Pilot and Engineer??

[TonyR]

Prompted by J F's, piece in June, Flyer. (Mods and Maintenance)

How many of you ever bother to have a really good look at the aircraft you fly?

I am involved in a couple of groups and a flying club and I rarely see any pilots getting involved in maintenance (or even cleaning the aircraft)

If some of you were in an "out of the way" airstrip, could you even take out a "plug" or remove a wheel to get a flat fixed.

Most old pilots will carry a "get me home" tool kit. but most "modern" drivers would just stand beside the aircraft with a blank look.

When you own an aircraft, unless you have too much money, the only way to keep costs down is to know your a/c and to do as much work as is permitted under the LAMS.


You will become a better pilot when you know how things work and you will do much less damage when you understand the systems.

Tony

[A and C]

Very few people these days want to get there hands dirty and most kids think that "work" is all about sitting in front of a computor screen.

Its not a big shock to me that most of them could not change a plug.

On the whole maintenance is best left to greasy working class types who cant do anything better.


"don't force it , use a bigger hammer !"

[englishal]

I think its more of a case of "why bother". As pilots we're not permitted to carry out any real work on the aircraft, so whats the point.

If I were allowed, I'd be happy to carry out all maintenance on an aircraft I owned, none of it is rocket science, and with the right tools and manuals, most jobs can be fairly easily done. I'd leave the big jobs to the professionals, just becasue they do it all the time, and can often do it a lot faster. (like changing a clutch on a car, although its fairly straight forward, and I've done it in the past, I'd rather pay someone to do it now, who has all the right tools / facilities etc.).

EA

[mad_jock]

To be honest I can see it as one of the plus points of running a permit aircraft. I enjoy fannying around with mechanical things. Electrics you can stick where the sun don't shine.

MJ

[Engineer]

A and C please use the right terminology in front of pilots you know how worried they get.

It is called percussion adjustment and if that does not work then get a bigger hammer mate :D

[TonyR]

Have a good look here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP520.pdf), page 30 will tell you some of the "jobs" you can do

Tony

[Engineer]

Pilots fly aeroplanes Engineers fix them never should the twain meet

[TonyR]

So the Engineer says "keep your nose out of that" and the pilot dosent really care.

Try telling that to a MAF pilot, or to those of us who have flown in more remote areas.

Tony

[smarthawke]

Strange but true but there's article Part I of II on this very subject in this month's splendid Today's Pilot magazine.

And I totally agree with you, A&C - the worrying grubby types I reckon are the old ones with wood and fabric on their license......

[IO540]

TonyR

Which type of CofA does the aircraft need to be on for this to apply? :O

[TonyR]

I am talking about "private owners" and "private cat" as far as working on the a/c.

Still, that should not stop the average "club" pilot from getting to know the a/c.

Tony

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have to say, reading JF's writing in Flyer (or on my rare but happy opportunities to listen to him in person) usually leaves me with one of two standard reactions:-

(1) I agree completely, or
(2) Bu99er me, that's interesting, I wish I knew that before.

In this case my reaction to that article was (1).


I get privately and professionally irritated by two classes of people in my profession. The first is pilots who refuse to take an active interest in the machinery that they are operating, the second is engineers who consider engineering their sole territory and refuse either to take an interest in flying, or to talk to aircrew about the engineering issues.

(Actually there's a third, "Engineers" who think that because they've been given a 6 month training course, just completed a degree, or played in their garage a bit and somebody's given them a fancy job title, it puts them on a par with somebody who has done a 5 year apprenticeship or has completed the 8+ year route to Chartered or Incorporated Engineer - but that's irrelevant to the particular discussion.)

Me? I'm both, and don't think that I could do either job fully competently if I didn't have a reasonable grasp of the other.

Yes it does take time, effort, and a certain amount of bloodymindedness. But doesn't pursuing any aerospace career successfully.

G

[locksmith]

I used to own a PFA aircraft and did all my own work.

At the moment I am flying a rented PA28, I was collecting one of the school's aircraft from the hanger the other day and it was like the "secret service". The engineers, won't talk about their work, I ask about various things that I noticed wrong with the a/c on previous flights, and was told "we know all about that" (they did not).

I now have lost confidence in this facility as I feel they just "bull****" the pilots.

I will be buying again soon and I don't think I will be going there.

Ken

[FunctionedSatis]

Genghis,

I agree with you totaly, i read that said article and fully agreed that pilots should take more intrest in the machinery they fly! And we as engineers more intrest in the flying of them!

I work on the heavy's as an engineer and i found a better appreciation of how pilots operate the a/c makes my job easier when fault finding is required.

I really would like to work on GA a/c but my licence is a JAR one and not may cessnas at 5700Kgs:D! EASA my be changing that thou:cool:.

Cheers,

Stu.

[BoeingMEL]

You started a great thread here Tony ....... couldn't agree more with your suggestion! Having spent some years ferrying everything from widebodies to 'copters.... I found out many times that a decent working knowledge of your aircraft can be indispensable.... and might even save your life. Don't be negative guys 'n girls..... open the manuals and then open your minds. As for you A&C with your class snobbery...you should bl**dywell know better! bm ps my emergency ferry toolkit weighted almost 12kg and it was priceless on 8 or 10 occasions.... try getting stuck in Goose Bay, Alexandria, Bombay, Bali, Sola, Sob Story or Little Rock on Christmas Day!

[LDG_GEAR _MONITOR]

functioned - why not do a BCAR licence then to work on GA ? yes i know you carnt do BCAR for heavys but you can on light !

i know - i went the other way from cessnas to boeings but still do the light ones !

[TonyR]

I am supprised at the negetive reaction to this thread, and to the "Us & Them" view.

I0540, OK so the average PPL is limited to what he can do on a hired a/c, but some PPLs may want to spread their wings and visit far away fields and when your in the middle of the Sudan or somewhere, you dont worry too much about the type of C of A.

I also know a young pilot who got got a flat wheel on a Scotish island, he called a maintenance outfit and the bill was £1,545 inc VAT.

His a/c was on private cat and he did not even need a new tyre, but I suppose, if you know nothing about the machine and have pots of money why worry.

Tony

[Engineer]

TonyR

Guy should have looked at the link you posted would have seen he can do the same minor jobs as on his car Change battery, tyres, interior fittings, a little body work repair and play with the radio (so long as it is not coupled to the GPS if fitted)
:D

At that sort of money need to get back to ground engineering :ok:

[shortstripper]

Try building an aeroplane or two through the PFA or BMAA schemes and you do kinda learn a thing or two about maintainance issues.

In my case I started rebuilding trial bike engines as a kid, then moved on to cars and tractors and worked as an "unqualified" agricultural engineer for a couple of years. I know my way around engines and latterly airframes ... shame I can't loose the habit of using baler twine at every opportunity though :p

I can't believe anybody interested in aircraft, cars, bikes or whatever doesn't take some interest in how they work :confused:

SS

[IO540]

Tony R

I agree; in fact I do long flights, 700nm+ and I carry various spares like a vac pump, plugs etc. These were bought from the usual (proper) U.S. mail order places like Aircraft Spruce, without an 8130-3 but as you say who cares when it is an emergency.

I have no problem with paying for servicing etc (50hr check at ~£500) and I do try to talk to engineers about various things. However it is a fact that most engineers I know don't fly for themselves because they have little money, or have no interest in flying, or both. The exceptions are notable and I would always prefer those to service my plane (which is on a Transport CofA so I am fairly well stuffed on DIY).

What I don't like is when a LAME chews up half the screws with a power screwdriver and I have to buy a screw kit from the USA for $50 to replace them. I feel like doing a LAME training course :O

Incidentally I don't like the way most UK flying mags waffle generally about maintenance without specifying what the owner can actually do. They seem to assume the plane is either on a Permit or a Private CofA. I suppose anybody who is an owner would know the difference but perhaps not??

As regards someone's comment that the engineer said "yes I know about that defect" the overwhelming chance is that he does know about it, unofficially, but has been explicitly told by the owner (usually a school) to not spend money on it. Training planes in particular tend to be maintained on a strictly "need to fix" basis and the workshops are well used to working that way. Fixing a plane to a "perfect" standard costs a whole lot more money, and if one applied that policy to avionics it would get 10x worse.

[FNG]

Tony, you say:-

"I also know a young pilot who got got a flat wheel on a Scotish island....called a maintenance outfit and the bill was £1,545 inc VAT."

hmmm, sounds familiar. What colour was this person's headset?


On the more serious side, I do wish that I had a more practical knowledge of the machinery, but I am very unhandy with spanners and such, as my vain attempts to tinker with old cars have convinced me. I found the technical exam for the PPL moderately interesting.

[A and C]

Thanks for taking the bait mate .......... I was sure I would catch someone !.

SMARTHAWKE.

Are there aircraft made out of some thing other than wood ?.

[FunctionedSatis]

LDG_GEAR

I could do but if im going to hit the books it would be my B2 to B1 conversion first.

Iam hoping my B2 Avio license will be valid for all weights when EASA comes in, thats the rumours at present.

I0540,

Such a shame you have a tarred view of LAME's hope not all GA pilots think like that, allthough i have much to learn maybe, im quite a young inexperienced LAME as yet!

Stu.

[FNG]

Don't worry Stu, IO540's role on this forum is to be Eeyore.

(My role is to be Mr Toad. Poop, pooooop!)

[FunctionedSatis]

:D

Keep it up mr toad!!

[TonyR]

FGN,

No he was wearing Green Headsets.

He did take some advice from a Lawyer and he sent them £700 in settlement of the invoice. the company banked the cheque and as far as I know did not pursue him for the balance. (to date that is)

Still a tube cost about £25 and I could normally have the job done in well under an hour, the organisation had a 30 minute flight in a PA28 there and back so I suppose they were covered with £700.

But if you are prepared, the cost would be well less than £100 as long as there was no other damage.

Tony