Toms before so is this an accident waiting to happen or an accident were making happen by putting ourselves in that position. Does anyone have the actual statistics to say when most spinning accidents happen?

[Nishko]

Hi, I didn't mean to suggest that everyone is immune to an occasional lapse in concentration, but meant to imply that I would like to see a little more instructional effort going towards improving airmanship and learning how to avoid the less predictable areas of the envelope. I have no argument with the concept of recovery training just as long as it is balanced by a similar amount of avoidance training!

I believe that the essence of learning is very closely linked to that of experience, and therefore pilots of all kinds should be safely exposed to the greatest amount of diversity possible, so increasing experience, and awareness.

Basically, there are still too many stall/spin related accidents, and that is a shame in this age of better understanding.

Nish

[grade_3]

There are still many stall/spin accidents

There are also still many CFIT accidents by VFR PPL's in IMC.

As well as Fuel Exhaustion accidents.

And stuffed up landings and approaches.

A very wise man once said "Aviation is as safe as you (the PIC) make it!"

Some people I know really want to be the best pilots they can, they want to control their aircraft as well and as precisely as possible. These guys usually take extra training (e.g. spin training) once they have their licences.

Others see the aircraft as a tool, or as a car that can fly. They may not pursue extra training because that is not necessarily where their interests lie.

Neither is definitively safer - it depends on the inividual.

To quote another hackneyed phrase "The aircraft will never have an accident unless the PIC directs it too"

It depends on the bloke up the pointy end of the aircraft - no amount of training will make some pilots safe.

Grade 3

[Nishko]

Good Point! ;)

[TWINCOMM]

Wheelon-wheeloff,

Your comment on the guy converting to Tomahawks is exactly what scares me about the present situation.

......"during the stall instinctively tried to pick up that wing with the bloody aileron"...

There is a generation of pilots being taught - or being allowed to develop - the wrong insticts.

I hate to say this, but a lot of young(er) instructors don't know any better.



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TwinComm

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have done a lot of spinning as a flight test observer, I can't say I've always enjoyed it but it is a beneficial exercise.

When I turned 400hrs in other stuff into a light aircraft PPL early this year the CAA insisted I did 2 hrs stall and spin awareness (11 hours of spinning and more stalling than I can count in the logbook didn't matter apparently) - I told the school that whatever they had planned we were going to do 2 hours spinning.

IMO every pilot in training should see a spin and execute a recovery - if only to stop them playing silly buggers near the stall. On the other hand, too many PPLs don't regularly practice stalls anyway, and we shouldn't be frightening them off doing this.

At the point of stall incidentally, many aircraft don't have the control authority to enter a spin - it's large control inputs at about Vs+5kn that are more likely to end in tears.

I think WW makes a valid point about type conversions. Surely anybody converting to a new type should have read the POH and all it's handling advice first, if they haven't surely an instructor is being unprofessional in flying them and signing them off. Next think you know people will be flying aircraft without checking the technical logs.

G