Istrument INstructors - "Attitude Flying"

[TopperHarley]

Hi Guys,

Quick question for those of you who are instrument instructors.....

How do you promote the concept of "Attitude Flying" when teaching IFR to students ??

I have been told that I dont "Attitude Fly" - My IF seems ok in normal ops but apparently its blatently obvious when I get in the sim.....

If im not "Attitude flying" what am I doing ??

How do I fix it ??

Any thoughts would be appriecated !

Thanks

[Tinstaafl]

Cover all the performance instruments. This will force you to focus on setting & maintaining a given attitude.


Usually someone who is not 'attitude' flying will show up because for a given performance parameter the a/c will cycle between one boundary limit & another eg maintaining an altitude: the performance focused pilot will tend to react by pitching until either the altimeter or the VSI shows movement. By then the amount of pitch change is excessive, leading to a deviation in the opposite direction followed by another correction to make the VSI or altimeter move the other way etc etc etc.

An 'attitude' pilot would adjust the pitch using the AI by a small amount and then would wait for a response from the altimeter &/or VSI, knowing that they WILL respond eventually. After some amount of time, if the correction isn't sufficient to suit the pilot's purpose then another *small* attitude adjustment would be made - wait for a response - reassess, etc etc.


With familiarity with an aircraft type a pilot will develop an internal database of what sort of attitude adjustment is approximately required to achieve the desired effect and can select that attitude directly ie with fewer iterations of attitude adjustments. There is still the same adjust-wait-reassess process to fine tune things & correct for external effects.

[whatunion]

sounds like someone is splitting hairs with you!

there is no difference in instrument flying from any other flying.

power plus attitude = performance

you select a power and attitude for the performance you want, hold it and rough trim, check the perf instruments, change power and attitude to fine tune, trim to hold.


i used to teach selective radial scan.

attitude indiacator to perf instruments required then back to att indicator.

rough trim while settling, fine trim when settled.

changed perf required, change attitude and power (if required)

i fly light a/c and jet transports with this method and it works for me! (except most of the perf instruments are on the attitude ind these days!)

[fireflybob]

Another point that is sometimes missed is that you need to have kniowledge of the specific aircraft performance.

It's all very well teaching to maintain an attitude but WHAT attitude? If you want to instrument fly accurately and proficiently on full panel you need to know the PRECISE attitude AND power setting required to achieve a specific performance.

[aces low]

Agree with firefly bob. I always spend the first hour of IMC training with the student completing standard maneouvres visually (e.g. climb, descent at 95kts, 500fpm, glide etc) noting the attitude and power required for each. Only then do the foggles go on. I also teach that for a light single (PA28) you only need to know 4 power and attitude settings (unless the weight and altitude varies significantly). e.g. Climb = full power, about 8 degrees pitch up. Cruise = 2300rpm , dot on line gives 100 knots level. Descent = 1800 rpm, one bar width below line = 95kts 500fpm. And the glide = power to idle then set attitude for cruise. In each case once the aircraft has settled there may need to be a small change in attitude to fine tune the performance...but at least it prevents the student from freezing when you ask them to do something different to what they are currently doing.

The point I am trying to make? Familiarity with the aircraft's configuration and performance are critical to reducing the workload of instrument flying, so keep it simple stupid! There are only 4 configurations (and attitudes) the student needs to know for 95% of their instrument flying.
I did get a surprise the other day when there was significant mountian wave...and holding an altitude was a challenge!

[whatunion]

know the PRECISE attitude AND power setting required to achieve a specific performance.


gosh ive been renewing my i.r for 25 years without knowing the precise attitude, how i marvel at you experts!


whatunion says, precision is a word known by many, practiced by few

[fireflybob]

>gosh ive been renewing my i.r for 25 years without knowing the precise attitude, how i marvel at you experts!<

whatunion, have you ever heard of the expression "unconscious competence"?

Many people who have certain skills are not consciously aware of how they do what they do!

I would respectfully suggest that one of the aims of flying training is to give students a system which is simple and which will "bridge the gap" from the known to the unknown.

I am sure that you indeed are an accomplished instrument pilot but that it not what we are talking about here. There is, as they say, more than one way of "skinning a cat" but I would suggest that, actually, you ARE aware of the precise attitudes required at a subconscious level otherwise you would not be able to do instrument fly proficiently.

However, the inexperienced pilot needs more to "hang his hat on" than pure guesswork and part of the instructors job is to facilitate the students progress by giving him precise attitudes and power settings to achieve a given performance.

[TopperHarley]

Thanks for the great info guys - I really appriecate it.....

Maybe I should explain the reason for my interest........

I would consider my IF to be fairly good.... Not prefect but I can find my way around in the murk fairly well I believe.

For my last job interview, I did a simulator evalution in a basic light acft sim. I was quite happy with how I went, and I ended up getting the job. I later found out from the guy who did the sim with me that I was one of the best hed seen....

BUT........ I have had two cracks at a major airline job and each time have made a total mess of the sim (747 Classic). This was where I was told I wasnt "Attitude Flying". For some reason, I was also trying to drive the thing with the trim button. Ive never done that before EVER !

Is there something about a large jet acft that makes it less tolerant to perfornamce flying (if thats what im doing?). Obviously they are more sensitive in pitch than a light acft - hmm maybe thats it.

Anyway, thanks for you input.... Im off to have another crack at the classic sim in a few weeks !

Thanks

[Tinstaafl]

The short answer is yes, jets are more sensitive to 'chasing the needles' type flying. It only takes a **very** small pitch attitude change to cause a large change in altitude or rate of climb/descent. Think in terms of quarter or half degree pitch attitude changes for significant height or ROD/C adjustments. Light a/c are more like a half to a couple of degrees pitch attitude change



Note: numbers are representative ie trying to give an idea of the scope of change.

[bookworm]

It's an absolute classic. You learn to instrument fly on a slowish light aircraft and you follow the needle trends because you can. Then you move to something faster and more sensitive in pitch -- it doesn't have to be a jet, a high performance light aircraft demonstrates the effect well -- and suddenly you're all over the place because needle-chasing doesn't work any more.

Why? I think Tinstaafl has a very important part of the answer in pitch sensitivity. But there's also a time-constant effect. Higher performace aircraft are generally working over a higher speed range, and take longer to reach equilibrium after you change something. Thus more anticipation is required -- for example, to transition from cruise to climb, rather than just pulling until you hit the right airspeed, you have to pull and wait for the speed to sort itself out. How much force do you have to maintain as a function of time to make it a smooth transition? It's quite a complex process. In essence you're trying to do a couple of levels of integration in your head. By contrast, if you set and hold a pitch attitude, you reduce the complexity by a level: you still need to vary the control force a little with time to hold the pitch attitude, but you know that if you hold the correct pitch attitude then the performance will sort itself out.

[Tinstaafl]

I've tended to think it was inertia & momentum related ie the massive increase in speed & mass means that there's a quite large scalar change for a relatively small vector adjustment.

That's probably not well worded... :O

[whatunion]

firefly bob i can assure you i am not aware of the precise attitude for most of my flying, except the single engine climb after take off.

i am probably not a good model because 99.9% of my flying is done chasing a flight director.

i always taught/ flew APROX attitude, check perfornance instruments, modify attitude to achieve PRECISE performance.

its probably splitting hairs but setting a precise attitude to me is a student unfriendly phrase. setting an approx attitude seems much more achievable and user friendly. i prefer to teach what i do.
in regard to airline simulators, some people fly them like they are on rails others struggle and always will. best advice i ever recieved is to pull out the arm rests and keep your inputs down to an absloute minimum, it works for me.