View Full Version : Props into Heathrow
davethelimey
1st Jun 2004, 14:49
So there I am the other night, procrastinating from doing real work, staring out the window, when a turboprop (Saab?) drones overhead on approach to Heathrow. Never having seen one of these on this route before I thought I'd ask. Who flies them there and how often?
Cheers.
KLM runs F50s to Rotterdam (four daily?), KLM Excel ATR72s (two or three daily) to Eindhoven (or is it the other way around? :p
We get the odd SAAB 2000 in on a Swiss infrequently, and the odd PA31, King Air or such like on hospital flights.
The light KLMs are the only regular props.
davethelimey
2nd Jun 2004, 10:34
Thought it looked blue.
Doesn't the slower speed of a prop cause problems for all the other planes and a headache for ATC?
only for ATC, ...but they always find the solution.
Normally with the jets we have a departure interval of two minutes. Ie. two minutes before another departing a/c can be launched on the same route. Because of the difference in speeds, in a F50 or ATR72 is followed by a jet it goes to four minute, which may not sound much, but when there's fifteen at the holding point it seems like an age!
PPRuNe Radar
2nd Jun 2004, 13:20
Doesn't the slower speed of a prop cause problems for all the other planes and a headache for ATC?
Only on departure ... during approach props can keep their speed up for much longer than a jet can. Seems a whole generation of ATCOs have not learned that yet !! :)
Seen a few Scotair Dorniers going there too for some bizarre reason....?
Aye, PR.
Will they EVER learn now.
And the 2+ min dep sep can be replaced by a vertical sep if prop a/c is fast climber and Air Deps uses the phone more.
eg "Out of 3000' the next can go to 3000' only"
Use Mode C or A/C report.
It IS done at LHR & lesser places.
Don't go back to being a sausage machine, you guys 'n gals
Point Seven
2nd Jun 2004, 23:50
AC
If the prop is the second plane, yes you can do reduced sep but, as Gonzo quite rightly said, you have to do FOUR mins behind (same route) because that's what Terminal Control want. Otherwise the phones are red hot from some Sh£t hot radar guy having kittens.
Don't blame the tower controllers beacause at Heathrow there's NOTHING we can do. Your rules mate (it's in the MATS 2 for all to see) and if you did some tower, you'd realise you pompous a$s.
P7
PPRuNe Radar
3rd Jun 2004, 00:25
MATS (Pt 1 or 2) always allows controllers to sort out alternatives between themselves.
Point 7 ... the alternative is always there. You and your unit choose not to use it, then that is your perogative.
Point Seven
3rd Jun 2004, 10:02
PR
But if our MATS II says that the seperation will be four minutes behind a specific speed group (something that is now taught at the College of Knowledge) how can we apply something else?
It's all very well radar guys telling us how to circumvent the procedure, we've all (mostly) done a radar rating course and know how to, but the one time it goes wrong, at the borad of enquiry you haven't actually applied the letter of the MATS II. It's there for a reason and for it to be inferred that this makes us a sausage machine is somewhat insulting. We don't sit on here complaining about the increasingly poor application of vortex spacing into LL do we?
Yet, I get a yellow card......
P7
P7
Don't mean to ruffle you, but you MUST'VE sometime phoned TC to ask for 2 mins between DVRs off westerlies (MATS part 11 says 3 mins). It's the hottest line!
during approach props can keep their speed up for much longer than a jet can. Seems a whole generation of ATCOs have not learned that yet !!
So true. It also seems like a lot of them just dont want to learn.
I was watching a girl try and squeeze an A320 ahead of a Saab2000 the other day. What a nightmare. Eventually had to reduce the Saab to 220kts at about 60miles to make it work. The bus didnt want to go faster than 290kts and she initially told the Saab that he could pole along at own speed, not knowing(due lack of interest) that he is shunting along at 275kts!!! Told me to :mad: off when I repeatedly said "told you so" afterward.
Geffen
3rd Jun 2004, 15:03
Sometimes it is more hassle to get the radar guys n' gals to let us use vertical than wait for the four minutes, although some of them are accomodating!
25check
3rd Jun 2004, 18:35
Good to see you atcos in the spotters corner, it will be remembered next time there is leg rubbing......
Point Seven
4th Jun 2004, 23:10
25check
Whoever you are, I'll get ya:p
DVR/DET is completely different to props out of LHR. I know your point but NO i don't call for 2 mins because I know why the rule is there. It's easier for me to police it myself - that way I don't stitch up my mates on TMA South.
P7
Oh my God, I'm going to agree with P7!!!
I also do not bother to ask for 2 minutes for DVR/DETs....
Also, I reckon that 70-80% of the time if Air Deps asks to go early on a jet behind a F50 or ATR, then the answer will be "I'll call you back with a release"....and the release comes AFTER the four minutes, when we could have launched anyway.
That's my experience, and why I no longer make that call.
AC2, can I assume that you work TC NE?
Ah, sorry, it must have been the fact that you seemed to be criticising the method of co-ordination between two positions in such a forthright manner that lead me to think you must work in one of them....
Hi, Gonzo. It's NOT personal.
But, that looks like another question...
It's TCSE.
TIME SEPARATION CRITERIA
Dep A/c will be Sep by LLADC
A more expeditious dep may be req if application of the criteria would cause excessive delay.
What is excessive delay?
It's YOUR service provision we're talking about.
If you don't ask I can't help.
There COULD be another solution. IF I am V-busy I WILL say NO.
Don't try to get personal. And this is the wrong Forum for this.
You need not reply.
Well, I'm going to reply anyway :D
Interesting. Our Part 2 says that our departure separations are minima and not to be eroded for any reason , except where the application due to differing speed groups would result in excessive separation (ie, F50 on a DVR followed by a 737 on a DVR - we should give you five minutes)
Nothing is actually in our Part 2 about phoning up for two mintues.
Ooops, maybe I shouldn't have said that!
Geffen
8th Jun 2004, 12:24
interesting post gonzo, how then do YOU justify vis seps? :)
Sorry, should have mentioned that's for departures on the same inital track!
There's always one, isn't there......... :ok:
Point Seven
8th Jun 2004, 22:08
AC2
Small point, but it's actually OUR service provision because, unless I'm very much mistaken, NATS pay your wages too.
Your Them/Us attitude is exactly the one that most OJTIs spend valuable hours trying not to get trainees to take on. Posts like yours remind us why - thanks.
P7