Piers Morgan fired

[Basil]

. . and I would consider a charge of treason.

If I were in his position I'd be running scared that the parents of anyone killed as a result of publication of inflamatory fake photographs may consider taking direct action :*

[Compass Call]

He is SCUM, and something I regularly scrape of the soles of my shoes, s :mad: :mad: t. He should have been drowned at birth.

CC

[The Monk]

I dont think he will have a problem getting another job. He's a celebrity, regardless of why. That is afterall the nature of our 'culture' now. Just look at that fat cow Jade from big brother. How the fcuk can she earn more than me?? He'll be doing the circuit for years, earning big bucks. What has our country come to?

Just give me five minutes of 'debriefing' time with him to educate him of the errors of his ways.

I recommend he pops up to the North West and does the book signing scam.

[Jackonicko]

It's extremely hard not to celebrate the firing of Mr Morgan (especially for me, since under Captain Bob, the Mirror Group bounced a cheque and never redressed their failure to pay me!). When the messenger is as odious and smug as Piers, I'm all for shooting him, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that that is exactly what we are doing.

The Mirror published faked photographs (perhaps knowingly, perhaps without taking sensible precautions to ascertain their veracity) and should be condemned and even punished for doing so. At the same time, it must be recognised that the paper did so to illustrate a story which was based on a real issue.

One can only hope that this sideshow does not come to obscure the underlying story, as the Gilligan/Kelly/BBC/Hutton story came to obscure the fundamental underlying issue (that the Government took the country to war justifying its action on a premise which it knew, or should have known, to be false).

In this case, it is known that six Iraqis have died in British custody, and it must be acknowledged that the ICRC failed to draw a clear distinction between the US and UK when condemning the brutality exhibited by some elements within the coalition forces in Iraq. There is, therefore, a real concern that UK forces may be engaging in exactly the kind of behaviour which the staged photos purported to show.

[Engineer]

Agreed J the old adage where there is smoke there is fire is still true and whether fake or not it at least these pictures highlighted the abuse that maybe going on.

[Mooney12]

Good to see a tabloid getting some of their own medicine. Taking on the British Army with pictures of unknown origin was never a clever idea though. There was only ever going to be one winner.

[Engineer]

Not sure who the winner is here

[unwiseowl]

Even if these pictures had been genuine, Morgan still shouldn't have published them, since they would obviously provoke attacks against our troops. However, I do find it perverse that he and Gilligan have had to resign, whilst Blair and Hoon keep their jobs.

[soddim]

What is sad about this whole sorry story is that it would not have happened at all in the days when this was a decent society. Sure, in war there always were excesses and wanton brutality but we never washed our own dirty linen in international view. Investigative journalism is one thing but when it verges on treason it should be punished accordingly.

One cannot condone the behaviour of a few in this war but they were a few and the majority of our forces did more than any of us deserved and with distinction and honour. One must not fog the issue with cries that the war was unjust - many of our troops felt the same way but they nevertheless did their duty. They deserved the support of the tabloids not the stab in the back.

I sincerely hope that the rag Piers edited is punished by the few decent people left in our society by being left on the shelf.

[Wiley]

What impressed me the most in the whole sorry mess was the incredibly professional hatchet job – (for that’s what it was, in no uncertain terms) – that the Brigadier and the ex-CO of the QLR did on Morgan in their press conference. I was a total pleasure to see two senior officers handle the media so consummately well, making their case step by step so that even the journos could follow it.

I thought their real master stroke was the young Lance Corporal who demonstrated the two versions of the SA80. (And please, don’t let someone tell me that using a young LCpl - “just an average QLR squaddie” – (who handled himself and the media every bit as professionally as his Brigadier), rather than a SNCO or WO wasn’t a carefully considered part of the plan to show the high standard of the average soldier in the regiment).



I’m waiting with bated breath to see what will happen when the identities of the people who staged the fake photographs are revealed. Will the photographer turn out to be a squaddie (who just happened to know an awful lot – too much, in fact – about photography), or will the man behind the camera turn out to be a civilian photographer from the ‘Daily Mirror’?

I’m guessing that the gentlemen concerned will be wanting to be a long way away from any barracks, and will be ‘doing a Maxine Carr’ when they are released from prison, (which I hope will not be for a very long time). I also suspect that they might see at close hand some real ‘stress positions’ in any prison they might ‘attend’ after their trails.

[Jackonicko]

"What is sad about this whole sorry story is that it would not have happened at all in the days when this was a decent society."

Perhaps there was greater confidence that those higher up the chain would behave honestly and honourably, and tackle the problems, rather than try and spin their way out of them?

This supposed 'stab in the back' has come after the war, and at the very time that the ICRC is making unparallelled and uncomfortable criticisms of the behaviour of coalition forces. These may have been 'made up' pictures, but it's not a made up story, and brushing it aside will not wash. The British Army is not the Waffen SS........

"In Its "Report an the Treatment by the Coalition Forces of Prisoners of War and other protected persons in Iraq", the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) drew attention of the Coalition Forces to a number of serious violations of International Humanitarian Law. These violations have been documented and sometimes observed while visiting prisoners of war, civilian internees and other protected persons by the Geneva Conventions in Iraq between March and November 2003.

The main violations were described in the ICRC report:


* Brutality against protected persons upon capture and initial custody, sometimes causing death or serious injury
* Absence of notification of arrest of persons deprived of their liberty to their families rousing distress among persons deprived of their liberty and their families
* Physical or psychological coercion during interrogation to secure information
* Prolonged solitary confinement in cells devoid of daylight
* Excessive and disproportionate use of force against persons deprived of their liberty resulting in death or injury during their period of internment

Serious problems of conduct by the CF affecting persons deprived of their liberty are also presented in the report:

* Seizure and confiscation of private belongings of persons deprived of their liberty
* Exposure of persons deprived of their liberty to dangerous tasks
* Holding persons deprived of their liberty in dangerous places where they are not protected from shelling

According to allegations collected by ICRC delegates during private interviews with persons deprived of their liberty, ill-treatment during capture was frequent. While certain circumstances might require defensive precautions and the use of force on the part of battle group units, the ICRC collected allegations of ill-treatment following capture which took place in Baghdad, Basrah, Ramadi and Tikrit, indicating a consistent pattern with respect to times and places of brutal behavior during arrest. The repetition of such behavior by CF appeared to go beyond the reasonable, legitimate and proportional use of force required to apprehend suspects or restrain persons resisting arrest or capture, and seemed to repeat a usual modus operandi by certain CF battle group units.

According to the allegations collected by the ICRC, ill-treatment during interrogation was not systematic, except with regard to persons arrested in connection with suspected security offences or deemed to have an "intelligence" value. In these cases, persons deprived of their liberty under supervision of the Military Intelligence were at high risk of being subjected to a variety of harsh treatments ranging from insults, threats and humiliations to both physical and psychological coercion, which in some cases was tantamount to torture, in order to force cooperation with their interrogators.

The ICRC was also concerned about the excessive and disproportionate use of force by some detaining authorities against persons deprived of their liberty involved during their internment during periods of unrest or escape attempts that caused death and serious injuries. The use of firearms against persons deprived of their liberty in circumstances where methods without using firearms could have yielded the same result could amount to a serious violation of International Humanitarian Law. The ICRC reviewed a number of incidents of shootings of persons deprived of their liberty with live bullets, which have resulted in deaths or injuries during periods of unrest related to conditions of internment or escape attempts. Investigations initiated by the CF into these incidents concluded that the use of firearms against persons deprived of their liberty was legitimate. However, non-lethal measures could have been used to obtain the same results and quell the demonstrations, or neutralize persons deprived of their liberty trying to escape."

and

resting authorities entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into tins room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property. They arrested suspects, tying their hands in the back with flexi-cuffs, hooding them, and taking them away. Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people. Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles. Individuals were often led away in whatever they happened to be wearing at the time of arrest - sometimes in pyjamas or underwear - and were denied the opportunity to gather a few essential belongings, such as clothing, hygiene items, medicine or eyeglasses. Those who surrendered with a suitcase often had their belongings confiscated. In many cases personal belongings were seized during the arrest, with no receipt being issued (see section 6, below).

7. Certain CF military intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70% and 90% of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.

8. In accordance with provisions of International humanitarian Law which oblige the CF to treat prisoners of war and other protected persons humanely and to protect them against acts of violence, threats thereof, intimidation and insults (Art. 13 14,17, 87, Third Geneva Convention; Art. 5, 27, 31,32, 33 Fourth Geneva Convention); the ICRC asks the authorities of CF to respect at all times the human dignity. physical integrity and cultural sensitivity of the persons deprived of their liberty held under their control. The ICRC also asks the authorities of CF to ensure that battle group units arresting individuals receive adequate training enabling them to operate in a proper manner and fulfill their responsibilities without resorting to brutality or using excessive force.

and (in Basrah!)

13. One allegation collected by the ICRC concerned the arrest of nine men by the CF in a hotel in Basrah on 13 September 2003. Following their arrest, the nine men were made to kneel, face and hands against the ground, as if in a prayer position. The soldiers stamped on the back of the neck of those raising their head. They confiscated their money without issuing a receipt. The suspects were taken to Al-Hakimiya, a former office previously used by the mukhabarat in Basrah and then beaten severely by CF personnel. One of the arrestees died following the ill-treatment (################# aged 28, married, father of two children). Prior to his death, his co-arrestees heard him screaming and asking for assistance.

The issued "International Death Certificate" mentioned "Cardio-respiratory arrest - asphyxia" as the condition directly leading to the death. As to the cause of that condition. it mentioned "Unknown" and "Refer to the coroner". The certificate did not bear any other mention. An eyewitness' description of the body given to the ICRC mentioned a broken nose, several broken ribs and skin lesions on the face consistent with beatings. The father of the victim was informed of his death on 18 September, and was invited to identify the body of his son. On 3 October, the commander of the CF in Basrah presented to him his condolences and informed him that an investigation had been launched and that those responsible would be punished. Two other persons deprived of their liberty were hospitalised with severe injuries. Similarly, a week later, an ICRC medical doctor examined them in the hospital and observed large haematomas with dried scabs on the abdomen, buttocks, sides, thigh, wrists, nose and forehead consistent with their accounts of beatings received.

[Basil]

Engineer,
<<whether fake or not it at least these pictures highlighted the abuse that maybe going on>>
Are you really serious? Do you mean because we've seen high quality pictures of a little mouse called Jerry getting the better of a cat called Tom that the mice are guilty of duffing up cats?


Jackonicko,
The ICRC was allowed access to prisons - I do not believe that was permitted in Saddam's time.
There is a guerrilla war in progress. The injuries referred to could have been sustained in battle, resisting arrest or because an over wrought soldier is pissed off with being fired upon or seeing his colleagues injured or killed.

<<According to the allegations collected by the ICRC, ill-treatment . . . not systematic, . . . variety of harsh treatments ranging from insults, threats and humiliations to both physical and psychological coercion, which in some cases was tantamount to torture, in order to force cooperation with their interrogators. >>
In other words the ICRC are saying that this DOES NOT amount to torture but may have had the same effect.

Have any of you pundits been in battle? I haven't but I can imagine just slightly how the troops feel.
I certainly would not approach them or allow my little kids to go begging sweets from guys who (necessarily) have their fingers on the trigger. I am sorry for the little girl who was shot and for her family but one has to ask if kids should be allowed out to run around men at war?

[jingly]

hear is a question for all the armchair critics out there. Once the Iraqi forces/governing bodies take over, if i continue to get stoned, shot at , rocketed and mortared by the fine people of this country will i be able to sue for compensation? I would say probably not.

[Pilgrim101]

Sorry Jacko

You always acquit yourself extremely well on this forum with facts, research and eloquence (So you're not a real Journalist then ?:} )

However, the Mirror fit up has confirmed all our fears that the media are second only to Politicians in their mendacity and self interest, and that in itself is bad for our one sided democracy.

Unsavoury incidents occur in Wartime and that is a sad fact of life. Interesting to note that the same people who scream fit up when the police get a little "over zealous" are only too prepared to use the same tactics to achieve a political aim. The Mirror has proven itself to be yet another cynical organ for misinformation and spin, the very thing it professes to despise in anything right handed.

[Engineer]

Basil

What a analogy abuse of detainees with a Hanna and Barbera cartoon characters. Must have missed that episode where Jerry hooded Tom and then pi$$ed on him.

Maybe Chuck Jones could do the voice overs for some of the pictures (if he was still alive that is).

The ICRC was allowed access to prisons - I do not believe that was permitted in Saddam's time. is this the eye for an eye tooth for a tooth syndrome shining through here

P101
Unsavoury incidents occur in Wartime and that is a sad fact of life. Is the war still on? or is this an occupying force trying to maintain stability

[Basil]

The point which I was attempting to make was the ridiculous use of FAKE pictures to support something which "someone" IMAGINED MAY have happened.
I have been to Basra. If I felt that my child had been targetted as a direct result of the publication of these FAKE photos I would be extremely displeased.

<<eye tooth >>
I think you may have misunderstood me. I was pointing out one of the differences between the two regimes.
However, since you mention it, I haven't seen anyone suggest that the sawing off of the head of Nick Berg was like for like retaliation for relatively normal pre interrogation treatment of guerrillas. Poor darlings - a hood over their head and their little willies on display and there's a guy on BBC telling us how much of an insult this is to a Muslim. Well I have news for him - we Christians don't particularly like it either but there's a war on and, as far as I know, WE are NOT cold bloodedly cutting prisoners heads off.

I would re-iterate - I was never in favour of the invasion and do not blindly support it. There are no WMD. Our incompetent politicians have got us into a mess. I am not prepared to sit quietly and hear the British military blamed by incompetent greedy journalists.

[Pilgrim101]

Engineer

""""Is the war still on? or is this an occupying force trying to maintain stability""""""

Good Point :E However, I was alluding to the fact that the cases involved have been sub judice for quite some time and any such practices will have been stomped on to the nth degree now.

Also, I believe the transparency of the Military and the gathering of evidence for possible Courts Martial was the catalyst for the media reporting ? Reporting which turned into farce.

I believe that when you are killing and being killed, War is as good a name for it as any.

"Police Actions" tend to be very messy because of untidy ROE and the fact that British Soldiers have been prosecuted or been called to legal account in the past (Ireland, VCP; Gibraltar "shoot to kill" etc etc ) for doing their job in the heat of a particular hostile situation and this is a limiting factor in protecting oneself.

Also. try not to forget what a **** magnet Iraq has become for International terror groups. Good kill zone, preferable to our own turf !

[Engineer]

Basil
I am not prepared to sit quietly and hear the British military blamed
But it would appear that in the IRCR there is blame.

Maybe blame needs to be attributed a bit like the Dol Dol incident which also involved the BA

There maybe need for concern When a Muslim sees his fellow religious brother abused he may feel the need to act. The Berg incident is a classic example of the eye for an eye syndrome. When you occupy a country you need to have a sneaky clean image If you dont except the consequences

Pilgrim101

Never allude facts talk for themselves Iraq is a totally different culture like most of the muslim states for a complete understanding you would need to be both muslim and arabic that is why the western culture is entrenched there now

[Pilgrim101]

Engineer,

Not entirely true; as a fluent Arabic speaker who has served in Oman, UAE, Kuwait and Jordan and other several Moslem societies over many years I think the reaction to the lies and propaganda put out by the politically inspired Mirror will have immense repercussions in a highly volatile situation. The fact remains that Morgan played to an audience, gambled with our lives and lied to the British public and the world. Sadly, the indications are that many are prepared to overlook the fabrication of such evidence to achieve their own agendas in todays cynical media and political environments.

Amateurish reporting too if I may observe. Many on this forum argue and present their case much more eloquently than the average Fleet Street tabloid hack.

By the way, the region has been steeped in Western influence for decades if not hundreds of years. Have you visited Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Bahrain etc etc For those laughingly regarded as "third world" Countries, many put the UK infrastructure to shame.

Sadly we can\'t get the toothpaste back into the tube !:ouch:

[Basil]

Eng,
Please don't edit my comment and then quote it back at me. Are you a journalist?

<<When a Muslim sees his fellow religious brother abused he may feel the need to act.>>
Am I, as a European Christian, permitted to feel the same need to act? Should Christians all now rush out and begin lopping Islamic heads? I don't think so.

Oh, and ref: <<Must have missed that episode where Jerry hooded Tom and then pi$$ed on him.>> That, of course was one of the fakes.

[soddim]

One can understand the concern shown by many on this thread that the ICRC report should receive the right response from the politicians and military. However, I cannot agree with Jacko's idea that it is necesssary for Western journalists to embark on their own campaign for recognition of the issue when it endangers the lives of many British servicemen and women as well as civilians not only in Iraq but also in other muslim countries.

Our society may not be as decent as it was nor our politicians as honest as they used to be, however, there is a democratic process to explore before sensational publication. Why not try writing to one's MP before playing into the hands of the fanatics in Iraq? There should have been much lobbying and discreet pressure before publication.

If our journos think that they are the only people capable of righting the wrongs of this sorry conflict they must have delusions of grandeur. In this case I believe the only objective was to sell more newspapers.

[Engineer]

Toothpaste should have never have been let out in the first paste. :{:p

Is the IRCR another example of "Amateurish reporting" or maybe PM is being used as a scapegoat to deflect the true fact.

You mentioned all of those places that have a delicate western culture but you missed out the big one SA

Bas

Sorry for attempting to edit your comment it was a slip of the mouse (yet another H and B jerry fake) :D

No you will not go and lop off the next person's head because the society that you were brought up in have different values! Is that not the difference

soddim

So what was the political objectives then? Lord only knows what has happened in G Bay

[soddim]

Not sure what you mean, Engineer.

But I am prepared to listen.

[Astrodome]

Its so depressing that there are so many organisations that hasten to support those of questionable background at the expense of the innocent.

Time after time some so called organisation manages to promote headlines by criticising those attempting to deal with those whose aims are the destruction of civilised society.

I guess that those in Iraqi jails are not your ordinary person so I for one am not too worried if their 'human rights' are not quite strictly by the book.

What seems to be forgotten is that the poor unfortunates killed and maimed by these various terrorist outfits also have (or had) Human Rights - i.e. the right to life.

This places the person who has taken that right away in contravention of the Human Rights Act, surely?

Where are these Organisations then? Where were they when Saddam was in power, or the Tailban ? What inspections of the jails did they carry out then?

Arrogant arseh*les like Piers Moron and others of his ilk have done enormous damage to this country, and others, by the poisonous crap that they write which is generally neither accurate or true and is generally published only for the benefit of increasing their sales and profit.

They sit back with their leftist assertions of 'press freedom' and such with absolutely no concept of the difference between responsible and irresponsible reporting. Anything will do and lets not let the facts get in the way of a good story boys.

Two points :- Firstly many people, much better than the average journalist have given their lives to ensure that these morons can print the sort of crap that they do, and secondly if these journalists really want to report something why don't they have a crack at the Countries and religious groupings who promote such attrocities.

Also maybe they should start reporting some of the things that Saddam and his family did to the ordinary Iraqis?..or maybe that is against their leftist and anti-UK/American tendency ?

Rant off - sorry

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Eng,

'Is the war still on?'

Well, given the coordinated mortar, rocket and RPG attacks on MND(SE) bases including Basra Airport and Al Amarah, the private armies marching out to fight, the VBIEDs, the small arms fire, the anti aircraft fire and the rest - I'd say yes.

British Forces treat captives with a respect and humanity that they know they would not receive if the tables were turned. That takes some discipline; clearly more than many US personnel are capable of.

And - interrogation techniques including psychological coercion? You'd get psychological coercion in a police interview back home!

[Pilgrim101]

Engineer

There is no doubt that Morgan's lies have contributed to the instability in the region and the now obsessive regurgitation of photos of the same incidents in the media betrays the irresponsibility and cynicism of the reporting involved.

That such incidents occurred is bad enough without the repeated self flagellation that our so called reporters indulge in on our behalf. We just watched that pr!ck on Sky satellite out here inflaming the situation with his hack reporting and pathetic need for attention to his 15 minutes of fame. What a load of bollox !

By the way, I did allude to KSA in my previous post. Having "worked" in Sharurah (If the world had piles, that's where they would be ;) ), Riyadh, Al Jubayl and Kashm Al Aan I know that the reporting in the West is likely to inflame the inadequate Islamist fanatics in the Land of Sand into randomly pointing Kalashnikovs at Westerners and pulling hard on the trigger to satisfy their perception of eye for an eye. One German down in Riyadh so far on that premise :mad:

[kilo52]

I hold no brief for Mr Morgan but the "spin" that the current government utilise on any adverse (from their point of view) story would doubtless have played a part in his decision to publish.

If he had referred the pictures to MOD then Cpl Plod would have carried out an investigation and found the pictures were fake. In the time that such an investigation was being carried out the "newsworthy" aspect of the pictures would have diminished and a rival news organisation may have beaten the ragsheet to the story.

We must never forget that HMG do not have a good track record on this sort of story. In (I think) 1942 the Polish Government in Exile published a detailed report on what was happening in Concentration Camps in Poland and the systematic murder of the Jews. That report was rejected by the UK and US Governments.

[Arkroyal]

If he had referred the pictures to MOD then Cpl Plod would have carried out an investigation and found the pictures were fakeIt needed no Cpl Plod, as anyone with an ounce of common sense could see that these pictures were fake in seconds.

the "newsworthy" aspect of the pictures would have diminished and a rival news organisation may have beaten the ragsheet to the story.
Story? The pictures were very obvious fakes. So what story?

Morgan must have known that these pictures were not genuine, What his motives were for publishing would be most interesting to discover.

[Engineer]

Draw breath ready to reply

Soddim

Reread my comment and understand that they may appear cryptic let me allude.

Political objectives:
Why did the GWB go there in the first place maybe to demonstrate world political power or was it to depose a despot Hopefully Zimbabwe Iran or North Korea is on his list oops sorry just remembered they do not have oil:D

G Bay:
Simple if the abuse in Iraq has gone on unabated what has happened in Cuba?

Next one

Pilgrim101

Has he lied or did (what was) his paper open our eyes to the truth If he lied I thank him for being a liar. If not I still thank him and the Mirror for opening the can of worms

Fg Off Max Stout
Is the war still on
No it is not but what is happening is a
occupying force is trying to maintain stability in a region that does not have the same social-political structure as at home What more can I say.

Except today I watched a cow having its throat cut but here that is a part of society which I have to respect. Simple really if you are willing to accept
:ok:

[Pilgrim101]

Engineer

So its OK to fabricate evidence as long as the newspaper believes there is wrongdoing ?:confused:

Newspapers are now the last bastion of truth and honour in the West ? We're all doomed, doomed I tell you :}

[soddim]

Engineer

You can get as cryptic as you like but the point of this thread was the way Piers Morgan behaved - nothing whatsoever to do with political objectives or the rights and wrongs of the war over Iraq.

There have been many other threads on that subject if you wish to find one and add to it.

If you wish to defend Piers Morgan and the rest of the media who seem hell bent on further endangering western lives in the ME please come up with something more relevant.