Old Chestnut-Are FAA PPLs strictly legal

[Max_Gross]

I expect to get screamed at for reopening this, but, in a call to the UK CAA this morning I was told that an FAA PPL is not strictly legal because of the Class 3 medical.
The Irish IAA have been taking this view too.
Has anyone got a piece of paper for the UK that refutes this?
:mad:

[FNG]

Article 21(4) of the Air Navigation Order. See also Article 26(2) and note that it does not apply to FAA licences.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.PDF

You shouldn't believe everything that you hear on the phone (or everything you may read on websites, for that matter), but the ANO is a piece of paper invested with a special magic by virtue of Brenda and her little helpers.

[md 600 driver]

fng do you work for the caa your answer sounds just like they say no bllody use

[FNG]

Thanks a lot, md 600 driver. I was trying to be helpful. Read my profile. I work for myself. If you are going to slag me off, kindly do so in English.

Edit: If you cannot be bothered to click on the link, allow me to summarise: an FAA licence is legal.

[Flying Lawyer]

In ordinary language, Article 21(4) of the ANO, says this:
A licence granted by a Contracting State is treated as a valid licence in the UK, and you can use it to fly - unless the CAA in a particular case says you can't.
The above applies only to full licenses, not student licences.

There are restrictions -

A pilot relying on this provision is not entitled:
(i) to fly for the purpose of public transport or aerial work, or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; nor
(ii) to fly in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules; nor
(iii) to give flying instruction.

Max_Gross
I don't know if the CAA has directed that FAA PPL holders with Class 3 medicals may not use their FAA licences in the UK. I'll try to find out and come back to you.

FNG
The CAA has a reputation for never giving a straight-forward answer to a straight-forward question, and telling pilots to look up the relevant legislation. I don't know if it's true - I've never asked the CAA a question. I suspect that's what md 600 driver had in mind. ;)


FL

[Taildragger55]

Be nice to FL people,


There are not a lot of other lawyers out there who are , so vastly knowledgable about flying law, so helpful, and so free....

[md 600 driver]

fng
the question was about FAA licences
your comment Article 21(4) of the Air Navigation Order. See also Article 26(2) and note that it does not apply to FAA licences.
and note that it does not apply to FAA licences.
was not helpfull it sounded like the reply i keep getting from the caa when i ask the same question

A licence granted by a Contracting State is treated as a valid licence in the UK, and you can use it to fly - unless the CAA in a particular case gives a direction to the contrary


to put that in english if the caa says you cant use your faa licence in the uk you cant

thanks FL for putting that in as i think you may now know that is possible that the caa can and will give this direction

[FNG]

MD, I , of course, have been carefully reading all of your correspondence with the CAA. Oh, and tapping your phone as well.

The CAA could issue such a direction, but so far it hasn't. It appears that they answered your question. Like FL, I don't know if they answer other people's questions clearly, because I've never asked them one (unless you count: "Here are some money and some forms. Can I have a flying licence please?", to which they answered: (1) "ker-ching!", and (2) "yes").

FL, perhaps, but in that event md's clarity of expression appears comparable to that of some of the more arcane portions of the legislation.

[pilotwolf]

There was a similar thread on Rotorheads(?) a while back, but think that applied more to flying G reg on an FAA licence...

My FAA Class 1 had lapsed through time to a FAA Class 3 and couldnt get straight answer out of CAA except that FAA Class 3 doesnt seem to meet JAA Class 2 standards. So I just renewed my Class 1 - safest and easist option!

Perhaps ask for the Class 2 next renewal - most AME seem to charge the same - after all its just a different key on the typewriter!!!

[md 600 driver]

fng
i dont understand why would you be tapping my phone and reading my correspondece with the caa but maybe you are that sort of person maybe you are the with the caa,

On the otherhand as you get most things wrong about me i suppose you cant be from the caa and you cant be tapping or reading my mail because if you was you would know that the caa CAN AND WILL ISSUE A DIRECTION .
I have had one i am not allowed to fly in uk airspace on my faa licence and faa medical [i can however fly anywhere else in the world.]
but i would presume you know this already thats why you replied as you did maybe some day someone will ground you and i await that day that i may have fun at your expence

i am sorry i am not educated enough to reply to you in same way as you have to me but if i was i would be able to do your job wouldnt i , my grammar and spelling is bad but that does not preclude me from replying same as you having manners

steve

[Bluebeard777]

The Irish Aviation Authority was referred to above. I understand that some months ago, in response to a question from a flying school, the IAA opined that an FAA private certificate with 3rd class medical was not acceptable for flying in Ireland, on the grounds that the 3rd class medical does not conform to ICAO requirements. News of this change to longstanding practice caused consternation among those affected, and complaints to the FAA.

The IAA has recently published an AIC to give effect to this point. I understand a "second class" medical is now to be required for recognition of a non-JAA licence.

Whether a signatory country can unilaterally change its obligations under the ICAO mutual recognition provisions is perhaps open to question.

Presumably the IAA will have discussed its changed stance in this matter with the CAA.

[FNG]

MD, perhaps you are winding us up, in which case, well done. If not, however, and if you really took seriously my comment about tapping your phone and reading your mail, then I am rendered temporarily speechless (actually, this is a fib: I was going to say something rather more acerbic, but I shall refrain).

My initial response on this thread was an answer to the specific question posed by Max Gross, who asked for a reference to the specific document which establishes that FAA licences are generally legal in the UK, subject to direction to the contrary. I provided that reference. Being neither telepathic nor privy to your dealings with the CAA, I was unable to divine from your initial post any specific question. If I had done, and had an answer to suggest, I would have done so. Instead, you kindly and politely told me that my reference to the document requested was "no bloddy use" (have you been reading Eric Newby?). I am sorry if you have encountered problems with your individual licence, but the general position remains as indicated in the ANO.

[Flyin'Dutch']

B777,

I don't know if the IAA has the AICs on tap on the net like the CAA has, but if so can you give us a link.

FD

Just managed to answer my own question.

B777, I can not see an AIC with those contents on the IAA site.

FD

[englishal]

My FAA Class 1 had lapsed through time to a FAA Class 3

This is the issue really. Almost everyone who has an FAA Class 3 will be able to get an FAA Class 2 in its place without much problem. But as we know, an FAA Class 2 lapses into a class 3 after 12 months, likewise the Class 1 lapses to class 2 after 6 months, then remains a class 2 for a further 12 months (I think) before becoming class 3.

I would assume that going through and passing the FAA 1/2 medical examination would be proof enough that ones medical fitness is suitable to pilot an aeroplane in UK airspace (and Irish airspace), even if the medical certificate had lapsed to a class 3?

What happens if I were to fly an N reg aircraft, on an FAA Class 3 medical, but also hold a JAA Class 2? In this instance I'm using my FAA privileges, certificate and medical, and the JAA medical is irrelevant, but if I were to be 'ramp checked' then according to what is posted here I would be illegal.......

I wonder how the courts would view all of this nonsense?@

EA

[FNG]

Al, not yet illegal unless the CAA issue a direction to you, declining to accept your FAA ticket as valid because of the class 3 medical. If they are really concerned about the medical, I don't know why they don't just say "FAA OK, but make sure you have a JAA class 2 medical as well", which on your scenario would cause you no difficulties. Also, Al, the problems that may arise appear to relate to using the FAA licence on a G reg aircraft, not an N reg.

If I recall correctly (although I have not loooked it up: the ICAO website is fogbound at present and my copy of Beaumont and Fletcher has been hijacked*), the Chicago Convention permits ICAO member states to set their own validation requirements in respect of licences issued by other member states [see edit below]. If I can look this up later, I shall let you know what I find.

Edit: ICAO still foggy, but the McGill University website is CAVOK, allowing a check on Art 32 of the Convention, under which member states reserve the right not to recognise licences granted to their own nationals by other member states. Art 32 deals with trans-national validation requirements, under which ICAO agrees on minimum validation standards, which can change from time to time.

http://www.iasl.mcgill.ca/airlaw/index.htm

If a State were to cease to recognise a licence which it had formerly recognised, arguments might concievably arise based on the public law concept of legitimate expectation, but here we are getting into the realm of specific individual circumstances, in respect of which a discussion forum cannot provide a substitute for individual advice.

* Beaumont and who? See Heliport's message on the next page: it appears that my brain has also been hijacked.

[TonyR]

The whole system is nuts.

I have an Irish, a UK and an FAA licence.

The Irish WONT accept my JAA UK sign off and UK medical to keep my Irish licence valid. (the Irish licence allows me to fly skydivers) They want more money from me.

The UK WILL accept the Irish JAA medical so I go to a doctor in Dublin who gives me a JAA and FAA medical at the same time.

BUT I was in Canada last year and went to Transport Canada to get a licence, they would not accept the fact that I had a UK licence and an Irish JAA medical (I did not bring my Irish licence as I did not have an IAA sign off at the time)

My FAA licence is a "proper one", not based on my UK one and they accepted that, but my FAA medical was about 2 weeks to run until it became class "3" and I was staying 4 weeks so they insisted I get my FAA medical renewed to at least class "2".

Their reason they gave was that my FAA medical was issued as a class "1", I usually just let it run for the year so it becomes a class "2".

They would not accept the class "3" for the issue of a temporary licence.

I would think that flying an "N" on "full" FAA licence even with a class "3" would be ok anywhere.

The IAA have also gone mad with the UK microlight licence, insisting that all pilots have at least a JAA class 2 if flying in Ireland.

JAA, WHAT JAA???

Tony

[Flyboy-F33]

This is just the kind of Bo**cks that makes me want to pack the whole thing in.....!:yuk:

[Heliport]

FNG

Beaumont and Fletcher? :confused:
Weren't they Elizabethan dramatists?
Do you mean Shawcross & Beaumont by any chance?

Look forward to reading the results of your research. It's an important issue with more and more Brits obtaining FAA PPLs.


Heliport

[FNG]

:O :O :O :8 :8 :8

A hit, Sir! A palpable hit! Verily, my wit is out this day.

PS: my only excuse is that Beaumont and Fletcher are rather more amusing to read than are Shawcross and Beaumont. As for research results, check the edit in my previous post, above.

[Flyin'Dutch']

I don't know how much of these things are based on facts and how much on rumour. As I said in reply to B777's post I can not find the AIC he quotes but that may be 'cause I did not look in the right place.

However it is my believe (so may be wrong) that with the advent of EASA things will get better, we can see that already in the maintenance and certification bits (scrapping Star Annuals and Notice 75)

If there are only 2 players (FAA and EASA) they will have to streamline the two systems so less space for esoteric measures and as you can see with the technical bits I suspect that things will become more aligned with the FAA way of looking at these matters.

FD

[Bluebeard777]

Dutch, the IAA AIC I referred to is AIC 11/04 "Acceptance of Flight Crew Licences", which seems to have an effective date of 10/6/04. It is written in a less-than-clear manner and does not specifically refer to FAA licences as such. It appears the only form of medical certificate acceptable henceforth for Irish flying of any sort (aircraft, microlights, balloons, gliders etc) is an "ICAO Annex 1 or JAR-FCL Class 1 or Class 2" medical certificate. The AIC appears to apply to aircraft of any registry.

[Flyin'Dutch']

B777,

Thanks for that.

The reason I can not find it because the IAA website on which I found the AICs was last updated on the 18th of March.

Do you have a link to that particular AIC.

I will make some enquiries from this end.

FD

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

englishal and TonyR,

Just a small point of clarification. An FAA Class 1 Medical is always a Class 1 Medical. It remains a Class 1 Medical for up to 3 years. At that point, it is no longer valid. There is no such thing as "lapsing into" or "becoming" a Class 2 or Class 3 Medical.

What happens, after 6 months is the Class 1 Medical is only allowed to exercise the privileges of the Class 2 Medical, after a year is only allowed to exercise the privileges of a Class 3 Medical and after 3 years is only allowed to fly MS FS2k4, but at no time does it become another "Class" of Medical.

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[englishal]

Thanks Richard,

So it means that if these rumours are true, a class 2, valid for 3 years if under 40 will suffice.

EA

[Wot No Engines]

Advice from down under is that although my medical from here is valid for move than 2 years, I can only use it during the 1st 2 years of validity in Europe.

[Bluebeard777]

TonyR,
Re-reading your post, it sounds like Transport Canada is afflicted with the same disease that has now arrived at the IAA. Canada does not recognise the FAA Class 3 medical? I flew in Canada a couple of years ago with FAA private + FAA Class 3 medical and no-one queried the status of the medical. Anyone know when this change occurred?

[Flyin'Dutch']

Right,

As promised I emailed my AME contacts in the FAA Medical department and apparently this issue with the medicals centers around people holding medicals based on a special issuance.

Special issuances are medicals granted to people with medical conditions which normally disqualify them for holding a medical but who based on an individual appraisal of their case have been granted a medical.

An example would be somebody who has had a heartattack and since has made a good recovery and is deemed, by the FAA to be fit for flying duties.

FD

[IO540]

FD

This sounds like no big deal because the CAA can do the same; they can issue a JAR PPL with a medical qualification which effectively (perhaps literally?) prevents the holder going abroad.

This doesn't appear to get us any closer as to why the CAA and others have (the Pprune rumour says) said they won't accept FAA Class 3.

Have the people whose Class 3 has reportedly been refused had certain medical problems not acceptable to the CAA, and not mentioned here?

[Heliport]

This sounds like no big deal because the CAA can do the sameIt's 'no big deal' provided you're not the one hoping the CAA will take the same approach as the FAA.
It could be a very big deal indeed if you're the one hoping they will.

It's hardly beyond the realms of possibility that the CAA might decide to prohibit people from flying in UK airspace even though the FAA have decided they can fly perfectly safely in American airspace.
I know which Authority I'd prefer to have deciding my fate.

[Bluebeard777]

IO540, for what it's worth I was told the IAA's problem with the FAA Class 3 medical was that the content of the medical examination was considered inadequate, and not in accordance with ICAO standards. Whether this is justified and/or legally correct, I do not know.

It had nothing to do with the medical condition of the examinees.

[411A]

From all this discussion, it should be perfectly clear to all that the FAA is far and away the best, easiest, cheapest, and most straightforward aviation authority on the face of the planet.

And, surprise surprise, the USA also has the most pilots of any country as well, with the least burdemsome regulations, and licensing procedures.

And yet, a few countries look down their collective noses at the FAA certificate, somehow thinking it inferior.
Especially the ATPL.
Well, for these, I would like to strap their backside into an aircraft and watch 'em perform as required, with an FAA inspector.

Five will get you ten....they would fail.:uhoh:

[S-Works]

411A, Couldn't agree with you more! For those thinking the FAA is an "easy ride" sign up for a CPL or an ATPL and then tell us it was easy!

I found the exams more logical and the material better presented as I used the Jeppesen CPL/IR and ATP manuals and the online exams but the flight tests and worse the verbal exams are positivly grueling. FAA also require a flight test at both CPL and ATP level.

There is far too much crap spread around that that the JAR route is better because the exams and flying are "harder". I guess mostly from wannabees having to justify to the world why they got themselves 50 grand in debt in a market with no jobs!!!!!

[Flyin'Dutch']

B777,

I have been subjected to many medicals under a variety of systems but would fail to see any major difference between the contents of a standard medical JAR2 vs FAA Class 3.

Biggest difference is the need for an ECG for the JAR one.

The big difference between the way JAR and FAA look at medical fitness is that the latter one, based on their vast experience, look at people that have certain medical conditions and see if they can be safely certified fit.

The different views that both systems have are the result of different cultural, political and legal backgrounds on which the systems are founded, that does not make one 'better' than the other just different.

FD

[Wide-Body]

Hey Bose X

Go easy on the wannabees the only reason they end up 50 grand in debt is because they have to. You are not going to get a mainstream job in the UK without a JAR licence.

I agree that no one should attack the US system. It is fantastically straight forward. The flight examiners I flew with were top notch. They were highly skilled and demanded high levels of handling. The written exams were less obtuse than JAA but were also easier. Possibly because there is so much easily accessible notes.

Anyone who has passed a JAR ground exams will have known how to work bloody hard.

411A. Try to persuade the European Authorities to become as enlightened about aviation as the Americans. Whilst your at it can you get me a P51 for Christmas ;)

At the end of they day what I can not understand, in the light of an ICAO standard, why ALL compliant licences are not fully transferable.

Regards


Wide

[englishal]

I was told the IAA's problem with the FAA Class 3 medical was that the content of the medical examination was considered inadequate, and not in accordance with ICAO standards
This would be rich, if it were to come from the CAA, especially as the NPPL medical (and licence) has NOTHING to do with ICAO. Incidentally the JAR class 2 exceeds ICAO spec, by the CAAs own admission.

I fail to see how someone can not obtain a JAR Cl2, then go and get an NPPL sign off an fly EXACTLY the same aircraft, from exactly the same airfield, with EXACTLY the same number of pax, in EXACTLY the same flight conditions. The ECG is an expensive irrelevance, my mates dad had an ECG, due to chest pain, which proved absolutely normal. Next day he died from a massive heart attack (while watching Formula 1.....which is the reason we suspect he popped his cloggs, Schumacher was in the lead again).......

The European aviation system sometimes reminds me of the film Brazil:8

EA
(in a bad mood, becasue someone has just ripped me off for over a grand on eBay):mad: