Duxford in trouble [Archive]

BeauMan

27th May 2004, 12:00

To every action, there is an equal and opposite.... ;)

As I understand it, this is the first time that IWM Duxford have made concessions on the admission fees to veterans, with the exceptions of the 'invited guests' seen at Flying Legend in previous years. Although these invited guests have in the past been 'expected' to take part in various activities such as the flight line parade, book signings, etc. Veterans per se have always paid the standard or OAP admission price if there is one.

So the veterans have never really had a completely free lunch, so to speak.

Therefore, in the cold light of day, what Duxford are doing is actually a good thing, in that they are recognising ALL the veterans, not just the invited few.

Where Duxford have c0cked it up, is that rather than reducing the admission for veterans and then publicising the fact, my own opnion is that they should have abolished it completely. After all, as a good friend of mine has already said on the FlyPast forum, what is 8 quid compared to the sacrifices made by the veterans?

Ultimately, we all still owe a huge debt to these men, and always will. I think Duxford do recognise that fact, and they have made a gesture with genuine good intent, but it's been percieved as a 'half measure', and the publicity surrounding it has really only resulted in firing a metaphorical bullet straight through the IWM's foot....

rustle

27th May 2004, 13:58

Has ANYBODY heard anything at all from IWM?

FNG

27th May 2004, 14:00

I wonder if anyone actually checks that email address. Maybe best to send hard copy.

TonyR

27th May 2004, 14:15

I have sent an email and copy by post.

But I do hope it is a junior clerical decision and not a management one

Tony

Evanelpus

27th May 2004, 14:26

Given that the war ended nearly 60 years ago and that aircrew were probably 18? at the time, there probably aren't that many still alive to enjoy a 'free' show.

Come on, don't be small minded, give these people the respect they deserve and charge ZERO. After all, they could have paid with their lives back then.

FNG

27th May 2004, 15:00

Here is an example of IWM generosity: Spotters get in free. Heroes pay.

http://www.btinternet.com/~zola25/Duxford.htm

Flyin'Dutch'

27th May 2004, 15:14

R,

Nope, I haven't heard anything yet.

FD

Justiciar

27th May 2004, 15:35

Have just sent the following and await the reply or response with interest

I was shocked to read that the Imperial War Museum at Duxford is proposing to charge D-day veterans, in whose honour the show is being held, an entrance fee, all be it a reduced one. I find this approach of blunt commercialism astounding and it appears to be another example of Britain’s rather mean spirited attitude towards its veterans from all wars and conflicts.

I have very recently booked my group’s aircraft with a view to flying in to Duxford for the Flying Legends Display in July. The likely benefit to Duxford of the patronage of aviators such as myself is considerable. It will unfortunately find that if it maintains its policy towards the veterans, it will loose that patronage and the substantial revenue that goes with it. I for one will not be attending any displays this year if this policy remains.

You should be aware that this matter has already become extremely controversial and it forms a significant topic on aviation internet forums. I fear that Imperial War Museum Duxford will continue to suffer substantial damage amongst both the aviation community and the general public as long as it maintains its present policy.
.

bcfc

27th May 2004, 16:37

They've got one from me, too :mad:

Flyin'Dutch'

27th May 2004, 16:57

I have this afternoon again tried a few times to speak to the 'Marketing Team' but only got an answerphone.

Left a message on there this morning asking if they could ring me back.

So far not heard a thing.

From here and 'th'other place' I have had pledges for sponsoring over 100 veterans so far.

I am trying to coordinate this but will ultimately need to speak to someone at Duxford to get it sorted.

In the meantime if you feel so inclined feel free to make a pledge.

Once it is all sorted I will post the details on how to send it.

FD

FNG

27th May 2004, 17:03

Well done FD. If you do get through to them, please ask them to look at the large number of emails piling up in their inbox.

PS: on the Hansard thread there is a list of aviation-friendly MPs. Let's see if we can get one of them involved.

Edit: I have sent an email to John Wilkinson MP.

Evo

27th May 2004, 17:07

In the meantime if you feel so inclined feel free to make a pledge.

I'm in. :ok:

J.A.F.O.

27th May 2004, 21:40

My e-mails gone to IWM and put me down for £8.

If IWM do not back down I would be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with all of those pledging support and let those gentlemen know that the sacrifices made by them, their friends and comrades is still appreciated by those who served afterwards.

Wee Jock

27th May 2004, 22:48

My father-in-law landed on the Queen's section of Sword beach with Lord Lovat's Commandos on D-day. He's no longer with us, God bless him, but I know where he'd tell IWM to stick their £8. He once described to me what he'd seen when he landed on the beach, and all I can say is he was one of the bravest men I've ever met in my life. As for the management of IWM, they're not fit to polish my dad-in-law's boots. Appalling behaviour. £8 pledged.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

rustle

28th May 2004, 07:45

24 hours since I asked a reasonable question and they haven't bothered to respond...

While I was waiting :rolleyes: I found this (http://www.culture.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/ew5ezxvbjdoli5yg4zl7opkdhhx5hag4ut5psrpj6fi7fu74igrue2e32f54 yvawwk45ihrxod4u2355ro7qlq4vhbe/FAImperialWarMuseum.pdf) which you may find interesting.

It details the Public Funding that Duxford/IWM get and what they are supposed to do with it.

An interesting snippet:

2.5.1 to increase participation in culture and the development of the museum sector, the IWM will promote and deliver a wide, lively and educational programme of public activity to develop further its audience and its reputation;

Specifically the Museum will:

Deliver an exciting and diverse programme of temporary exhibitions and events, which will be inclusive of the 60 th Second World War anniversaries of D-Day and VE/VJ Day and the centenary of flight in 2003
(my bolding)

or this one
3. Levels of Public Investment for 2003-2006

3.1 The level of Government funding for the 3 years 2003-2004 to 2005-2006 includes the amount announced in the Secretary of State’s letter of (22 nd October 2002) plus any further amounts agreed prior to the signing of the agreement and will be as follows:
£ms 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06
Totals 16.541 17.491 17.811

Interesting.

Hope they reply soon - you never know what you might find on the Internet ;)

FNG

28th May 2004, 07:49

I am still very sceptical that they are reading our emails. Meanwhile, reinforcements are on the way from Canada and the US, as friends and relatives there have blogged this and emailed like minded contacts to rally round. Project Propeller is round-robining all participants to encourage their protests also.

Flyin'Dutch'

28th May 2004, 07:58

Hi Guys,

From communications with some at Duxfurd it seems that I have managed to leave a voice mail on the correct answerphone and this morning a kind soul did forward me this person's email.

An email to this address was duly dispatched and in this I did refer to the emails that have been sent to the [email protected] so that they know where to look for those messages.

Can I just appeal to all here to make reasoned contributions on here and in any emails.

Back home the saying goes that one catches more flies with honey than vinegar; can't directly translate that but am sure you all catch my drift.

I have further support from one of the leading GA magazines who have pledged to sponsor 50 vets.

In my email to the person in charge I asked for a reply by email or phone by noon.

I will keep you all posted.

Frank Voeten

bar shaker

28th May 2004, 08:25

Please add me to the sponsor list.

Loc-out

28th May 2004, 08:29

They won't reply, as they don't give a dam. If they did they wouldn't charge the vets £8.

Somes up the attitude of the IWM, does it not? Common courtesy (not much of it about these days) would dictate, they reply.

yakker

28th May 2004, 09:27

Count me in, these heroes have already paid more than we can imagine, and to charge them £8 is appalling.
Emailed Duxford, let's hope they see sense. If it really is a finacial problem, increase the normal entrance fee by a pound, and let these guys in for free.

rustle

28th May 2004, 09:59

FD, was that noon L or Z :)

FTR, the sibling to this thread can be found here (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=6373)

Mods - can this be sticky for a few days please??

FJJP

28th May 2004, 10:13

E-mail gone to IWM. Also to my MP, Jonathan Djanogly - it's local enough for him to take an active interest. He's a Sqn Ldr in the Parliamentary scheme and I feel that he will have sympathy for the cause.

smartman

28th May 2004, 10:14

E-mail sent. I also urged them to lay on a free sit-down luncheon for the veterans - as will be laid on by many of the towns and villages throughout Normandy.

Flyin'Dutch'

28th May 2004, 10:20

*****Stop Press*****

I just had an email of the PR people at Duxford. My email and our concerns have been forwarded to the Director and he will contact me.

Hope this is the first of some more good news to come.

FD

Digitalis

28th May 2004, 11:29

E-mailed. Tried to e-mail my MP as well (Sir Alan Hazlehurst - also local), but the FAxYour MP site is down.

goatface

28th May 2004, 11:33

I work there "operationally" on an occasional basis, and I must admit to being ashamed and embarassed to be associated with a management structure who could even think of doing such a thing.
The strength of feeling on the airfield and amongst the operators is much the same.

Last week when I was there I bumped into a group of veterens who were visiting, and the subject was bought up by a "younger" non - vet accompanying them, he was interrupted by one of the group who simply said to me "don't worry about it, we've encountered far worse things than this in our time and we've made it thus far". I was lost for words.

I've printed off all these posts and put them in the internal mail to the Museum Director, he'll know who has done because I've enclosed a note making my own feelings clear, as a consequence I suspect that I wont be at Duxford quite so much in the future, but I'm not bothered if we can put an end to this nonsense.

Rallye Driver

28th May 2004, 14:05

It's all part of the "bean counter" attitude, which considers costs above common sense.

If anyone has flown in to DX recently they will know what I mean.

Before, you went to the tower and paid your landing fee. Not any more. Someone has decided there are too many tills, so now you go to the tower, the FISO takes your details and directs you to the main entrance where you have to queue up again to pay your fee along with the coach parties.

The last time we flew in, instead of taking one person five minutes to take our money, it took three people fifteen minutes, as the FISO has to enter aircraft details onto a computer (as well as covering the radio) for the entrance people to know how much to charge. Because we had Friends of Duxford cards, which entitle us to a discount, this took further phone calls.

Everyone there thinks the arrangement is a nonsense, but it has been imposed from on high. No wonder Duxford have shot themselves in the foot over the D Day veterans. Let's hope the bad publicity will make them think again.

RD

spekesoftly

28th May 2004, 14:08

"don't worry about it, we've encountered far worse things than this in our time and we've made it thus far".

So typical of their generation - no fuss - Bless them All.

FNG

28th May 2004, 14:46

One of the Project Propeller guys received an anodyne reply simply stating the charges. It did not engage with the issue at all.

Flyin'Dutch'

28th May 2004, 14:49

I have not heard from the Director just yet but can report that someone has volunteered their business to handle all the payments if it comes to it.

I will keep you all posted.

FD

troddenmasses

28th May 2004, 15:01

Is anybody here from the BBC? Surely there must be a great story in the making? Over on the flyer list there are lots of people and aviation magazines pledging to pay for the veterans. Why is there never a reporter about when you need one?

Oh, and e-mail has gone to them today from me....Can't do any harm.

BRL

28th May 2004, 15:21

BBC Newsdesk.......... 0208 624 9001.

Genghis the Engineer

28th May 2004, 15:21

I'd much rather see it being a working principle that anybody who is serving, or has served Britain (or for that matter any other country on the same side at the time) in uniform should get into any state sponsored military museum (especially the IWM for free).

But, if they won't accept that premise, put me down as a sponsor as well.

G

Flyin'Dutch'

28th May 2004, 15:41

As I did not get a reply from the Director just yet I have sent him another email asking him to contact me.

We are working behind the scenes to set up a system for collection of monies and will start doing this on Tuesday morning.

Thanks to Mike Cross for coming to my aide in this one.

As soon as I hear anything from Duxford I will be back to let you all know.

Frank Voeten

bcfc

28th May 2004, 15:47

In the states, veterans get heaps of benefits, inc. discount PX stores, leisure facilities and health care. I visited my brother when he was based at Oceana in Virginia, and the facilities open to veterans were superb.

The attitude of the IWM put us to shame.

FD - I'll sponsor one, too.

Flyin'Dutch'

28th May 2004, 17:23

Have just got off the phone speaking to Ted Inman who is the director at Duxford.

He told me that the current arrangements had been made in agreement with the Normandy Veterans Association.

Unfortunately this did not come across in the media coverage.

About 50-60 people have already bought tickets.

As it is short day and there is little time to sort out things differently I struck a deal with Ted and said that we would send the money for 100 vets (being £800) and that he would trace those folks who have paid already and try to give them a refund.

Furthermore any eligible veterans who want to come could do so free of charge.

Mike Cross (of Notam sorting out fame) has kindly agreed to organise the collection of the monies and transfer to Duxford as he can handle credit card payments. He will absorb the costs associated with this exercise. So a big thank you to him.

Details on how to pay your pledge will be posted on here tomorrow by Mike.

Given the amount of pledges I think we will raise far in excess of the £800 needed and I would propose to donate any excess to the Normandy Veterans Association.

Frank Voeten

FNG

28th May 2004, 17:26

Well done Frank. Thanks also to Mike.

BRL

28th May 2004, 17:41

Good result there Frank, well done. Big thanks also to Mike Cross for sorting out the payments side of things, huge pat-on-the-back to you both from us all here. :)

bar shaker

28th May 2004, 19:10

A good result.

Thanks Frank and Mike.

kippermate

28th May 2004, 19:14

Very disappointed in IWM (if it's true)

E-mail sent.

:mad:

rustle

28th May 2004, 19:22

Frank,

I would rather we pay the Normandy Veterans Association directly the whole sum.

Maths is one of my favorite subjects, and this:
The Museum is pleased to be able to offer Normandy veterans, plus one guest, a special rate of just £8 each, but please be aware that these tickets must be booked in advance. Taken from here (http://www.iwm.org.uk/duxford/airshow2004VetOff.htm) (my bolding)

plus this:
About 50-60 people have already bought tickets
Add up to us supporting an organisation who don't support their own Veterans.

But I said I'd pay for ten, and ten I shall pay for - I just hope it is a good day for these very deserving men and women.

Out.

Flyin'Dutch'

28th May 2004, 20:27

R,

The £800 was a suggestion on my part after Ted Inman told me that 50-60 tickets had already being sold and that some more folks would buy some before the event.

It was agreed that any surplus out of that £800 would go to the Normandy Veterans.

I was just trying to be practical given the short time span available to sort this issue out.

Hope that meets with your collective approval.

Frank

treadigraph

28th May 2004, 23:07

Thanks Frank - a cheque from me, and I have no doubt also from my WWII-era Mum will follow your further instructions.

Many thanks to you and to our Vets...

Treadders

Maxflyer

29th May 2004, 07:45

I'm in for £8.00

BeauMan

29th May 2004, 08:30

Frank,

It's been heartwarming, and very humbling, to see the extent of feeling this thread has stirred up. Thank you sir for taking the bull by the horns and getting such a marvellous result. My cheque will be in the post as soon as the details come up. It's very the least I can do to help repay the debt we all owe.

BeauMan

<editted to add...> There has also been some consternation about this over onthe FlyPast forum, so I've taken the liberty of highlighting this thread over there. Hope nobody minds....

paulo

29th May 2004, 09:11

I sent an email before reading the full thread.

If you can take Paypal (or if another trusted ppruner can step in as broker), please PM me and I will donate.

scroggs

29th May 2004, 10:23

I will not provide any money to help the veterans attend this event because, to me, that is simply subsidising the IWM and avoiding the issue. The IWM doesn't care where it gets its money from, and there's no real story for the press to get hold of if the vets are there on someone else's tab.

It would make a far more powerful statement if the veterans refuse to attend, and tell the press that they can't afford to attend because of the IWM's irrational and unreasonable charges. If people pay for them to attend, there is no impact on the IWM and they will go on doing this.

No money for the IWM from me!

rustle

29th May 2004, 14:29

How to pay (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=6373&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=87)

Frank. Okay. Good job. Glad you cared enough to do something about this.

Russell

Mike Cross

29th May 2004, 15:07

One Hundred and Six places sponsored so far.

|f you want to contribute please use rustle's link above.

Mike

Final 3 Greens

29th May 2004, 16:31

I have just made a pledge and would like to thank Frank and Mike for their efforts.

Whilst understanding where Scroggs is coming from, my first priority is to support the veterans in attending the event now, since their numbers are reducing every year, so it literally is "action this day" that is required.

Coughing up a few quid is a small gesture compared to what they did.

However, I shall be pushing my MP to follow this through. This wholde episode is symptomatic of the malaise in our country and it is simply not good enough.

wingandaprayer

29th May 2004, 16:57

Just sent my details

My father was involved in the D.Day landings. Being in the Ox & Bucks light Infantry, he landed by glider as part of the 6th Airborne Division. Sadly he passed away many years ago.

This effort has brought a tear to my eye.

Well done one and all.

FNG

29th May 2004, 19:16

Wingandaprayer, do you mind if I ask if your father was on the Pegasus Bridge mission?

wingandaprayer

29th May 2004, 20:01

FNG

Have sent a PM.

WaaP

Flyin'Dutch'

29th May 2004, 20:45

Ladies and Gentlemen

I have volunteered to process the donations. We can't take Amex or Diners but most other cards should be OK.

If you wish to sponsor some veterans please e-mail me at [email protected]

Please also copy the text in a PM to Flyin' Dutch http://forums.flyer.co.uk/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=233

I do not wish to be the sole person involved in the transaction and by copying it to FD we will be able to cross-check and resolve any discrepancy.

The information we need is:-

The name under which you post
The name and address that your credit card statements go to
A telephone number I can contact you on (please state home, office or mobile)
A valid e-mail address for you
How many veterans you want to sponsor at 8 pounds each.

We will assume that you are happy for your name and the amount of your donation to be made public unless you advise in the message that you want it to be anonymous.

I will then telephone you to obtain your Credit Card details (don't want those sent over the Internet).

My company will process the payments and cover the transaction costs. The whole of the amount of the donations will be transferred by BACS credit to an account to be nominated by FD (Probably either the event organiser or the Normandy Veterans Assn)

The name that will appear on your Credit Card statement is Telecall Ltd
Full contact details at http://www.telecall.uk.com

FD please cross-post this to any other lists.
_________________
Mike

For background info on notam go to http://www.telecall.uk.com/AIS/

Marigold

31st May 2004, 15:31

BTTT until at least Tuesday afternoon

** THE MARIGOLDSTER **

Mike Cross

31st May 2004, 17:09

Score so far.

Sponsorhip promised for at least 220 Veterans

:ok:

Mike

rustle

31st May 2004, 19:05

Fantastic news, Mike. :)

Evo

1st Jun 2004, 17:28

Not sure if this has been suggested, but is anybody out there skilled in the art of publicity, press releases and the like? I'm sure Flying'Dutch' and Mike will get a well-deserved pat on the back from Flyer, Pilot et al in due course, but it would be nice to get a positive GA story out to the wider world for once. Only press we usually get is noise or crashes...

doubleu-anker

1st Jun 2004, 21:16

I was planning to visit IWM, in the near future, but reading this thread, I have decided to go to another establishment instead.

FNG

2nd Jun 2004, 06:00

At least one MP is writing to the IWM about all this. I agree that a story in a local or national paper along the lines pf "Private flyers rally round to honour veterans" would be a positive thing.

Mike Cross

2nd Jun 2004, 07:59

Sponsorship tally now stands at 311 vets.

Fantastic result from all of you.

Mike

Mike Cross

2nd Jun 2004, 09:33

313 now!

Generously contributed by (in no particular order)
G-BLEW
Mike Cross
J.A.F.O.
FNG
TonyL
Dunk
Anon
TonyR
Peter Mundy
Chris Barham
FlyingFemme
Wingandaprayer
Benjamin Ayalon
Final 3 Greens
[email protected]
DamienB
Jenni Morton
David Proudfoot
Mike Wylde
Englishal
Timothy
Red Chilli
Ian Melville
Evo
Adam
Harry Remmington
Anon
Mr Grubby
Rustle
MikeeB
Mark Hewett
Martin Shaw
Flap40
Garethep
Leiafee
Colonel Panic
Treadigraph
Papa Lima
Kolibear
David Viewing
Chris Colgan
Artifax Software Ltd
Rotorhead
Paul Handover
Merlin70
Flyin' Dutch
bcfc
Wee Jock
Bar Shaker

Frank is still busy trying to nail the IWM down.

If you have sent me an e-mail and your name does not appear above please let me know. [email protected]

Mike

Apologiesd to Rob Sawyer who I inadvertantly missed off.

Also now add Ghengis the Engineer to the list.

Mike

FNG

2nd Jun 2004, 13:27

See below. Presumably, the "D" stands for "disingenuous"

End of my comment, Duxford PR spin below:-

______________________________________

D-DAY AIR SHOW STATEMENT

The Imperial War Museum Duxford is delighted to announce that, following some very generous donations from members of the public which have been added to the Museum's own subsidy, veterans of the Normandy campaign will now be able to enjoy the D-Day air show at Duxford for free.

Duxford's Director Ted Inman said today "We are delighted that members of the public have joined with the Museum in the provision of VIP treatment and hospitality for our Normandy veterans. Thanks to their generosity in assisting the Museum with funding, we are now able to make what will surely be a memorable day at Duxford on Sunday 6 June free for veterans of the Normandy Campaign. This is a tremendous achievement and we are extremely grateful to all those who have contributed."

All those Normandy veterans who have already purchased their tickets at £8 will have their money refunded next week. Normandy veterans who arrive at the Show on Sunday 6 June are requested to make themselves known to admission staff and they will also be granted free entry.

Any monies remaining from this special fund after the air show will be donated to the Normandy Veterans Association and the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal.

Ends
2nd June 2004

Notes to editors:

· The Imperial War Museum Duxford has been working with the Normandy Veterans Association on this project since July of 2003.

· When planning began for the D-Day Air show, the Museum recognised that there would be members of the Normandy Campaign who, for whatever reason, would not be going to Normandy and may well wish to commemorate the 60th anniversary of D-Day at Duxford.

· To this end, the Museum wished to make these veterans feel special and provide VIP hospitality for them in terms of a special marquee with prime views of the air show, their own exclusive seating enclosure, own cloakroom facilities, complimentary access to the flight line walk and complimentary souvenir programme.

· The Museum was able to subsidise this to an extent but would still need to make a reduced charge for each Normandy veteran and a guest. This proposal was put to the Normandy Veterans Association (NVA) in December of 2003 and was discussed at various meetings. The NVA supported the Museum in their proposal.

· Also at this time, talks were held with the NVA in respect of a special gathering of Normandy Veterans and the Museum was proud to offer, at no charge, Duxford as a venue for this final reunion. Nearly 1,000 Normandy veterans will be coming to Duxford in July and the Museum will not be making any charge for the use of its facilities.

· In conjunction with a national newspaper, an on-line auction for a solid silver Spitfire which had been donated to the Museum was held last week which raised £1,750 which is being shared equally between the Normandy Veterans Association and the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal. This was first mooted in February as part of the awareness and PR for the D-Day Air Show.

doubleu-anker

2nd Jun 2004, 14:14

Yes all good stuff from the IWM, I am sure. Heavily into damage limitation if you ask me. Spinning their way out of trouble and it smacks of arrogance. What a f*****g grovel. Trying to tell me what great guys they are, when in reality they caused all the trouble in the first place.

Why don't they just say they got it wrong?? I for one would have some sort of respect for them, if they did.

One thing that struck me, was not the slightest hint of and apology. Is common courtesy a thing of the past, and a sign of weakness??

Yes, a wonderful job done by those chaps that helped with the donations.

rustle

2nd Jun 2004, 14:55

Follow-up story from the BBC here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/3769927.stm)

A much more balanced view of life than the "press release" above :)

FNG

2nd Jun 2004, 15:02

You beat me to it rustle. I think that the BBC put it well.

J.A.F.O.

2nd Jun 2004, 15:03

The above post is probably the most nimbly executed spin you'll see at Duxford for quite some time.

redsnail

2nd Jun 2004, 16:11

Just saw a quick news sound bite saying that now veterans from D-day (etc) will be able to go to Duxford for free because of donations from the public.
:ok:

TonyR

2nd Jun 2004, 18:44

The management at the Imperial War Museum, Duxford, have just discussed me with this whole episode. I reminded them by email that they wont have too many years left until they wont have any veterans to charge.

The claim that the NVA supported the Museum in their proposal is typical of their spin, Of course if you ask a Veteran if he or she is willing to pay they will say yes, thats the way they are.

I am not known for bad language but the term "Ungrateful B@$t@rd$" comes to mind.

Tony R

BRL

2nd Jun 2004, 18:47

Mike X, did you get my e-mail??

Titan Locked

2nd Jun 2004, 19:10

Local ceefax here in the wilds of East Anglia have reported that the IWM have dropped plans to charge D-Day veterans an £8 entrance fee (supposedly to cover costs of their enclosure).

Good work by all those who took up the issue.

TL

(Posted in the Mil Forum as well)

Mike Cross

2nd Jun 2004, 19:51

BRL - not seen your mail, sent you a PM with contact details.

Mike

QDMQDMQDM

2nd Jun 2004, 20:04

So, have they actually now dropped plans to charge or do you still need donations?

QDM

Mike Cross

2nd Jun 2004, 21:24

So, have they actually now dropped plans to charge or do you still need donations? Yes they are still charging. Nothing has changed.

The charge of 8 pounds per veteran detailed on their website here (http://www.iwm.org.uk/duxford/airshow2004VetOff.htm) still stands.

The difference that all the generous people who have contributed has made is that instead of the Veterans or their families stumping up the dosh the Private Pilot community is doing it for them.

Thanks to all of you the total is over 2,700 pounds. I suspect that this will be enough to cover those who intend to attend. The IWM have stated that any surplus will go to the Royal British Legion and the Normandy Veterans Association. I now have the details of the IWM account into which the money needs to go and will be processing the payments tomorrow and sending the cash over. I will let you know the final total once that has been done.

Mike

FNG

2nd Jun 2004, 22:12

The above is largely down to FD and Mike, and bear in mind that Duxford are only doing this because we are stumping up. I and many others have gladly subscibed to pay entrance fees, but the principle remains: Duxford should never have contemplated charging the veterans a penny. In reality, Duxford isn't letting anyone in for free: it's accepting our payments and claiming credit as though it was pursuing some public spirited initiative. My opinion of the IWM management is lower now than it was when this story first broke. I initially put the decision to charge the veterans down to an ignorant error made by a junior employee born in the 1980s who probably thinks (along with 80% of the population, apparently) that the Battle of Britain occurred in 1066 (or 1966!) . Now it appears that this was a policy decision by management, still not withdrawn. It will be a long time before I visit Duxford again.

In view of (a) the initial decision and (b) the current spin in respect of the charge, do we now think that this is an issue in respect of which the Director of IWM Duxford should seriously consider his position?

Red Chilli

2nd Jun 2004, 23:15

We headlined Anglia News tonight, however they gave the Duxford view of events as opposed to the Beeb story which was excellent (angry pilots etc.) - still good news for the vets at the end of the day :D

TonyR

2nd Jun 2004, 23:32

I have just emailed "THE SUN" perhaps they might help the management wake up and smell the coffee

doubleu-anker

2nd Jun 2004, 23:41

FNG

Yes, get rid of him!!

Tony R

Good idea!! The Sun will wipe the floor with them (IWM)

PPRuNe Radar

3rd Jun 2004, 00:58

Duxford should never have contemplated charging the veterans a penny. In reality, Duxford isn't letting anyone in for free: i

As Scroggs pointed out many posts ago ... this is a travesty which no ones money from here or any where else will help resolve except to help IWM's bottom line. Hence I choose not to donate to this specific appeal since I fundamentally disagree that our veterans should be charged anything (at any time) by a national organisation.

I, like I am sure did many others, did contemplate contributing to this 'appeal' .... but when I saw that the IWM were going to use these kinds of funds to reimburse the veterans who had already paid, from people such as the generous people on PPRuNe and the Flyer Forum, instead of doing so from the IWM pockets who had pocketed the money already ... and that they were going to use the funds from the remaining contributions to finance all the veterans instead of from their own subsidies (£20M at least from the Lottery Fund or UK Govt I believe is what the IWM have received for their operation) then I am sorry ... but NO WAY will I donate to leaches such as those.

If they get egg on their faces now then so be it. The fact they are trying to make themselves look like good guys, after all that has gone on, says it all .... it will be a long long long time before they get my custom again.

Duxford (IWM) .. you made a big miscalculation. Stop playing all this spin PR crap and make amends. Free entry for the VIPs who helped make this event happen almost 50 years ago. Not funded by an appeal such as here, just make it happen. Without them, then Jobsworths like you would simply not exist.

I now await a rebuke from Danny for getting too involved as a Mod :)

TonyR

3rd Jun 2004, 06:49

PPRuNe Radar,

Those were my thoughts at first but I would rather let the B@$t@rd$ have a few quid of mine than have the Veterans pay.

I completly understand your views and perhaps we should have gone to the press "on mass" and forced the IWM to back down.

What has been done IMOP has been worthwhile, now lets se if we can change things at Duxford for the future.

Tony R

Evo

3rd Jun 2004, 07:00

I thought we were paying for 80 and the rest were going to be let in free?

As it is short day and there is little time to sort out things differently I struck a deal with Ted and said that we would send the money for 100 vets (being £800) and that he would trace those folks who have paid already and try to give them a refund.

Furthermore any eligible veterans who want to come could do so free of charge.

With 300+ donations that would be a nice lump of extra money for a good cause. Now Mike says

Yes they are still charging. Nothing has changed.

The charge of 8 pounds per veteran detailed on their website here still stands.

So is all this going straight into the pockets of the IWM?

FNG

3rd Jun 2004, 07:25

If anyone would like to put their (real) name to a hard copy letter to the Director at Duxford inviting him, at the least, to review this event and to make a proper, unspun statement about it, kindly send me an email to [email protected]

Suggested text of letter follows:-

Edwin Inman OBE
Director
Imperial War Museum Duxford
Duxford Aerodrome
Cambridgeshire CB2 4QR

Dear Mr Inman

We are a group of private pilots and aviation enthusiasts who have been gravely concerned by the Museum’s decision to charge Normandy veterans an admission charge at the Museum’s D-Day event at Duxford. Many of us have offered to contribute money in order to ensure that no veteran has to pay to attend an event commemorating the courage and sacrifice of the generation that gave so much to preserve our freedom during World War Two.

Our concern has, however, been exacerbated by the ungracious and, in our opinion, disingenuous manner in which the Museum’s press statements have responded to public criticism of the decision to charge veterans. The Museum has publicly presented the offer made by many of us to pay charges for veterans as though it were some form of public-spirited initiative on the part of the Museum. Furthermore, we understand that the Museum is proposing to collect charges from public supporters on behalf of veterans, but not in fact to waive the charges themselves. It appears that the Museum has not accepted the principle that the cost of the event should be borne by the Museum through its public funding and/or through general admission charges not levied on veterans or paid on their behalf.

We are also disappointed that emails and letters to the Museum concerning this matter have gone unanswered.

We invite you now to accept, and to state publicly (1) that no charge will be made to or collected on behalf of any veteran for attending the D-Day event (2) that the Museum was in error in setting any admission charge for veterans.

We suggest that contributions made by members of the public to offset charges to veterans should be donated to appropriate charities.

Yours sincerely

Heatseeker

3rd Jun 2004, 09:58

Poor decision on IWM's part I think. Appropriate e-mail sent asking them to reconsider. As somebody born only a month after D-day I personally owe the veterans my thanks.

Heat.

Kolibear

3rd Jun 2004, 10:12

Spot of confusion here I think.

IWMs statement - onthe top of the previous page states:-

Normandy veterans who arrive at the Show on Sunday 6 June are requested to make themselves known to admission staff and they will also be granted free entry.

If we've all sponsored, lets say, 350 Vets, what are they going to say to Vet 351 when he arrives - 'Sorry, but we're run out of contributions, you'll have to pay'?

So I think that we've actually forced their hand here.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the future , for example, will BoB veterans be allowing into September airshows free of charge?

FNG

3rd Jun 2004, 10:20

Yes, but later in the press release it appears to be assumed that the entrance fees will be covered by donations, with any surplus to charity. You are probably right in your "veteran 351" example, but the IWM has not conceded the principle that no charge should have been made. From the outset, the costs of hospitality for the veterans should have been absorbed by the Museum's public funding, or added to general admission fees.

Evo

3rd Jun 2004, 10:21

I still want to know why we need to pay for more than 80. :confused:

Mike Cross

3rd Jun 2004, 10:31

FNG saiddo we now think that this is an issue in respect of which the Director of IWM Duxford should seriously consider his position? He's already done that, but not for the reason FNG suggests. He leaves on 11 June.

Evo saidSo is all this going straight into the pockets of the IWM? In a word, YES. I understand any surplus once the IWM have taken their 8 pounds per veteran will be shared beween the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal and the Normandy Veterans Association.

Following on from the generosity of you lot:-

I have this morning sent the following e-mail to Linda Quinn, Finance Officer of the IWM

"2780.00 (Two Thousand Seven Hundred and Eighty) pounds has been sent from our bank by Same Day Bank Transfer. This is money pledged by Private Pilots to pay for the entry fees for Veterans of the Normandy Campaign who would otherwise have been charged by the Imperial War Museum for attending the D-Day Anniversary Air Show at Duxford on Sunday 6 June 2004.

Dr Frank Voeten, himself a pilot, heard that Veterans were to be charged eight pounds each to attend the Airshow and made the information known to the Private Pilot Community via the Internet. As a result, many pilots came forward offering to sponsor the Veterans. No-one has been approached and asked to donate, they have all spontaneously volunteered to do so. The donors fly light aircraft for pleasure and for business and greatly value the freedoms resulting from the sacrifices of those who took part in the Normandy landings. They strongly feel that those Veterans who wish to do so should attend the Airshow as honoured guests and should certainly not have to pay to be there.

There are a few stragglers whose donations I have yet to collect and an additional amount will be transferred once those payments are in.

Please let me know the final disposal of the money after the event, i.e. how many guests were sponsored and the disposal of any balance outstanding. I gather the intention is that it should be shared equally between the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal and the Normandy Veterans Association."

phnuff

3rd Jun 2004, 12:49

Sorry - I have only just found this thread and words fail me how the IWM could even consider charging veterans. The Director should have his OBE repossessed instantly.

I am also confused. Is the situation that the IWM has backed down from charging because they are happy to do the right thing or are the veteran's only being allowed in for free because of sponsorship by individuals ? If its the latter, then quite frankly, the situation stinks; if its the former, then yes its spin, but at least they have shown themselves, belatedly, to be capable of seeing sense and not afraid to do so publicly (unlike too many politicians, but that is another post) !

Also if it is the case that sponsorhip is the reason and more is needed, how can I contribute ?

wingandaprayer

3rd Jun 2004, 12:53

I have just phoned Duxford, thought I'd be crafty and see what they would say about a donation by phone to them.

They tried to put me through to Linda Quinn (01223 499323) who I am told will take donations for the fund, but she is apparently out of the office. So anyone to late to get money to Mike can, it seems, still make a donation through her.

I was told by the lady I spoke to that any Vets turning up on the day will no longer have to pay. The donations have been used to re imburse those who have paid, with the remainder going to charity, and any others will get in free.

Hopefully they will see sense and let them ALL in for free and ALL the donations will go to charity.

Now to send my letter of complaint

WaaP

Wee Jock

3rd Jun 2004, 13:58

Duxford is of course only part of the IWM and maybe we should be dealing with the organ grinders and not the monkeys. Take a look at this lot:

Trustees of the Imperial War Museum
President: HRH The Duke of Kent KG GCMG GCVO
Vice President
and Chairman: Admiral Sir Jock Slater GCB LVO DL
Deputy Chairman: Air Chief Marshal Sir Peter ****** GCB DFC AFC RAF
Board Members: Miss Kate Adie OBE
Ian Andrews CBE TD
Sir John Coles GCMG
Dame Jean Else DBE MA
Sir Robin Fearn KCMG
Christopher Fisher Esq
Professor Sir Lawrence Freedman KCMG CBE FBA
Miss Jyoti Munsiff
Rabbi Dame Julia Neuberger DBE
Lieutenant General Sir Christopher Wallace KBE
Bill Woodrow Esq RA
His Excellency Michael L'Estrange (Australian High Commissioner)
His Excellency Mel Cappe (Canadian High Commissioner)
His Excellency Shri Ranendra Sen (Indian High Commissioner)
His Excellency The Hon Russell Marshall CNZM (New Zealand High Commissioner)
Her Excellency Dr Maleeha Lodhi (High Commissioner for Pakistan)
Her Excellency Lindiwe Mabuza (South African High Commissioner)
His Excellency Faisz Musthapha (Sri Lankan High Commissioner)
One vacancy
Director-General Mr Robert Crawford
Secretary Mr Jon Card
The Sovereign appoints the President of the Board. The Prime Minister appoints ten members, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs two (Sir Robin Fearn and Sir John Coles), the Secretary of State for Defence one (Mr Andrews) and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport one (Miss Adie). Their High Commissioners represent seven Commonwealth Governments ex officio.

I reckon its Kate Adie (why isn't she a Dame??) we ought to be talking to, she's got a lot in common with the veterans as she's also been shot at. I'm going to have a go at contacting her. I'll let you know how I get on (Or don't get on...)

Mike Cross

3rd Jun 2004, 14:08

PhnuffIs the situation that the IWM has backed down from charging No, they are still charging.

or are the veteran's only being allowed in for free because of sponsorship by individuals Yes

IWM are still charging 8 pounds for each Veteran and each of them may also bring a companion for 8 pounds. This is a reduction on the normal admission price. The sponsorhip that the forumites have provided will hopefully ensure that none of the Veterans actually has to fork out because we will be paying their admission fees for them.

Evo

3rd Jun 2004, 14:09

Can you really not say ****** on PPRuNe??? Obviously not. :confused:

phnuff

3rd Jun 2004, 14:43

Chairman: Admiral Sir Jock Slater GCB LVO DL

I shared a King Air Flight from Northolt to Barrow (Vickers) with him about 15 years ago. I bet he wouldnt remember me :}

I have just tried ringing the IWM as well. Linda Quinn (01223 499323) is on Voice Mail. I'll try again later

Mike Cross

3rd Jun 2004, 22:28

Oh the power of spin :yuk:

http://www.itvregions.com/news.php?region=Anglia&content=6614&cat=0
Veterans get free show at Duxford

2 Jun, 2004, 17:19

War veterans who want to attend the Duxford D-Day celebrations will now be able to go free of charge, after a change of heart by the war museum.

Divergent Phugoid!

3rd Jun 2004, 23:55

Is this really going to be a free entry or will it be funded by the donations made by a couple of persons mentioned earlier in the thread on the mill site?(sorry guys/girls cant get back to the page to name you)

Its such an outrage that the IWM could even contemplate such a charge.

Stern email sent.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: !!!!!

FNG

4th Jun 2004, 07:11

The donations have been made by dozens of people, private flyers and others, and brilliantly organised by Frank Voeten and Mike Cross.

Mike Cross

4th Jun 2004, 07:26

If you're not keen on the ITV version (link above) try the
BBC's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/3769927.stm) take on it.
Donations from members of the public are paying for tickets to allow D-Day veterans to attend a military air show in their honour.

The Imperial War Museum is charging the former Normandy troops £8 to watch the celebration.

BBC or ITV? Your choice

Mike

rustle

4th Jun 2004, 07:30

Mike, we know the reason for the differing views.

BBC in this instance talked to the owners of the facts whereas ITV to my knowledge didn't bother and relied on the BS emanating from IWM.

(I hope there's enough acronyms in that sentence for one Friday morning :O )

Maxflyer

4th Jun 2004, 08:39

Just because the bean counters have been allowed to mar what is meant to be a commemoration of bravery and sacrifice, we shouldn't completely tar the IWM with the same brush. We live in a bottom line society and as such every organization is forced to get what they can where they can. This in no way excuses IWM, but we have shown, via the efforts of Flying Dutch and Mike Cross, that however it is dressed up, our concerns about this attitude are listened to.

So why not suggest that someone from the GA community be nominated for the vacant position on the IWM board? That way (if successful) when future occasions similar to this one arise where a modicum of common sense and decency are required, the kinds of view expressed by contributors to this forum will be made clear to the board in general and of course, the bean counters.

I would like to visit the IWM in all its guises and feel confident that its main objective of educating each new generation about past sacrifices and struggles continues, but not with an overriding profit motive.

I would nominate someone like Mike Cross if they were interested.

J.A.F.O.

4th Jun 2004, 08:48

Driving in to work this morning I heard Mr Inman from IWM interviewed on BBC Radio Suffolk stating that the veterans would now get in for free.

I voiced my feelings to the station and I've just been interviewed in response saying that the IWM is not letting anybody in for free, they are merely letting others foot the bill. I pointed out that if it were not for these veterans and many thousands like them the IWM would not have a reason to exist at all, they are publicly funded and should have allowed the veterans in for free. I also stated that once they realised the depth of feeling from the general public they should have held up their hands, admitted their mistake and dropped the charge.

There has certainly been a great deal of debate about this issue and very little of it has been in IWM's favour. Apparently the radio station has been inundated with offers of donations, so what FD and Mike started here is continuing apace. Well done to both of them and everyone who contributed.

Mr Inman may have tried to get his spin across to the public this morning but we got the last word on the subject.

I hope that all of the veterans visiting Duxford this weekend have a fantastic time and use the eight quid to have a couple of beers to remember those who aren't able to join them.

DRJAD

4th Jun 2004, 08:54

Then well done to you, too, J.A.F.O.

Would that it were on national broadcasting, also.

Kolibear

4th Jun 2004, 09:03

I've just fired off a Mr Angry snotagram to the ITV pointing out that the IWM is still charging, but its US thats paying. (And proud of it too!)

If you wish to comment, then the e-mail address isses are:-

[email protected]. and [email protected]

I don't often get annoyed, but that statement from the ITV made me see red!!

FNG

4th Jun 2004, 11:07

Thanks to all of those who put their names to the letter to Mr Inman at IWM. I am awaiting a reply.

FNG

4th Jun 2004, 14:44

Duxford has now started sending out an anodyne, standardised email reply to those who complained in respect of its stance on this matter, reiterating the spin and making no apology.

rustle

4th Jun 2004, 14:46

...so we should send a similar reply to [email protected] who is the Assistant to the Head of Visitor Services, Imperial War Museum, Duxford

Can I use your reply?

FNG

4th Jun 2004, 14:54

I wrote back as follows:-

I am not impressed at receiving a standardised response identical to that provided to others who have complained of the Museum's handling of this matter. I wrote yesterday to the Director and I invite a full response from him. I am one of the people who donated the funds in respect of which the Museum is seeking in its public statements to claim some kind of credit. The Museum ought to be prepared to admit that it made a fundamental error in seeking to charge veterans for attending the D-Day event. The Museum should please stop trying to spin its way out of this and should publicly apologise.

J.A.F.O.

4th Jun 2004, 18:21

Fully agree FNG and I think that anyone who receives a standardised email should send back the text from FNG above and see how they like being ignored.

wingandaprayer

5th Jun 2004, 10:38

On Thursday I e-mailed Sky News & CNN about this, no reply as yet !
I have also sent a "Disgusted of ....." letter to Duxford.

I can’t attend the show even if I wanted to, but perhaps a petition on the gates hopefully signed by most of the public attending, when handed to Duxford might change their minds ??

WaaP

Mike Cross

5th Jun 2004, 19:19

Although I did not receive a reply to my e-mail pointing out the IWM had not had a change of heart I am glad to see that ITV have now updated their story.
http://www.itvregions.com/news.php?region=Anglia&content=6614&cat=0
The museum had argued that the reduced price of £8 for veterans would cover costs for special facilities, including a huge marquee. Now, thanks to more than £3000 raised by local aviators, more than 300 veterans will be able to attend free of charge.

Now any who have already paid for a ticket will get their money back - and all will know that people do value what they did for their country on the beaches of Normandy sixty years ago.

Mike

doubleu-anker

6th Jun 2004, 08:27

Couldn't agree more.

Problem is, by Monday morning the so called "management" at the IWM would have forgotten all about it.

"Corporate" thinking will prevail once more, on how to make the next quick buck. Maybe it will be, "let's screw the IHC" next time.

:yuk:

Wide-Body

6th Jun 2004, 23:13

The question now. Was it worth it.? Although some good individual efforts (aerostars, P-47 and the british legion chap before the 2 min silence) Was it a good D-Day oriented show or perhaps a little lacklustre. Certainly profitable for theIWM looking at the crowds and the motorway tail back at 1200.

Regards

Wide

Big Hilly

7th Jun 2004, 12:35

I got this reply this morning:

7 June 2004

Dear Big Hilly (Well obviously not really, but anonymous forums and all that)

Thank you for your email concerning the charging of veterans at the D Day Anniversary Air Show at Duxford on 6 June 2004.

The Museum recognised that there would be veterans who would not be able to travel to France for the 60th anniversary celebrations and might wish to attend an anniversary air show instead, we therefore wanted to offer some special facilities where the veterans could enjoy the show in a VIP marquee. The reserved area for veterans included private seating in an advantageous viewing position, access to the flight line walk, a complimentary souvenir programme, cloakroom facilities, etc. The decision was made to make an £8 charge (the standard senior citizen charge on a non event day) for the veteran and a guest as a contribution to the cost for these facilities. The Museum has been working with the Normandy Veterans Association throughout and this organisation fully supported our plans.

We have also been working with the NVA and the Royal British Legion to auction a valuable solid silver scale model of a Spitfire. All the proceeds from this will be split equally between the Normandy Veterans Association and the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal. For information the NVA will also be holding a major reunion here at Duxford on 12 July 2004 when approximately 1,000 members are expected to attend. The Museum is not making any charge for this facility.

The Museum is pleased to announce that, following some very generous donations from members of the public which has been added to the Museum’s own subsidy, veterans of the Normandy campaign were able to enjoy the D Day air show at Duxford free of charge. All veterans who had already purchased tickets will have their money refunded. Any monies remaining in this fund will be donated to the Normandy Veterans Association and the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal.

I hope this information will provide a balanced view of the way the IWM Duxford has approached this very important anniversary. Thank you again for your valued input.

Yours sincerely

Stuart Lawson
Front of House Manager

High Wing Drifter

7th Jun 2004, 14:02

Thanks Big Hilly. Very decent of Duxford ineed if I may say so.

PPRuNe Pop

7th Jun 2004, 15:53

I got exactly the same letter. But since it was PPRuNe members who donated I have to say I think they should acknowledge that. Much hard work was done by the guys on PF after all.

Mike Cross

7th Jun 2004, 16:45

HWD

That was a standard e-mail, received by many.

Much irritation was caused by an IWM Press Release. Here is the text of it.
D-DAY AIR SHOW STATEMENT

The Imperial War Museum Duxford is delighted to announce that, following some very generous donations from members of the public which have been added to the Museum's own subsidy, veterans of the Normandy campaign will now be able to enjoy the D-Day air show at Duxford for free.

Duxford's Director Ted Inman said today "We are delighted that members of the public have joined with the Museum in the provision of VIP treatment and hospitality for our Normandy veterans. Thanks to their generosity in assisting the Museum with funding, we are now able to make what will surely be a memorable day at Duxford on Sunday 6 June free for veterans of the Normandy Campaign. This is a tremendous achievement and we are extremely grateful to all those who have contributed."

All those Normandy veterans who have already purchased their tickets at £8 will have their money refunded next week. Normandy veterans who arrive at the Show on Sunday 6 June are requested to make themselves known to admission staff and they will also be granted free entry.

Any monies remaining from this special fund after the air show will be donated to the Normandy Veterans Association and the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal.

Ends
2nd June 2004

Notes to editors:

· The Imperial War Museum Duxford has been working with the Normandy Veterans Association on this project since July of 2003.

· When planning began for the D-Day Air show, the Museum recognised that there would be members of the Normandy Campaign who, for whatever reason, would not be going to Normandy and may well wish to commemorate the 60th anniversary of D-Day at Duxford.

· To this end, the Museum wished to make these veterans feel special and provide VIP hospitality for them in terms of a special marquee with prime views of the air show, their own exclusive seating enclosure, own cloakroom facilities, complimentary access to the flight line walk and complimentary souvenir programme.

· The Museum was able to subsidise this to an extent but would still need to make a reduced charge for each Normandy veteran and a guest. This proposal was put to the Normandy Veterans Association (NVA) in December of 2003 and was discussed at various meetings. The NVA supported the Museum in their proposal.

· Also at this time, talks were held with the NVA in respect of a special gathering of Normandy Veterans and the Museum was proud to offer, at no charge, Duxford as a venue for this final reunion. Nearly 1,000 Normandy veterans will be coming to Duxford in July and the Museum will not be making any charge for the use of its facilities.

· In conjunction with a national newspaper, an on-line auction for a solid silver Spitfire which had been donated to the Museum was held last week which raised £1,750 which is being shared equally between the Normandy Veterans Association and the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal. This was first mooted in February as part of the awareness and PR for the D-Day Air Show.

The problem is that this was interpreted by some editors (including ITV) as a "change of heart" on the part of the IWM. Not so.

Some MP's who contacted IWM on behalf of constituents replied to those constituents saying "It's all right, I have been assured that the veterans are not going to be charged." While strictly accurate, this misrepresents the real position.

IWM have charged £8 per Veteran to attend. They have not changed their mind about that at all.

What they have done is accept donations from members of the public who have offered to pay so that the veterans do not have to.

So long as you clearly understand that the IWM ARE charging £8 per veteran and are happy with it then I too am happy.

I (and I suspect many others) feel that it would have been much better if IWM had set the public entrance fees at a level that would have provided sufficient margin to allow the Veterans to attend free of charge as honoured guests.

It is the generosity of many on this forum and elsewhere in paying the veterans' entrance fees to the IWM that has ensured that they did not have to pay.

______

Received this e-mail this morning but due to firewall problems have been delayed in posting it here.
Hello Micheal,

You and your donors are all spledid. I would like to thank you all on behalf of the Museum and the Veterans your donations have enabled to attend the D-Day Air Show.

As soon as I have all the relavent information from banks etc I will contact you.

Regards,

Linda.

Linda Quinn
Finance Officer
Imperial War Museum Duxford

She will be coming back with info on how many attended and how the money was spent. Will put it on this thread when I receive it. The intention is that any surplus will be split equally between the Normandy Veterans Association and the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal

Mike

FAA Old timer

9th Jun 2004, 17:26

Having just heard what you fellas did I would like to thank you for your support for the vets.

My father was in the air in a P51 on D-Day but not over the landings, he was part of a diversion to the north east.

He and his buddy did sneek off to look at the thousands of ships waiting off the French coast, 70 miles from where he was supposed to be.

My father and I both flew P51s in Korea in the early 1950s (I was 19 with 110 hours) he went home to continue instructing and I continued flying the then new F-86 Sabre.

With 50 something years and over 23,000 hours flying, I am proud to be a pilot, I don't know of any other pastime where you will find a more helpful and decent bunch of men & women.

I still enjoy climbing into my old super cub and punching holes in clouds or a low flight along the Florida coast.

Thanks again

John Anderson

Flyin'Dutch'

9th Jun 2004, 18:18

Hi John,

That was entirely our pleasure.

Nice to see that someone with your experience enjoys flying the Cub.

I like all flying but if I was forced to choose one form only for the rest of my days, it would be a Cub.

Frank

Mike Cross

14th Jun 2004, 10:12

Sent Linda Quinn at IWM an e-mail last week.
Hi Linda

Just to help you with your sums
You should have received from me

2780.00 in the first transfer
336.00 in the second transfer
3116.00 in total

You should have then taken 80.00 from (3 OL's) Credit Card, bringing the total to 3196.00

At 8.00 per veteran this comes out at Three Hundred and Ninety Nine and a Half veterans!

I gather Jenni Morton was upset by the thought of half a veteran so she sent you a cheque for 4.00 to sponsor his other half.

This should have brought the total to 3,200.00 or a nice round figure of 400 veterans sponsored

I trust they had a good time.

Reply received this morning
Hi Mike,

Yes, it was a brilliant day for everyone that came. For veterans, so nostalgic, many a tear was shed.
I understand from Ted (Ted Inman, Director IWM) all of this money is to be paid to the Normandy Veterans Association, Ted told me he would be writing to you to that effect. I will wait for another week before sorting it all out, taking into account any stragglers.

Tell Jenni Well Done, and once again thank you all.

Regards,
Linda.

Linda Quinn
Finance Officer
Imperial War Museum Duxford
tel 01223 499323 fax 01223 837267

e-mail [email protected]

FNG

17th Jun 2004, 09:47

The Director of the IWM at Duxford has finally stated that, with hindsight, it would have been better not to have set any charge for the veterans. As indicated above, all of the money raised is now going to Veteran's Associations.

rustle

17th Jun 2004, 10:07

Where's that documented please, FNG?

FNG

17th Jun 2004, 10:17

In a letter replying to a letter from me and about a dozen others. I shall reply asking for permission to publish the full text here.

Flyin'Dutch'

17th Jun 2004, 10:29

I would be very grateful for sight of that letter as you can understand. The only correspondence I have had was the standard stuff which was obviously cut and pasted.

To say that I was hacked off to the n-th degree is an understatement.

F

rustle

17th Jun 2004, 10:35

Thanks FNG, is that the one I signed as well?

FNG

17th Jun 2004, 10:56

Yes, I have just emailed you about it.

J.A.F.O.

17th Jun 2004, 12:58

The race is not always to the swift but to he who keeps on running.

That looks like complete victory to me, the veterans got their day out for free, Ted Inman is magnanimous in defeat, the NVA gets a few grand to help them out and we did a great job.

Well done to everyone involved, particularly Flying Dutch and Mike Cross for all of their hard work. Let us be magnanimous in victory.

FNG

17th Jun 2004, 13:06

I agree with that, JAFO.

Kolibear

17th Jun 2004, 14:22

I can agree with that too and to show that there are no hard feelings, is anyone interested in a Pprune Duxford visit thats been organised for 27th June?

Duxford visit (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124441)

BRL

17th Jun 2004, 14:44

I agree with JAFO, good call.

As for the pprune visit, it should be free for us if the management feel it within themselves to pay us back for all the hard work done here. It is the least they can do I reckon.

rustle

17th Jun 2004, 14:58

...it should be free for us if the management feel it within themselves to pay us back for all the hard work done hereI doubt they will ever see it that way, BRL

The noise here and on the Flyer Forum actually cost IWM money they would otherwise have willingly grabbed from the veterans.

TonyR

17th Jun 2004, 15:13

I also think this worked out well, I was going to place Duxford on my "pass on by" list but I will be on way back from the south coast on 27th so I might drop in.

Tony

bar shaker

17th Jun 2004, 19:36

Have they managed to get the pikies back yet, to make good the newly tarmac'd runway.

I'm always a tad wary of tarmac gangs that ask if they can let their horses graze, whilst they work ;)

But the cost savings look good on paper!!

Mike Cross

23rd Jun 2004, 12:06

e-mail received last week while I was on holiday.
Good Afternoon Mr Cross

On behalf of the Director, Ted Inman, who actually left the museum on Friday, 11 June, I would like to say a huge thank you for the wonderful gesture of support for the veterans from you and your colleagues.

I will not rehearse again with you the special facilities we provided for the veterans who wished to attend the air show on Sunday but do regret that we caused distress to you, your colleagues and other members of the public. As you will know by now, and as far as we are aware, no D Day veterans were charged for entry to the museum and we are now in the process of refunding all advance ticket purchase money to the veterans and to other D Day veterans who have written in.

As agreed, all the monies we have received for the veterans from the public is being donated to the Normandy Veterans Association and the Royal British Legion who know best how to distribute the money to their most needy members.

I don't know if you attended the show but we had a superb crowd of over 25,000, which of course also brought its own problems of sheer weight of traffic, but all the veterans and their guests in the special marquee appeared to have a good time. We have had a number of compliments from them about the day including news of reunions. The brief service of commemoration was excellent and to see a crowd of that number, plus all the traders and staff, totally silent for two minutes was very moving.

The Normandy Veterans Association is holding its annual reunion (probably its last) at Duxford in July. The Imperial War Museum Duxford has not made any charges at all to the Association and its members and guests for this event and we always viewed this as our contribution (one of many over the years) to the veterans in this special anniversary year.

On behalf of the veterans who will benefit from your generosity, thank you again.

Do by all means contact me direct if you need any further information.

Kind regards
Julia

Julia S Smith
Head of Business Development
Imperial War Museum Duxford
tel 01223 499360 fax 01223 837267