checklists

[decmax]

just as a matter of interest,do any of you use checklists when conducting trial leasons, when i get a checklist out,i tend to get insecure looks all round, as though it's a sign of in-experience,and,or, lack of confidence,just wanted to know if i'm on my own,max.

[damBuster descendant]

As far as "getting out the checklist" goes, you can expect a bit of that sort of reaction. When I fly any GA bug smasher I don't get a checklist out. Use the gray matter man!

If you are relying on the list to remember all the items you need to consider the situation… If it is in the name of safety I am open to justification. Again if you can’t remember the list, and lets be honest, there are not all that many items on something that size, are you current. If its two many types you fly, again if you aren’t sure about the checklist, do you really know the best glide speed etc…

If it is a manufacturers checklist you are using then I might be swayed. If it is the usual “T M P F I S C H” or “B O U M P F H” then is it really relevant, is it correct, does it correspond to the manufacturers requirements.

For example if you use the “B O U M P F H” check (or similar) for a C-172R you are not satisfying the manufacturers requirements. “Auto pilot .... Disconnected” doesn’t fit. So do we make it “B O U M P F H A ”. But now you have letters that are surplus to requirements. From memory there are no green lights that indicate that the gear is down and locked in that type, yet how many people say “Breaks operating and off, undercarriage down and locked three greens...” When asked the response is likely to be one (or more) of the following:

It is good practice
You need to get into the habit
You will be flying 747’s one day, you need to do what the airline’s do

The list can be expanded with any number of inane justifications. The facts are it is not good practice because you are calling a check that is not correct. There are NO greens. When you finally do get to fly something that does have green, you have been practicing the check with no action more than likely, and giving a parrot response with no actual check.

And what about the “P U F” check ? Do you practice that one in a fixed gear fixed pitch single ? If you do you’re mad. If you don’t you have just given me more proof for the above diatribe. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

And so I digress. The subject of checklists has been debated before (me thinks) and the feelings are varied.

As for the use on an intro flight – If Blogs is gong to be a pilot and you are going to teach this sort of THING better get it going from the start. If Smith wants to see the sights, avoid at all costs. Non-aviation humans just don’t understand.

[damBuster descendant]

if you do require check out this PPRuNe member. BUMFISH (http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum4/HTML/001575-9.html)

No offence intended to the particular individual.

[TWINCOMM]

Dambuster,

Could not agree more. How many times on the downwind checks do you get "T&P'S ok, Fuel on, contents sufficient, pump on" etc when the student has not even looked.

Try taking the fuse out of the fuel gauge circuit when on a circuit detail and see how long it takes your student to notice that the gauges are reading zero. They might actually start checking something rather than reciting some mantra as if it supposed to impress you.

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TwinComm

[A and C]

Check lists are good Do lists are bad which way are you teaching your students ?

[damBuster descendant]

If students are not 'checking' items you have a teaching/student problem. One of the big problems with some cookbook lists is they are not relevant.

Yes I have seen a student churn off the lists of things to do (DO list or CHECKLIST am not sure) following an engine failure - had them down pat. Trouble was he didn't action one of them. In the space of around 300' or 40sec he was ready to shut down and bail out! I think he was of the impression that he had to learn all these checks and procedures for the purpose of passing a test or because that was what you did. The faster the better. And so I digress again.

[Bear Cub]

I remember riding shot gun many moons ago with an instructor (who, then had 900 hours of instructing time on Cessna singles).

He was "checking out" on a Piper Arrow.

Every single circuit he flew, he said "Undercarriage down and locked" - but when his instructor pointed out that the wheels were still up and locked he simply replied "Can't get out of saying it - and doing nothing". This lasted over an hour.

The discussion over the years has been "do you teach for type - or teach a standard check list that should work on all types, if applicable".

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Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[Localiser]

Particularly with ab-initio, reciting checklist from memory can be bad habit to get into.

I teach my students this (in order):

Checklist: Initial, Cockpit and Startup
Memory: Taxi
Checklist: Power check and pre-Take off


Everything else is then done from memory. And I don't teach them to use the checklist again until shutdown.

However, in an emergency I expect them to do the immediate actions from memory and then consult the checklist if necessary.

I think a balance is required. Teaching students to do everything from memory, particularly critical points like pre-take off checks, is dangerous and very bad practice. Sooner or later items will be missed out which could end up contributing to an accident one day...

As previously pointed out, it is good practice to use a checklist. You or your student could be flying something big and heavy one day!

The underlying factor is, I believe, students should use a checklist whenever possible. You are teaching them. It should be remembered that we lead by example so you should also practice what you could be preaching.

Just my pennies worth...

LOC :)

[HighandTight]

In reply to the original post of using checklists for trial lessons - yes, for the power and vital actions.

If the punters don't like you being professional, tough!

I fly four different types of light a/c each with slight type differences. There is nothing wrong with consulting the checklist whilst doing the vital actions.

As for teaching students on a course, yes they should memorise the checks eventually, but the point of a checklist is that it is there so you DON'T forget something vital.

If they do parrot it then do as Twincomm suggests and pop the fuel gauge fuse. That always wakes them up!

To date I have never had a trial lesson quetion why I use a checklist, after all thats what most of them expect you to do anyway.

[goat737]

well said, localiser. I couldn't agree with you more.

[Luftwaffle]

Yes, I use a checklist on intro flights and sightseeing flights. If the student doesn't see me using the checklist from the beginning, he's going to think checklists are a wimpy thing that he should discard as soon as I'm not looking. I try to fly the intro flight just as I would expect the student to fly his flight test.

On intro flights I talk my way through the start checklist, explaining what I'm doing.

On scenics, as I pick up the checklist before engine start I say something like, "Of course I know how to fly this airplane. I use a checklist for extra safety, just like on the airlines." (Unfortunately, the other day what popped out of my mouth was ".. just like on the Concorde." Deep in my mind, a Concorde is still a premier aircraft, flown by select, professional pilots, not the latest front page horror. I think I'd better install a better brain-to-mouth filter before I start flying pax scheds. :-o

[redsnail]

I have seen some really good points being made here. I am now in an airline that has a different way of using the checklists. It isn't a bad way, just new to me.
They use a geographic scan/flow for the drills and the checklist only "checks" what is "important", ie potentially endangering. It streamlines the workload. There is nothing worse than sitting on the runway with about 15 items to "check".....I have found it works pretty well as the training captains emphasise the "why" we do the various items.
That is the main thing, get across to the student "why" you do such and such.
Some of the worst checklists I have encountered are in some flying schools because they think that is how the airlines do it. Why was the checklist bad? There was way too many items on it and it was shown to me as a "read and do". The only checklist that I use now that is a "read and do" is out of the QRH and it is the reference items. The only drills that are memorised are the emergency recall items.

QRH = Quick reference handbook.

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reddo
A Feral Animal.

[chicken6]

Thanks Reddo for being an actual factual, and contributing from an undoubtable position of "I know what I'm talking about because I'm ACTUALLY DOING IT"

I agree with Localiser - it's a question of balance, and I don't really mind if the student uses a checklist or not, as long as if they do they do it properly and don't miss anything, and if they memorise it then they absolutely have to know and understand what they are looking for. I typically spend about 5 minutes on the DVAs and runups with my pre-solo students and Drill (with a capital D) it into their heads what they HAVE to look for. If they don't SEE it they don't move from the holding area. I flew with a young stallion yesterday who flew through all the DVAs word perfect in record speed, but didn't notice that the oil pressure gauge was below the redline at 1800 RPM. (He's the reason I adopted this signature, although I liked it anyway).

Needless to say he's not as close to the flight test as he thought he was, but it made me think for a while - would this guy actually be able to diagnose a problem on his own? Isn't that the point of the checks?

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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.