Flying Pay - to go????

[Bigtop]

:*
Anyone heard any of the rumblings proposed for the new structure of SSP?
Alledgedly the three years grace before yr flying pay (or any specialist pay to that matter s/m etc) takes a dip is set to go.
That means as soon as you leave the cockpit SSP(F) will cease - still trying to seek clarification on 'flying related' desk/staff jobs and whether this rumour is true at all.
Will be interesting to see how the bean counters hailing this as a major cost saving will emeloriate this with the bonuses that are being shelled out concurrently!!
:(

[Bill O'Average]

All for it. If you aint in a flying job, why get the perks?

[Stan Bydike]

Bill,

Because you are aircrew and employed to fly. If the system puts you on a ground tour why should you be penalised. :*

[jingly]

would this mean you could refuse a ground tour because it would mean a cut in pay? count me in, i cant think of anything worse than becoming a blunty.

[AdLib]

jingly,

an example of blunty logic:

flying pay is an allowance
flying pay is not pay (remember all that fuss about flying pay and pensions a while ago?)
therefore ground tour results in loss of an allowance, not pay
therefore OK

an example of aircrew logic:

where's my f*****g money you blunt b*****d

neither of which do much good!

p.s. I can think of one thing worse than becoming a blunty, being in Basrah! ... take care.

[Mad_Mark]

If you aint in a flying job, why get the perks?

I think you'll find that the actual perks for being aircrew IS the flying.

The time old argument given to aircrew as to why different branches/trades get different rates of flying pay, on the same aircraft, is that it is not danger money but a retention incentive. Some trades need more incentive to stay in than others (e.g. pilots can get much better pay flying civilian self-loading freight, with far better working conditions). This shows that even those at the top realise that flying pay is not a 'perk'.

By posting aircrew to ground tours, under the new scheme (if it is indeed more than mere rumour) you will be removing both the perks and incentive to stay. Just watch the flood gates open!

MadMark!!! :mad:

[allan907]

Just a thought........

Have 2 methods of entry. Let's say we call them Airmen Aircrew and Officers.

Airmen Aircrew get paid lots of dough for being Drivers, Aeroplane but, recognising that it's basically a young blokes thing (at least the pointy end) or an old knackered blokes thing (truckies aka airline pilots) you get to leave early and the airlines get a steady flow of recruits eager to get on the treadmill of bus driving with high pay (eventually).

Officers, recognising that they are 'leaders' opt for a full career which means secondary duties, ground tours etc etc etc. And while they fly, sometimes, they also get a go at the big dough and kudos of higher rank. They also get paid as regular officers, except when they are in a flying appointment when they get 'flying pay'.

Airmen Aircrew who realise that they don't want to be Drivers, Aeroplane all their life and wish to make some kind of contribution to their company (The RAF) can, IF they have the 'right stuff', apply for and be selected to become officers.

Problem solved at a stroke. The boys can enjoy playing with their shiny kit and those with ability can run the company.

:ok:

[Roghead]

A907..Were you really an RAF Admin Officer? Your thoughts are far too logical and good and would not be accepted by the airships running the firm when I was in. I suspect the same applies today.
During your period (and mine just about) there were several reasonable ideas which would keep aircrew flying at the expense of a career but couldn't (wouldn't) cater for non officer pilots and navs. Mind you we did have a few more cockpits to fill!!
Still, an excellent idea, and you deserve a CDM and bar.

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[VP959]

Why not adopt the same allowance system as the civvy FTO/FTEs get (or used to when I was doing it)? The deal was £8.60 per hour or part of hour flown (used to make for a lot of 2hr 05min sorties as I recall............).

Personally I can't see why we (I currently have aircrew in my team) have to fork out for a "flying allowance" when they are sitting behind a desk.

Of course, we could always get rid of the daft system that effectively "charges" budget holders for the bods in their teams, in which case I couldn't give a t*ss about flying pay........... :-)>

[allan907]

Roghead ..... Yes I was a real Admin Officer and, like lots of Admin Officers, really wanted to be aircrew. That's why some of us had an empathy with the pointy end and were accepted (at least I think we were!). Once I was out I joined a company that said that they would like to pay to teach me to fly for them. Needless to say I snatched their hand off and, having done more hours in the Oz outback fetching, delivering and post maintenance test flying than I care to think about, I can genuinely see both sides of the argument.

Oh.. and by the way, while I was in MOD 87-90 I wrote the rehash of the Airmen Aircrew flying pay structure. Didn't go down too well but I was being directed by very senior officer pilots!!

[Roghead]

A907. good on you mate,I was also lucky enough to find an employer who paid for me to pilot their planes- didn't pay flying pay however just a good enough salary (thanks Warton).However back to the thread, young guys and gals join the RAF as aircrew, to fly and part of the deal is that they receive flying pay.It's bad enough that the "extra" is not taken into consideration with regard pensions and totally iniquitous that it should be dispensed with altogether.

:( :(

[BackfromIraq]

One problem with taking flying pay off you sharp pointy aggressive types that I can see is that you then penalise the guys who are ear-marked for greatness, so they do their best not to get a blunt tour and we get some snivelling brown nosing career ****** as CAS.

Even the blunties want someone with credibility rather than some guy who decided early on that he'd rather be poor and have a knighthood.

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Err....isn't there a bit of an echo in here?

We did this rumour not 3 weeks ago...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=127891

I seem to remember that one was kicked off by an article in the Torygraph suggesting FP would be removed for those on ground tours.

However, I also remember that the thing peetered out as soon as CAS very unusually put out a categorical denial that the matter was being discussed.

D4R

[allan907]

If CAS categorically denies the rumour then it must be true:E

And that's one of the reasons why this ex blunty got out 'cos I could see some of the thrusting wannabe CASs scrambling over the knives in the back of their mates and I wasn't impressed with the quality. Eleven years later .....was I right, or was I right:sad:

[CrabInCab]

Adlib,

Example of aircrew logic:

Thanks for confirming it is an allowance.
Now stop taxing me on it as it isn't pay.

:)

[Vage Rot]

Crab old son!, Here here!

Personally, if they can take my money away, I can walk out the door with 30 days notice!

Also, I can sue the Ba5t4rds for breaking the contract of employment, create havoc with the Sun, local MP and generally not work all that hard, take sports afternoons and follow their example of which QRs I need to follow and which I choose to ignore (I seem to remember the system, for years, ignoring the QR about Club Class Air travel for trips over 2.5 hours.)

Anyway - the wife's just got a new sales job and she earns more than this knackered old PAS aircrew type now so sod em all!

Surprised the Sun hasn't picked this one up - "Our Brave Boys (and Girls) to return home to dole/pay cut" etc, etc etc.

[mbga9pgf]

Dont worry, just been confirmed that the article from whence this issue was raised was untrue.

[PURPLE-XD]

Whilst the article that this is based on may not be true - I wouldn't bet against there being a review of fg pay (as part of a wider review of allowances). I was talking to a submariner recently about his specialist pay. Apparently the system works so that if he is on a boat (or a directly linked job such as being a trapper or being emplyed in a role that specifically requires his sub experience) then he gets his full sub pay, if he comes off a boat or linked job then after a set period (a year I think he said) then he goes down to 75% of the full pay. If he is not employed in an appropriate job he then loses all the pay after 6 years. At any point he can re-start the clock if he is posted back to a sub linked job.

Whilst I am second guessing the higher paid help, I would have thought that a similar system for fg pay would seem acceptable to some, and those to whom it wasn't - well the PVR rate would hopefully help us a long to our target manning figures (whatever they may be).
:(

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Purple-XD

As I understand things, the system you speak of has already been in place in the RAF for a number of years! Jobs are classified as "flying related" or "non-flying related". The flying related jobs have no restriction on flying pay, but if you are in a non-flying related job then I think flying pay drops to 75% after 3 years (if memory serves right).

The thing is that when the system was introduced it was decided that the vast majority of ground tours were flying related - sims, HQ tours, OEU jobs etc.

I could see that as part of the many current "working strands" being looked at, a rebalancing of what is classified as flying and non-flying related might happen.

The AFPRB Report 2005 is scheduled to contain a major review/overhaul of flying pay.

D4R

[Big Cat Handler]

The article may not have been true, but that doesn't matter - it has achieved its purpose of highlighting an important issue... ;)

[Nignog]

Big Cat Handler

And your point is exactly?

[propulike]

I would assume (his) point is that (he) can't understand why people are concerned at the possibility of taking a large pay cut whilst at the same time being sent to a job they don't want to do.

I would also assume that (he) like the other posters on this thread who think it is a good idea aren't at threat from the cost-cutters this time.

[RobinXe]

Or maybe he was just taking the piss out of Piers Morgan.......is a knowledge of current affairs only required to blag your way through OASC?

[propulike]

Ah. Yes. Well.......

I knew that of course.

I was just, umm,

Oh bu&&er. :oh:

Principal of the reply still stands. :rolleyes:

[sex it up]

If your extra pay is taken away whether it is an allowance or retentive pay, where are you all going to go, McDs only have limited numbers per intake.

I'm not too convinced that 'Virgin' is gagging for ex aircrew.

Perhaps a blunty tour would let you smell the coffee and see what stresses the rest of the team are under rather than bleating about how much cash you deserve.

Some of you seem to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

SIU,
I guess from your posts around the threads that you have come unstuck during the selection process:rolleyes:

Envy, whilst a common British trait, is no way to live your life:rolleyes:

Get over it, move on and accept where you are on life's ladder........as by the sound of it you aint' going much further:E

all spelling mistakes are"df"alcohol induced

[Blacksheep]

Whatever happened to the 'good old days' - when pilots on ground tours could keep their flying pay by trucking Air Cadets round the circuit in Chipmunks for a few hours every summer?

Sounds like the World's Best Flying Club isn't so much of a club anymore, eh? ... ;)

[sex it up]

I'm just trying yo sex things up with extreme views, although there is a valid core to many of the threads. You may be surprised that I was never interested in becoming aircrew despite testing positive at OASC, I guess it isn't everyones dream (Well not in my twisted dreams anyway).

I think the flying pay issue will be subsumed into the general review that I understand is going on into pay scales a'la pay 2000 in the ground trades. I have heard rumours of every branch making cases for additional allowances along the lines of:

Engineers - Responsibility for airworthiness.
Adminers - Responsibility for finance.
Suppliers - Responsibility for logistics.

I'm sure everyone could come up with reasons why they deserve more cash but the fact remains that aircrew get it and everyone else wants it.

The route to getting it is open to anyone with the skills and ability to get through selection and the lengthy training process so thre is actually little room for bleating. Despite my previous post.

[soddim]

The aircrew pay and retention issues need to be addressed as a whole. For example, why train so many people to operate so few aircraft? Get this right and retain them longer and the savings on training are significant.

On the issue of aircrew flying pay, why have such a system at all? Pay the aircrew a basic rate that is competitive and make the whole salary pensionable.

Retention could be improved by a bonding system requiring a number of years service to justify the initial training costs or a hefty financial penalty for early leavers. It is reasonable to expect the taxpayer to get a fair return on his investment and early leavers should pay back rather than taxpayers money being paid out in retention bonuses.

Aircrew who are selected for executive ground jobs should be offered a salary for the job that motivates them to leave the cockpit they love - if that means a rank to go with it, then give it to them - by definition they will need the rank to do the job. If the job is non-executive and needs aircrew expertise, first try to fill it at a ground level salary with those who can for various reasons no longer fly - if none are available then - and only then - fill it with current aircrew but leave their salary intact. At the earliest opportunity, replace them with the non-flier at ground salary rate.

No commercial organisation could afford the training and retention costs the taxpayer pays the military. It is time the MOD revised their profligate ways.

[bay17-20]

Soddim

Outstanding post.

Sensible, clear, fair system, lets hope its taken up!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Soddim,
Nice thought but it will never happen...far to sensible:ok:

The only way ahead is via the PA spine initiative which removes flying pay but adds it to the basic pay. Just happened o me so my basic pay now is my total pay ........and is all pensionable...hooray:ok:

SIU........."You may be surprised that I was never interested in becoming aircrew despite testing positive at OASC, I guess it isn't everyones dream (Well not in my twisted dreams anyway)."..........yeah really :rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[soddim]

ABIW,

Don't know what I was thinking of ...... never been accused of being sensible before.

Oh well, we can but dream that one day the public purse will be well managed.

[Biggus]

Sex it up - ..."You may be surprised that I was never interested in becoming aircrew despite testing positive at OASC, I guess it isn't everyones dream (Well not in my twisted dreams anyway)."

One is tempted to ask why, given what you say above, you were tested at OASC, apparently wasting peoples time and money, and taking up a slot somebody else more "interested" could have had?

[Yeller_Gait]

Soddim,

Agree with your post, however, after removing the need for aircrew instructors, because all new aircrew will now serve for 30 years or more, hence no need to train new aircrew, what are all "those that can't" .... going to do???

[me01jal]

SIU,

You refer to "testing positive" to aircrew. Is is a disease?

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Doesn't everyone who attends OASC sit the basic aircrew aptitude test? After all, it's just a chunk of computer time. Someone in the know please correct if this is not the case.

SBG

[WorkingHard]

Whingeing Aircrew - it is you that needs to get a life. The grass is NOT always greener in civvy life as many of you will no doubt find out. If you want a job flying as truckies for the holiday trade then pick your airline carefully because they are not all clamouring for ex RAF aircrew. You will also find that you may have a lot more work and a lot more hours and your pension is far far different to what you are entitled now, whether or not FP is included. BTW I am not ex aircrew but just offering a viewpoint that may warn you of disappointment yet to come. Go to Rumours thread and seek opinions on pay and allowances from the civvy drivers if you need further confirmation.

[soddim]

Good question, Yeller_Gait, they could not leave without repaying their training bond so they would just have to learn to do it well and join the rest of the front line in the Falklands, Iraq and wherever else our PM commits us to serve. Some, of course, would still teach but by then it will be a civilian contract anyway so they might have to do it in a blue suit and measure up to their civilian counterparts who are fired if they fall short.

[The Gorilla]

Actually WorkingHard the grass is a lot greener where I am now.
I am working less hours for more money per hour, drawing my RAF Pension and am in an excellent 2nd pension scheme.

There are lots of ex RAF folk in my pastures a new and no one regrets the switch!

BUT then I have turned my back on aviation!!

:ok:

[A D ENUFF]

GET RID OF FLYING PAY ............... Ah the old chestnut raises it's head once more. By all means get rid of it.................if you want to get rid of all of your experienced pilots.
How many times have we seen this one before ? Pay us considerably less than our civvy counterparts then people will surely leave to go and join the side where the grass is not necessarily greener .....but definitely richer. No problems as far as putting bums on seats is concerned though because there will always be people who want to fly military aircraft. But you can bet your bottom dollar they will only fly long enough to achieve the necessary amount of hours required to get a civvy ticket. Then they'll be gone. Its about time people realised that loyalty to the military is dying fast and we could talk about why until the cows come home,hell freezes over etc etc etc. Its a sad fact but people today are motivated by only one thing................................MONEY................ hence

Fiancial incentives, Retention bonuses etc ..........


Any spolling mistukes are due to the fact i aint got O level English !!

[brit bus driver]

Get rid of flying pay?......absolutely, says I!

No flying pay = aircrew leave in droves = no-one to fly the aircraft = no snags to fix. Cue engineers leaving in droves to pastures new, as now no work to do (except for mandatory sessions in front of Sky footie in crewroom ;) ).

Now far fewer people left to administer; cue blunties leaving in droves; McDonalds profit margins soar as now a wealth of potential employees to choose from (although navigators have by now secured the sought-after management positions).

The only people left are the vicars and the plods; cue huge reduction in defence budget; more spending on schools, hospitals etc, which gets our Tone another term in office. everyone wins!

Get rid of flying pay.....:hmm:

All mistakes are definitely induced by trying to work out just how much I've earned this year for my tax return.:ok:

[WorkingHard]

Gorrilla - good luck, you have clearly made the right choice as many do, but I am sure you cant really argue with the gist of what I was saying. Many factors affect progression in civvy life and not all are able to make the change. There are some attitudes in service life unacceptable in civvy street.

[The Gorilla]

WorkingHard

I do agree with most of what you say. Too many times I have heard the Muppets who are a sad excuse for desk officers, mutter to disgruntled NCA "The grass isn't greener out there, you know you are lucky to have a job" Yadee Yadee Yadaa!!

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There are some attitudes in service life unacceptable in civvy street.
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You are absolutely right!!



:ok:

[Captain Sand Dune]

All military aircrew here in Oz were given a substantial pay RISE some years ago. Smartest thing they ever did. Ex RAAF/RAN/AAAVn pilots now experience a significant pay DROP if they join QANTAS as a S/O or a regional airline - therefore less resignations.

[BEagle]

With less than 5 years to go, I couldn't transfer to PA spine. Nothing was brought in to compensate, no clear message was forthcoming about the effects on my pension were I to PVR in the future....would I have to wait until 60 to get anything? Binnsworth didn't have any ideas - but a desko said (unofficially) "Don't trust the buggers an inch. If I could PVR, I certainly would!" So I did - and I don't think that I'm missing much!

[Trumpet_trousers]

Quote:

Too many times I have heard the Muppets who are a sad excuse for desk officers, mutter to disgruntled NCA "The grass isn't greener out there, you know you are lucky to have a job"

Couldn't agree more Gorilla....what these 'career orientated' desk officers, and many of their ilk above and below them fail to comprehend is that LOYALTY is a 2-way street.........how often do you see loyalty being displayed backwards down the command chain?........no, thought not, yet the b*astards still expect you to give 18/12 months notice, when they would quite willingly drop you tomorrow.....:mad: :mad: :mad