ATPL - IMC rating

[B clam]

Can anybody point me to a link on the FCL/JAA websites or any other which details the privileges of an IMC rating. IF not - will someone be kind enough to list them (grovel!).

I have a UK ATPL/A - I am assuming this still encompasses an IMC rating.

[Stan Evil]

You'll find the info in CAP53 - guide to PPLs etc and also in the ANO. The IMC rating is strictly UK so it doesn't appear in any JAA pubs.

You do have one by virtue of your UK ATPL.

It give you the right to fly in IMC, under IFR in any UK airspace except Class A (to be honest I don't know whether you're allowed above FL245 but I guess that's irrelevant). There's something about adding an extra allowance to your MDA/DA but I don't know off-hand how much.

[BlueLine]

The privileges of all licences and ratings are in Schedule 8 to the ANO.

The privileges of the IMC rating extend the privileges of a UK PPL and BCPL holder to fly out of sight of the surface and under IFR in Classes D, E and F airspace.

The holder of a UK CPL and ATPL does not have this limitation to the licence privileges, and so do not need an IMC rating.

A JAR-FCL licence is slightly different, in that unless you have a valid instrument rating for the aircraft being flown you have no IFR privileges and thus may be in need of an IMC rating to fly IFR on the PPL privileges.

[rolling circle]

If you have a UK ATPL you must, by definition, have an Instrument Rating in which case why bother about the privileges of the IMC Rating?

If your IR has expired, you effectively do not have an ATPL (irrespective of the colour of the licence cover) but a CPL. The privileges of a UK CPL are those of a UK PPL with night and IMC Ratings.

[B clam]

Thanks all.

rolling circle:
The reason for my query is that I want to do some GA flying and I would like to know what I am able to do. As a relative newcomer to civil aviation, I find all this CAA/JAA thing all rather confusing - apologies for my ignorance!


[This message has been edited by B clam (edited 22 October 2000).]

[aerotowman]

You have to remember that not all IR's are the same under JAR, but are more or less type specific.

For example if you fly a 737 for a living, your IR is only specific to that type, and unless you have done an IR renewal on a single pilot aeroplane the only instrument privileges you have when flying light single and twin aircraft are those of an IMC rating, which you automatically have because of your ATPL.

Hope this helps

Aerotowman

[Cough]

Aerotowman -

V.interested in that (it may help me!)

Do you have a reference to it in the proper docs?

[aerotowman]

I'm afraid I can't quote which docs refer to it, however you could try looking at the CAA website.

Aerotowman

[RVR800]

Doesn't the CAA CPL enables one to fly without revalidation in Instrument conditions
for 10 years (outside controlled airspace)
- at that point one needs to do an IMC renewal test.

Its very generous really. 10 years.

[rolling circle]

Don't get me wrong Bclam, I wasn't criticising. A UK CPL (and by implication an ATPL) includes an IMC rating. So long as the licence is current you have IMC rating privileges without any need for a proficiency check.

A JAA professional licence does not include the IMC rating privileges. You can add the IMC rating to a JAA licence and you then have to maintain it in the same way that a PPL holder does, by periodic proficiency check. The only easement is that if you revalidate a single pilot Instrument rating that automatically revalidates the IMC rating.

The bit that Aerotowman was referring to was the fact that an Instrument rating revalidated on a multi-pilot aeroplane is not valid on a single-pilot aeroplane and vice versa. That is true no matter what licence you hold.

Since you have a UK ATPL(A) you automatically have the privileges of an IMC rating so long as that licence is valid, as listed by BlueLine above.

[B clam]

Rolling circle,

thanks for clearing it up. No need for me to rush out and convert to a JAA ATPL then as I would lose the IMC rating privileges.

(BTW - 757 driver with SEP class on licence)

[foxmoth]

Rolling circle,

just a reminder that, even on a UK ATPL, if you are flying Airbus (or B777?) the IR is type specific, therefore you DO need the IMC privelages under these circumstances.

[BlueLine]

The IMC privilleges in relation to a CPL/ATPL are a complete Red Herring. The basic licence privileges for a CPL/ATPL are such that you do not need to refer to the IMC rating at all. SCHEDULE 8 ANO.

[bookworm]

Red Herring?!

Commercial Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes)
...
Privileges:
(1) The holder of the licence shall be entitled to exercise the privileges of a United Kingdom Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) which includes an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes) and a night rating (aeroplanes) or night qualification (aeroplane), and shall be entitled to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane...

[rolling circle]

Thanks, bookworm - I couldn't be bothered to write it all out myself.

foxmoth - try reading the third paragraph of my second post.

[wysiwyg]

right, now I am really confused. Can someone please give me a simple yes/no answer to this question:

I hold a JAR ATPL which was upgraded from a UK CAA CPL/IR. My single crew (initial) IR has expired but I currently operate a 2 crew airliner with associated 2 crew IR. Can I fly a hired PA28 (or equivalent) under the same terms as a PPL with valid IMC rating.

Please keep the answers simple (that's why I'm only capable of 2 crew these days!)

regards
wizzy

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Wizzy - No. Because you don't have a UK licence

[rolling circle]

Wizzy - Since you once held a UK CPL/IR which entitled you to IMC Rating privileges it is possible that the CAA might be prevailed upon to attach an IMC Rating to your JAA licence by way of grandfather rights. It's worth a quick call to the Belgrano.

Failing that, AVCP is correct.

[wysiwyg]

Very many thanks to both of you. I need to see FCL shortly (new type going on licence) so I'll bring up the subject of grandfather rights then.

Regards
wizzy

[foxmoth]

Rolling circle
Sorry, had not taken on board that the single/multi restriction applied now to the UK licence as well as the JAR one (it used to be valid on any a/c of course, and having been on Airbus when the change came in concentrated on how things applied to me).
:)

[seeemmmooo]

Right then an ex full time instructor, single crew IR, goes to fly a shiny jet, only renews his multi pilot IR, because the co. pays. Continues to instruct part-time, say 30+ hours a year, ATPL expires and co. pays for a JAA ATPL. = no more teaching IMC either in VMC or IMC. Unless he gets his hand in his pocket and renews his IMC or IR.

A pilot flying say a Bandit with a single crew IR can jump into a C172 for the first time for 'ages' and take his wife and kids and whoever into the airways in any wx.

Now that makes sense, I don't think.

[RVR800]

Dont you think its rather strange that :

1. Most people get a single crew IR to fly for the airlines

2. Then they are retrained multi-crew IR
and never use the single crew IR

Watch this space