Jet Connect - a Clayton QANTAS?

[Kaptin M]

Trans Tasman travel is now the least expensive it has ever been, in my memory - I can take my wife and 2 sprogs over to the Land of the Long White Cloud, and back (to the Main Island) ALL for the same price it cost just me alone some 2 or 3 years ago :ok:

Now whilst aircraft types operated on this route have remained reasonably static (737/767), and the routing is pretty much a constant, I find it hard to believe that by screwing (pilot and F/A) salaries down as far as they have been, the fares could drop so much.
It seems more likely - imo - that the system was being rorted by those at the helm.

But with the lower prices, I am now noticing a decline in the STANDARD of service being delivered.
I have been a regular, full-fare paying, trans-Tasman traveller for the past decade or more, travelling at least twice, and up to 4 times in one year with my family.
I had flown with Air New Zealand on several occasions, but finally settled on QANTAS as my airline of choice.

But from my last experience (QF55 on May 4th, and QF56 on May11th) - both flights operated by Jet Connect - I'm considering reviewing my options.
Prior to take-off, we were advised, "Inflight Duty Free sales will not be available on this sector."
Although a minor point, I believe that if the crew are going to make PA's, their info should be factual.
As well-worn as it is, the "There may be 50 ways to leave your lover, but there are only 6 ways to leave this aircraft" line got a giggle from the girl behind, the information for the B733 aircraft was INcorrect, and had me wondering if the guy making the PA in fact really did know how many emergency exits there were - and if he didn't, then what else did he NOT know?!

The cabin service on the flight from Oz to NZ was "shoddy" - no pre-dinner drinks were offered - with the choice of meals coming down to, "This one is all we have left", well before only half the pax had been served, simply because the choices were "chalk & cheese"!
Precisely the SAME thing had happened to me some 4 months prior on the N.Z. - Oz sector, flying Business Class! :\

QF56 was better managed (imo) - however, I was advised prior to take-off, that inflight Duty Free sales would only be on a time available basis.
Unfortunately for me (and other pax) the Seat Belt sign was switched on straightaway following the serving of the meals, with an announcement that "The Captain has switched on the seat belt sign due to turbulence...blah, blah" - in spite of being in 8/8ths blue, with scattered Cu some 10-20,000 feet below.
Not surprisingly, the ride was like skating on glass for the next 12 minutes (we made no course deviations) as the cabin crew retired behind drawn curtains to undoubtedly enjoy a communal dine-in.
Sorry guys, but you work in a Service Industry capacity, and if you can't deliver, then you know what to do!

And so, because my Boarding Pass is branded OPERATED BY JETCONNECT, are QANTAS trying to absolve themselves of their responsibilities to deliver?
Because IF they are, I'll consider the other choices now available to me - Pacific Blue, Freedom, Emirates, Air New Zealand!:D

[Lodown]

Kaptin M, I've been trying to avoid a particular Oz airline for a number of years for the same reasons. Flight and aircraft standards haven't been an issue, but the service levels leave a lot to be desired. I realise service levels will vary to some degree between flights, however I have been on the receiving end of too many cases of poor service for my liking.

I used to travel regularly between Australia and Japan. By halfway through the flight on the Oz airline, cabin staff were almost non-existent. By the end of the flight, my mouth was dry and the aircraft bathrooms were shocking. I've seen worse on other airlines, but when there is a choice, well...

Japan Airlines in comparison, was great. I'd often be the only person still awake and reading, yet the cabin staff would graciously check on me regularly and bring some water and hot, wet towels. Halfway through the flights, cabin staff would don the gloves and the bathrooms would be made spotless. Little things went a long way. There would still be the occasional annoying flight, but it was rare.

When I get reports that the Oz airlines have improved their service standards, I might actually search them out again, but for the time being, I'm happy travelling with other airlines.

[Kaptin M]

Perhaps it's a case of the "customer" now getting what the crew are being told they are worth, Lodown.
Morale is being affected in such a way that the "flow on" is going to start affecting the bottom line - you (and I) being cases in point!

Yes, captain m, it was a 737-300. The PA that was made was verbatim as quoted above.
How many emergency exits do you think a Boeing 737-300 has? :confused:

[*Lancer*]

Having only ridden in a 733 (and perhaps paid too much attention to incorrect directions), I would have thought 2 at the front, 2 at the back, and 2 in the middle was about right!

[Wizofoz]

Kap,

Unless you are refering to the DV windows (Which have not been included in the Pax PA of any airline I have worked for or ridden on) Six is the only number I can come up with.

I'm intrigued...Please enlighten us.

[E.P.]

I guess if you count the cockpit windows???????????? :(

[Kaptin M]

"I guess if you count the cockpit windows"
I guess Boeing - and every airline that operates B733's )and other aircraft types) - includes those as , "one of the ways of leaving the aircraft".
My comment was about the FACTUAL content of the info given in the PA, as part of the overall impression I got, of the service orovided by Jet Connect.
The PA given on that flight left me wondering whether the person making it (and the other F/A's) were aware that there are 2 cockpit sliding windows for use as an emergency exit.
Had he known this, I would have expected the PA might have gone something more along the lines of, "There may be 50 ways to leave your lover, but there are only 8 ways to leave this aircraft - 6 of which may be available to you, and will be shown by the crew. Another 2 are located in the cockpit".

[Mr. Boeing]

So has anybody actually written a complaint?

[jokeStar]

Kaptin M,

Firstly, I just want to say that I don't always tend to agree with everything you say on pprune, but do enjoy your post's, as you put forward relatively good, informative stuff.

I'm blown away at how naive you are as you seem to come across as a very experience jet jockey generally.

Whilst not agreeing with what the flighty said "There may be 50 ways to leave your lover, but there are only 6 ways to leave this aircraft" on a QF 'operated' (:ugh: ) aircraft, as I feel thats more of a Virgin type slant on the way they do/say things in the cabin etc.

Now last time I checked, both Qantas Link (EAA/SS) operators DON'T advise the pax on a Q300 that there is also a hatch in the cockpit and a galley/service door down the back of the cabin that is termed an "exit" of any kind.

So on your airline, do your flighties seem to mention crew exits to pax do they? I doubt it somehow.

Service levels. Agreed. Poor. No argument.

[Cloud Cutter]

I have never heard a 737-300 PA mentioning anything other than the 4 main doors, and 2 overwing hatches - nor would I expect to. On the other hand, I'm not too fussed about the rest of the PA, mixing this important information in with a very bad joke. It's fine to try and make up for the lack of any real entertainment on a flight (Freedom Air don't even have inflight movies) - but imo pax briefings should be treated seriously - just because it's unlikely to happen, doesn't mean it won't.

I do see what Kaptin M is saying though ... there are only 6 ways for you to leave this aircraft is not a factually correct statement, and shows ignorance on the part of the FA. Perhaps something allong the lines of there are 6 exits throught which it is approved for you to disembark in an emergency would suffice, might get a bit confusing though.:confused:

[yellow rocket]

>>Sorry guys, but you work in a Service Industry capacity



EXCUSE ME?

I actually thought that we Flight Attendants, like Pilots, worked in a Flight Safety capacity. How our marketing department chooses to differentiate us to the customer is another matter.

Did you notice how many Flight Attendants were in the cabin? Was it an all economy config? Which under NZ regs means there would have been a minimum crew of THREE working in the cabin. Deliver a meal and bar, a chat, recover, make duty free sales, look after the cockpit team, and prepare the aircraft for the return sector. Did you notice that there would have been no inflight rest area for that cabin crew - who may have been working their SIXTH DAY STRAIGHT of a flight duty time which is the same length as a long haul flight time?

If you are in fact a pilot yourself, don't you attempt to anticipate turbulence and put the seat belt sign on BEFORE it gets there? And liase with the Cabin Safety Professionals about making a precautioinary p.a to the customers? That's called CRM.

I make no excuses for poor service or lazy crew, there is always time to complete a service - bar turbulence or medicals - it's only the level of the challenge that changes. However, if you pay peanuts for your airfare you will get monkies to serve you. Most of the time though, you will get Cabin Safety Professionals who are there out of pure passion and professionalism, and whose exploited passion is subsidising your family holiday.

What more do you want when someone is being paid on or slightly under a net AUD$24-30K a year - with no career progression opportunity past that wage point?

You get what you pay for. Pay slave wages, with slave-like employment conditions and the service you describe is increasingly what you will get.

Want more, pay more. Don't want it, don't buy it.

[MoFo]

I too have experienced Jit Connect. The positive thing is there are alternatives and I will use them in future.

To the hash slinger who laments the pay rates and lack of promotion I ask, why are you working there? Take your valuable skilled services somewhere else. I'm sure you'd be hard to replace.

[CallButton]

Hey Lodown, try Australian Airlines. The cabin crew do a water run and a toilet clean every half hour through the entire flight, not just halfway like Japan Airlines.

The crew, in my limited paxing experience, virtually never spend time congregating in the galley, are always happy and put the customer first.

I hope that they are able to maintain this positive atmosphere as I realise that they are all relatively new still...

Oh, don't forget, it is all economy class however...

[BankAngle50]

I agree with “M” on the standards provided to Oz/NZ travellers. Although I say this with the cavitate, that the consumer is also partly to blame, especially on the domestic sectors. People are happy to pay $7 for a starbucks coffee, $40 eating out lunch etc., but if I they can get $2 off an airline ticket they will jump through hoops. If consumers want to fly and not pay for it, then I guess how can they complain about the standards they themselves are tactility demanding from the market? I think the monopolistic market place for us is also a factor.

What annoys me is when pax accept the fact they will pay more to fly QF, because they want more seat pitch, better meal, etc.. and get ripped off. I flew BNE-MEL last week business class on a clapped out B763 (in reference to the old interior fit) and got served up 20gramms of chicken, stale bread roll and a small piece of cheese. Joke!
To make it worse they won’t let you in the Qantas Club in BNE because domestic business class don’t get let in. Fair enough, if that’s the rules I suppose. Shame as in the old days flying Ansett or Australian the hot meal in Y BNE-SYD was better than QF J class to MEL. Considering we arrive after 7pm you would think a hot meal would be on the cards in J class surely.

What’s even worse is when I fly to SIN or HKG and get on that old sh1t-heap B743 (SIN QF51) and B763 (HKG), once again referring only to the old interior, not these wonderful Boeings which they are. I see SQ or CX taxing past in the brand new 777 or 333 with new interior and TVs for all. I couldn’t even see the TV screen coming back form SIN last trip (B743) which was burly and my headsets wouldn’t work anyway. Every time I fly SQ I think, gee I wish I could be proud of my national carrier like Singaporeans are with SQ and the wonderful service provided by the crew. Hey talking cabin service only, not Tech, so don’t bring up all their flying screw-up’s, as we aren’t talking tech. What an embarrassment it is to fly with foreign citizens on board, when you see them clearly pissed-off with the state of the old cabins on B743 and B767 fleet. I won’t start on how useless the overhead bins are in these types. 2 trips ago on QF52 from SIN just before rotation all this water comes rushing out of the roof (seems normal out of SIN on the -300) and spills all over these people coming for the holiday here. One idiot got out of his seat and run toward the galley area to tell the crew, thinking this was unsafe. These pax all seemed really scared. Just an embarrassment and then having to sit long haul with no TVs. Joke QF!!! :*

I guess as long as the aircraft are full then Dickson is laughing all the way to the bank. Come in suckers! What can you do when you have a monopoly? I wish we could have the same standard of SQ in-flight service, aircraft fittings and combine it with the current Tech crews, then we would have the best airline in the world, and one all Aussie could really be proud off.:ok:

[ditzyboy]

Kaptain -

The 733 has 6 exits. The crew were correct. The announcement however doesn't fit in with the culture QF aims to promote. I am sure this person's manager would love to hear about it.

Pre meal bar is only offered on Lunch and Dinner flights (not time of day but depend on the meal) and only on sectors with a PLANNED flight time of more then 2 hours 45 mins. Not sure if that applied in your case but this rule is applied across ALL QF flight numbers Trans Tasman. (As an aside QF stopped separate bar services in Y on domestic as pax want more drinks and to have their empties taken away quicker than you can serve them. We get away with it on the 717 only because of a higher FA-pax ratio. That is not a luxury on JetConnect services!)

Also the horrendous conditions at JetConnect will make it hard for crew to shine in service. NO EXCUSE for poor service but that is the REASON all the same. I agree if one is unhappy they should leave or do something about their conditions. If crew are happy they will consistantly perform better.

Bank Angle -
There will be much needed improvements to the QF domestic product before the end of the year. Possible as most of the low end trash will fly with us at JQ. :hmm: Can't wait.

[34R]

Hey Kap

Whilst I agree the standards of inflight service are disappointing at best, I must say your anal retentive summary of the PA with regards to exit number astounds me.
Yes, those that have a vested interest know there are 8 ways out of a 737-3, but as far as pax are concerned there are six.

Experts in all fields could pick the sh!t out of everything if they were so inclined, thankfully most keep it to themselves.

Take a day off mate or get a life, 'cause if something like that bothers you, I fail to see how you would enjoy anything in your life.

[BankAngle50]

Ditzy

No complaints about the service provided on Impulse, although I haven’t used ID on them since the 125 seat config came in. I think the service and lite meals are quite good for a regional airline such as yours. Impulse provides excellent service considering they earn was less than the folks here at QF.

My main beef was the crap standard in J class on QF and Y class on international sectors utilising B743 and B767 aircraft. B744 is very reasonable, although the attitude of some FA’s could be looked at. I believe all customers on QF whether Y, J or F should be treated as royalty, just like SQ and CX attempt (obviously within reason depending on the class). For most people the flight is a real part of the novelty of travelling and unlike us, people who don’t do it everyday would like it to be special. Just like the old days.

I was shocked the last time Paxing from LHR-SIN on QF25 when a rude FA basically spoke to a client (what I refer to as paying pax) like a dog. The person was siting in an Emergency row with hand luggage at his feet. An obvious "no no", so I was waiting for a FA to polity ask him or help him put it in a bin. The male FA abruptly told this pax off like he was some ****** for not knowing you couldn’t have baggage at your feet in an Emerg row. The guy looked like it was his first time on a Jumbo and I heard him prior say to the pax opposite how excited he was to be flying QANTAS. The pax's first language was not English and he thought the FA wanted to look at his bag. As he handed the FA his bag, he was confronted with “ I’m not a baggage handler mate, you can put it up yourself,” and the FA then stormed off. The pax next to him translated and he stowed his bag above. SHAME AND DISAPPOINTMENT!!! Anybody who has ever flown our competitors SQ or CX would be not doubt astounded at this FA’s attitude.

Maybe we need to get some of the impulse folks who would appreciate doubling their current salary and who are indeed much nicer to clients.

Ditzy good luck with the so called “low end” because if we keep it up the only QF flight domestic will be the odd MEL-SYD.

[ACMS]

Howdy all,
I work for CX but travel HKG-OZ- HKG on QF quite a bit. (out of necessity)
I agree that their inflight service is pathetic, to the point that I'm ashamed to be an Aussie and not proud of "my airline" one bit.

-I asked a F/A if I could stow my jacket in his J class coat closet to be told " yeh ok but I'm not giving it back to you"
-They wake you up at 0430 for breakfast even if you don't want any saying "you have to put your seat forward anyway so the guy behind can eat"
-The Video quality is terrible the sound rarely works and never in Stereo. Half the time only 1 ear piece works!
-FA's shouting across the cabin to another FA
-rudely being told to put the tray table up
etc etc I'm sure there are many more examples

I travelled full fare a while ago and decided to put these complaints into words on a "complaint form" So I asked an FA for a form, the FA looked at me for a minute confused and then said I'm sorry we don't have those!! Well there is the first problem.

And I'm not going to mention the toilets.

I actually get on a CX flight and breath a sigh of relief.

[DirectAnywhere]

Hey BA 50, good news on the 743s at least, as the only ones flying now are the four that have had flight deck and cabin upgrades done. J and Y class config, similar to the -400s apart from the lack of Skybeds. All inseat tvs and entertainment systems. The other two are in the pipeline.

ACMS there should be feedback forms on the aeroplane. Get the FA to ask the CSM and if there are not, put in a complaint about the lack of feedback froms!

The only way QF is going to get better with respect to any aspect of its service is if our customers provide feedback with info on specific incidents and specific flights and, ideally, specific individuals. So please, start writing, for all our sakes!:)

[rescue 1]

Any word on the culture survey?

Not that there will be too many surprises...:rolleyes:

[yellow rocket]

For most people the flight is a real part of the novelty of travelling and unlike us, people who don’t do it everyday would like it to be special. Just like the old days.

Believe it or not there are some of us out there who go into the cabin every day and try to treat our customers like royalty for precisely that reason BankAngle50.

I've observed similar moments you describe from your LHR-SIN experience. On similar occasions I've wanted to disappear into the floor to get away from some colleague's behaviour. There is never any reason to demoralise a customer (or colleague for that matter) especially when they are innocent of some special safety related requirements. All the more reason to take the time to explain why and make it a part of the unique flight experience.

Frankly, I blame HR. Assessment centres and behavioral competency crap seem to elevate those who are experts at telling assessors what they want to hear, rather than those who can prove what they have achieved.

Your LHR-SIN f/a will probably make CSS in no time.

[woftam]

Errrr....... when did QF25 start going from LHR to SIN?
I thought it was a BNE- LAX service.
:confused:

[BankAngle50]

Woftam
I apologise and stand corrected on the flt #. Indeed QF/25 is BNE-AKL-LAX. I actually meant the aircraft with QFA32 on the plan. Well done son, you just demonstrated why multi-crew is so valuable. Cheers!:ok:

Yellow rocket.
You are a credit to the company and unfortunately i have to agree with your summations. People such as yourself have been let down by management and the boffins who use to wear the “gold ties!” (not all of the CSMs I must add). The leaders set the tone and must uphold and enforce standards required by the company. They have failed! What we need to ask is why so many in the company are unhappy, as I believe this is the core problem. How can we fix it and make QF better than SQ and CX who openly laugh at our service with good reason?

With respect to our Customers;
Unfortunately the problem at QF is aft of the cockpit door where most of my criticism has been directed. The ambiance behind the door is what our customers experience and you lot are the front line in representing QF. Obviously there are folks such as yourself who do their best and I should have acknowledged your efforts. I just feel sad when colleges at SQ and CX laugh at my airlines standards. It shames me as ACMS has stated also. We have the $, we have the people, we have the experience, so why why is QF not equal to SQ and CX??? I didn’t want to simply blame management, but I guess they are the leaders. :{ :{ :{

[gameboy1971]

the biggest difference in crew cost is the having the crew based in NZ. you pay for NZ>A>NZ>A>NZ with no overnight hotel and expenses.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I don't think cost is the determining factor in this equation. If it were the service provided on the Asian carriers would be truly abismal...you think you guys and gals are poorly paid and treated harshly, you should see the COS for the Asian boys and girls.

More a matter of perspective I would suggest. The cabin crews on Asian carriers are truly glad of a job at all and are, almost without exception young and enthusiastic.

They remain that way because they are burned out and resign within a few years and are replaced by the next lot of young kids.

Rather like the VB kids.

QF Cabin staff are, on average, a good 20 years older than their asian peers and have been doing the job a long time. They are sick and tired of it and view the pax is something less than important. They won't resign because the perks are too good and they can't be sacked/moved sideways because of Australia's labour laws.

QF mainline FAs are paid well by anyones standards,but the service is a disgrace. Do we really think paying them more would suddenly turn them into Singapore Girls?

Morale is a different question and I would certainly agree that Dixon seems to have a lot to answer for in this respect...if what I hear from inside is to be believed...and I see no reason not to.

I travelled to Seattle last November on Air Canada. It was a mirror image of QF:yuk: and for all the same reasons.

Chuck.

[Capt Claret]

BankAngle50

To single out a small part of your post, you asked;
so why why is QF not equal to SQ and CX

With respect to customer service my observations of Australian's is that generally, we are not very good at providing good customer service. e.g. "Anything else?"; "is that all?", "are you right?","teacoffee?". This is a fairly general comment and is not intended to detract from those in service industry who do provide good customer service.

Not having been an F/A I can only try to imagine myself in that position. I imagine that one would have a very finite lifespan of being polite to people (customers) who can often be quite rude. I also have the impression that F/A are not highly regarded by many people, in that they are often perceived as glorified wait persons. This must affect how pax treat said F/A and be part of the interaction between customer and F/A, and to some extent tech crew and F/A.

So, if as an F/A one does not feel that one is respected or valued, then it must get harder and harder to keep a smile on one's face, and provide happy and cheerful service. I suspect that after 10 years there's little enthusiasm left let alone after 20 or maybe even 30 years, just a pay packet.

[virgindriver]

Captain Marv.
Just looking at this thread after a few days away- with regards to cockpit windows- we brief jump seat pax that they ARE a means of escape. Maybe that does mean there are 8 exits on the 733 (737) for pax.....

[Kaptin M]

One of the main points of this topic was my intention to try to highlight the importance of making sure that any important info. given by the crew should be FACTUAL - the PA made by the cabin crew member concerned was NOT.
Remember, it is not only the pax who are listenining to, and watching the demos - it is other crew members as well, and these demonstrations are meant to serve as a refresher for each and every one of THEM, as well.

Although he cannot lay claim to having thought the "50 ways to leave you lover...." speel, it was a break from the routine/dull/monotonous PA's that FF'ers and crew are regularly subjected to, and I believe that had he (correctly) stated something along the lines of "There are 8 emergency exits, of which probably only 6 might be available to you..", it might also have refreshed the other cabin crew's memories.

Thanks for some very useful subject matter in your post, captain marvellous - it's stuff like that, that makes these discussions worthwile, and a valuable learning experience for those who read them, and enriches the knowledge of those employed in aviation.Experts in all fields could pick the sh!t out of everything if they were so inclined, thankfully most keep it to themselves. I don't claim to be an expert, 34R, just someone interested in trying to see that the high standards Australians and Kiwis have achieved over decades, is not allowed to slip, because if it does, WE are the ones who will wear the blame!

[GalleyHag]

Im sorry Kaptin M but why would crew start telling pax's about exits they may or may not be able to use and for that matter what airline in the world does that? The FACTUAL information for a passenger is that there are 6 exits end of story.

[deadhead]

Boy, Kap - you sure know how to take things to a higher plane!:D

dh

[Kaptin M]

Read the opening post, GH.
The FACT is - there are NOT (just) 6 ways of vacating a B733.
There are 8.
And as a passenger on that flight, I wondered whether the F/A making the PA knew that.
I also wondered if the other F/A's thought that there were only 6 emergency exits available, if the sh!t hit the fan.

As I tried to underscore in my previous post, PA's are not only for our entrusted passengers - they are, imo, a valuable refresher tool for experienced, and newbie, F/A's as well.

And just as a matter of interest, I wonder how many passengers who were not previously aware, are now, that there IS the possibility of an escape route via the flight deck should they find themselves trapped up the very front end?

[GalleyHag]

Of course the cabin crew would know how many exits are on the aircraft, why wouldnt they? Tell me what airline in the world tells their pax and CREW when doing the safety demo about 8 exits on a 733? Next you will want to include where the crew life jackets can be found, just in case the stupid cabin crew dont know where their life jacket is kept either. Please give me a break!!

[aresti]

You're flogging a dead horse Kaptin M, just admit, that on this occasion you a out of order and we'll all move on. I mean, next you'll be having a go, because said F/A didn't brief on the cockpit door security code so that the pax can take advantage of the all important sliding windows.

".... and just one last thing folks, in case you are having trouble getting out of the 6 exits provided we actually have 2 more. Now I'm gonna tell you a little secret so you can use them.........."

[Kaptin M]

Of course the cabin crew would know how many exits are on the aircraft, why wouldnt they? "There may be 50 ways to leave your lover, but there are only 6 ways to leave this aircraft""Tell me what airline in the world tells their pax and CREW when doing the safety demo about 8 exits on a 733?"
Probably none!

But this guy took it upon himself to vary the standard company PA.
And as such, HE should have ensured that HIS information was FACTUALLY CORRECT.

[Left2primary]

**************************************

Pedant

**************************************

[Wizofoz]

One of the main points of this topic was my intention to try to highlight the importance of making sure that any important info. given by the crew should be FACTUAL - the PA made by the cabin crew member concerned was NOT

Kap,

The airline you and I used to fly for (at different times) used to say "There are six emergency exits." I bet the one you work for now does the same (in Japanese). NOT FACTUAL?

I assume you have made your current employers aware of their shortcomings.

[Kaptin M]

".I bet the one you work for now does the same (in Japanese). NOT FACTUAL?

No, they don't, Wiz. The phraseology used translates to, "There are several emergency exits on this aircraft, please note the ones nearest to you

[Wizofoz]

So they are more correct by giving a less precise briefing???

[Kaptin M]

If you were to ask a Japanese that, Wiz, their response would be, "May be." (said with a slight upward inflection on the "be") :O

[GalleyHag]

Kaptin M I have always enjoyed reading your posts, however you have lost my respect with your attitude on this issue.

[fly_boy 4 flying]

Here here galley hag!!

Kaptain M, in any emergency have you ever heard of the passengers deplaning through the flight deck in an emergency?.......I THINK NOT!!
Common sense would usually prevail here (you'd think so, wouldn't you, ppruners?)
There are SIX.........THATS SIX emergency exits that are available to PASSENGERS in a 733. Would passengers be able to find the flight deck in darkness or when disoriented just to exit the aircraft when there are SIX dedicated passenger exits in the passenger cabin?? Just imagine a hundred odd passengers fumbling in darkness etc for the flight deck.......good luck getting through the flight deck door though........hmmmmmmmmm

[Cloud Cutter]

I don't think that cockpit exits should necessarily be pointed out in any detail. The fact remains however that the PA was incorrect - there are NOT only 6 ways to leave the aircraft.

Most similar PAs I can recall go something like...'the cabin crew are pointing out the emergency exits, two at the front ................. please note the exit nearest you' This is sufficient, and (even though only the 6 passenger exits are mentioned), factually correct.

I don't believe that just because the FA deems it unnecessary to point out all 'ways to leave the aircraft', (s)he should give false information. Pedantic maybe, but I can see where Kaptin M is coming from.

[overhere]

Fact: All printed material tells pax there are 6 exits, of course all the F/A's know about the 2 window exits.
Fact: All QF aircraft were unable to offer dutyfree for a period after May 1 due to a fault in the new system onboard. After the fault was fixed, some aircraft were still unable to offer it as not all crew were trained by the release date.
Fact: There is not always time to complete dutyfree sales on tasman sectors.
Fact: As Ditzyboy said the pre-bar can be cancelled if the flight time is under 2hr45min, there is a reduced crew compliment or there is anticipated turbulance.
Fact: Qantas errs on the side of caution, the seatbelt sign would never be switched on to allow crew to eat. What you do not know about is whether CAT was experienced by an a/c ahead etc and that was the reason for seating the pax/crew.

If you have complaints in regards to QF or its subsideries service, there are details on the website for you to provide your feedback to.

overhere

[ftrplt]

I cannot believe this crap has made 4 pages.

Get a life Kap.

[deadhead]

C'mon, you guys, look on the bright side: we can now go to EP refreshers and take the p!ss out of the instructor!:ouch:

[Bombay]

After FOUR pages of ramblings on this issue, for me, there is still one burning question:

Is Kaptain M the most boring person on earth, or just one of the most boring?

[itchybum]

The "ayes" have it.

You're shovelling shiite uphill Kaptin M.

Flogging a dead horse.

Pissing into the wind.

Noble effort, though. Your grim determination not to see the reason in EVERYONE else's posts is stirring!

[Kaptin M]

"Fact: All printed material tells pax there are 6 exits...."
FACT: All printed material indicates there are 8 emergency exits

"..of course all the F/A's know about the 2 window exits" You'd lose money if you backed that statement in a bet, overhere!

"Fact: All QF aircraft were unable to offer dutyfree for a period after May 1 due to a fault in the new system onboard."
FACT: It was a JetConnect aircraft operating the services - BNE-CHC-BNE - using a QF callsign.
Why wasn't a PA to this affect made?
For follow up, are you able to provide me with further details, overhere - by PM if you genuinely have some info.

Fact:...the seatbelt sign would never be switched on to allow crew to eat."
FACT: That statement is bullsh!t :eek: - after 33 years in aviation, and working for 5 different airlines, I have witnessed it in EVERY airline!

"If you have complaints in regards to QF or its subsideries service, there are details on the website for you to provide your feedback to."
Correct - however QANTAS are infamous for not responding to their customers.

Excellent post ftrplt - maintaining your standard I see. :rolleyes:

captain marvellous, at NO time do cargo hold doors EVER figure as emergency exits for pax or crew..."How ridiculous should a passenger briefing be in order to be technically correct?". It needn't be ridiculous at all - simply FACTUAL.
The FACTS being there may be 6 emergency exits available to pax - but there are more than 6 (8 in FACT) on the aircraft.
His PA was NOT FACTUAL - a point many of you seem to find difficult to understand.

[prospector]

Kaptin M,
One could only hope that you would not be one of the sharp end crew trampled in the rush to get out the DV windows if the need arose. Or perhaps n??????


Prospector

[itchybum]

To those who seem to have flown the 737, what do the letter DV stand for, in relation to the cockpit emergency exits?

[lame]

They are traditionally on most Aircraft called CV (clear view) windows. ;)

DV is another term, (direct vision). :D

In rare cases these windows can be opened in flight (after depressurising) to see outside, like some contamination on the windscreens, really bad bird strike, or maybe even smoke filling the cockpit.

Also of course, as mentioned, for Pilots to egress in an emergency. :ok:

NOT much use though in this sort of situation...........

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/smildeck.gif

;)

[prospector]

lame,

Well done, but where are the little green men????

Prospector

[lame]

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/Miscalien.gif

;) :D

[woftam]

Hey Kap,
There's an old saying in politics "when you've dug yourself a hole,stop digging".
;)

[Kaptin M]

This ain't politics - the "P's" stand for "Professional, and [b]Pilots" - and in this case Persistence - in attempting to have some see the BIGGER picture, vs a tunnel vision view of what may seem routine procedures on aircraft.
PA's are not just for the travelling pax - they are meant to also serve as refreshers for the crew onboard.

[DDG]

KAPTAIN M,
Just interested to know how you plan to exit via the #2 windows in the flight deck when there is dirty big bullet proof door between you and said windows.
The #2 sliding windows are for flight crew emergency egress only!
Passengers will never be briefed on an exit/s that they can not access due to the security requirement of the "sterile flight deck".

[Kaptin M]

We seem to be going round and round in circles here, DDG, but let's open our minds up just a LITTLE.

First off, I am not advocating routinely advising/confusing pax of the cockpit windows (and in the case of larger aircraft, the overhead hatch) as a means of escape in an emergency.
What I said at the outset (and several times subsequently) was that the PA's should be FACTUAL - if you want to vary them from the norm, then by all means do so, but make sure that what YOU have decided to say is CORRECT....how you plan to exit via the #2 windows in the flight deck when there is dirty big bullet proof door between you and said windows.In any evacuation, the cockpit crew are REQUIRED to assist - so that "dirty big bullet proof door" will NOT be closed.The #2 sliding windows are for flight crew emergency egress only!I think you will find the wording is "is INTENDED for flight crew emergency egress only".
No emergency is predictable, and in the case such as the B737 that caught fire in Manchester, U.K, and several enmergency exits were blocked due to slides on the upwind side catching fire and being blown across the exits, I'm sure that the cockpit windows - whilst not INTENDED for pax evac - would provide a last opportunity of escape in such a situation.
Similarly, a ditching might also present a scenario where the cabin crew's knowledge that there are (albeit small) emergency exits in the cockpit could mean the difference between life and death.Passengers will never be briefed on an exit/s that they can not access...Again, that is NOT my intention - and again - PA's are not ONLY for the pax, they are meant to serve as refreshers for the crew as well.
And they must be FACTUAL - especially in the case of F/A's who decide to deviate from the standard speel.

[TOPC]

I just want to know why having the passengers informed of the cockpit escapes ,would make them want to run past the 2 front exits only to negotiate a locked reinforced steal door before struggling through a window whilst holding onto a piece of rope ?:D

[lame]

Now you mention the overhead hatch on some Aircraft.

IF we are mentioning other Aircraft, don't foget some have a trapdoor in the cockpit floor, down to the E+E bay, then the E+E door to outside, another way to exit some Aircraft, a way many Engineers routinely use. ;)

Not an option of course if you do a wheels up landing...... :uhoh:

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/cockpit.gif

[Animalclub]

From my scanning of this thread I cannot see where Kaptin M has said to tell passengers of the cockpit windows exit.

The Kaptin is being a little pedantic and asks those giving the PA announcments not to say that there are "ONLY" 6 emergency exits just that there are 6 exits for passengers egress - i.e. just present the facts. Similarly as you don't tell passengers how to get the life rafts out, but you do tell passengers that they are there for their use - just presenting the facts.

I am not/have not been a tech crew member or a full time hostie - mainly a passenger. And I don't know Kaptin M!

[Capt Claret]

In any evacuation, the cockpit crew are REQUIRED to assist - so that "dirty big bullet proof door" will NOT be closed.

but in the technologically superior BAe146, the only way for the tech crew to exit the flight deck when the hoards are busting to get out, is out the C screens.

Because that wizzard of modern British Engineering, the enhanced :yuk: :yuk: cockpit door must be opened into the galley through almost 180 degrees, to let the svelt types exit the flight deck. Pitty the poor F/A who gets slammed into the galley carts and squashed a la Sylvester the Puddy Tat. :\

[lame]

True. :D

However in defence of Kaptin M, that was not the point he was making. ;)

If the PA was thus "There may be 50 ways to leave your lover, but there are only 6 ways to leave this aircraft" , then it is incorrect, as he stated. :uhoh:

IF they said "There may be 50 ways to leave your lover, but in an emergency there are only 6 ways for you as passengers to leave this aircraft", that would be correct......... :ok:

[Bombay]

You know, when I used to have trouble sleeping, I used to read the telephone book, or get my wife to talk about communication and compromise in order to help me nod off.

Now all I have to do is read this thread. Trouble is, reading it also makes me look for a gun.

Bombay

[lame]

I thought this was one of the better threads......... :cool:

Here are some similar announcements, including the one that started this thread, however it must be a different type of Aircraft. ;)


Real flight announcements

Occasionally, airline attendants make an effort to make the "in-flight safety lecture" and their other announcements a bit more entertaining. Here are some real examples that have been heard or reported:

"There may be 50 ways to leave your lover, but there are only 4 ways out of this airplane..."

Pilot - "Folks, we have reached our cruising altitude now, so I am going to switch the seat belt sign off. Feel free to move about as you wish, but please stay inside the plane till we land ... it's a bit cold outside, and if you walk on the wings it affects the flight pattern."

And, after landing: "Thank you for flying Delta Business Express. We hope you enjoyed giving us the business as much as we enjoyed taking you for a ride."

As the plane landed and was coming to a stop at Washington National, a lone voice comes over the loudspeaker: "Whoa, big fella. WHOA!"

After a particularly rough landing during thunderstorms in Memphis, a flight attendant on a Northwest flight announced: "Please take care when opening the overhead compartments because, after a landing like that, sure as Hell everything has shifted."

From a Southwest Airlines employee.... "Welcome aboard Southwest Flight XXX to YYY. To operate your seatbelt, insert the metal tab into the buckle, and pull tight. It works just like every other seatbelt, and if you don't know how to operate one, you probably shouldn't be out in public unsupervised. In the event of a sudden loss of cabin pressure, oxygen masks will descend from the ceiling. Stop screaming, grab the mask, and pull it over your face. If you have a small child traveling with you, secure your mask before assisting with theirs. If you are traveling with two small children, decide now which one you love more.

Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive. Thank you, and remember, nobody loves you, or your money, more than Southwest Airlines."

"As you exit the plane, please make sure to gather all of your belongings. Anything left behind will be distributed evenly among the flight attendants. Please do not leave children or spouses."

"Last one off the plane must clean it."

And from the pilot during his welcome message: "We are pleased to have some of the best flight attendants in the industry ...Unfortunately none of them are on this flight...!

Heard on Southwest Airlines just after a very hard landing in Salt Lake City: The flight attendant came on the intercom and said, "That was quite a bump and I know what ya'll are thinking. I'm here to tell you it wasn't the airline's fault, it wasn't the pilot's fault, it wasn't the flight attendants' fault.....it was the asphalt!"

Another flight Attendant's comment on a less than perfect landing: "We ask you to please remain seated as Captain Kangaroo bounces us to the terminal."

After a real crusher of a landing in Phoenix, the Flight Attendant came on with, "Ladies and Gentlemen, please remain in your seats until Captain Crash and the Crew have brought the aircraft to a screeching halt up against the gate. And, once the tire smoke has cleared and the warning bells are silenced, we'll open the door and you can pick your way through the wreckage to the terminal.

Part of a Flight Attendant's arrival announcement: "We'd like to thank you folks for flying with us today. And, the next time you get the insane urge to go blasting through the skies in a pressurized metal tube, we hope you'll think of us here at US Airways."

:D

[proplever]

Just out of interest, Capt Marvey, if this is the second most anal thread in your opinion, which thread takes the prize as the MOST anal.

BTW, this thread is pretty anal.

[Argus]

Back on page two QF Cabin staff are, on average, a good 20 years older than their asian peers and have been doing the job a long time. They are sick and tired of it and view the pax is something less than important. They won't resign because the perks are too good and they can't be sacked/moved sideways because of Australia's labour laws.

I see some of the usual suspects are attempting to defend the indefensible on QF flight service.

I will not fly with QANTAS, especially on long haul routes.

It's not because of the flight deck crew (some of whom are my former colleagues) or engineering staff. It's because the standard of QF cabin service is way below what the competition offers.

I work for myself. I stand or fall on the quality of service I provide for my clients, most of whom are satisfied with what I do. When I'm paying top dollar for Business Class travel to/from Europe, I expect to receive in flight service that represents value for my hard earned money. Unfortunately, when compared to the likes of Cathy, Lauda (Austrian), JAL, Air Canada and even BA, QANTAS doesn't get to first base.

I don't expect forelock tugging servitude from cabin staff. But I do expect basic manners, a customer focussed approach to reasonable requests and flight attendant availability throughout the flight/sector. In my experience, QANTAS fails on all three counts. Rather than getting on with the job and maintaining the revenue flow, the Australian based cabin crew are more interested in preserving the Public Service attitude of "rights", "entitlements" and "hard won" employment conditions.

Qantas was ranked fourth in the 2004 Skytrax Airline of the Year survey. But the survey methodology goes to much more than cabin service.

Skytrax also surveys cabin service as a specific item. According to the Skytrax web site, the cabin service survey criteria are:

*Service Efficiency;
*Staff Cabin Presence;
*Service Attentiveness;
*Staff Friendliness;
*Consistency among Staff; and
*Sincerity and Attitude of Staff

The Skytrax 2004 survey results for cabin staff are due this month. However, in 2003, Qantas failed to make the Global Cabin Service Top 10 - see http://www.airlinequality.com/main/vote_staff_1-04.htm

Qantas (and some other large airlines) have 'risk averse' employees who are firmly focussed on entitlements. If that's your bag, fair enough - not all of us are destined to be Richard Bransons. But attempting to stifle enthusiasm, initiative and energy of the competition is just a little precious, especially when the product on offer from Qantas is so fatally flawed.

[lame]

How to use these emergency exits in the event of a terrorist being on board. ;)

http://www.ahajokes.com/cartoon/taliban13.jpg

[QFandlovinIT]

It is amazing how many tossers have NO IDEA of heavy jets ops all think they are experts.

[Wizofoz]

Qfandlovingit,

It’s amazing how many supposedly educated pilots can’t put together a comprehensible sentence in English!

(Have another go lad!)

[Razor]

The most annoying thing I see with these so called Crew Safety Professionals is how many of them need to do a resit of the door drills even after watching a video, being given a demo by the instructor, being in the job for a number of years and stressing out in the tea room prior about how hard it is.
Give me a break. It is not that hard and if you are like that in a controlled environment then how are you going to be when it gets tough.

[mainwheel]

LFS

Is VB the only carrier in aodaliya that takes advantage of the CAR requirement of number of safety exits that relates to "trained" person's numbers. No sexism allowed here.

Or is there really a career there, eventually becoming a FSD or Food manager or Head manager. :ok:

Is Jetstar (little taa) demanding the same dress standards whilst wearing uniforms from their career girls. G-Strings?

Now that would be more appropriate feedback on the original topic.;)

[Bombay]

Thanks Everybody for clearing up my query on page 4 of this thread.

Kaptin M is indeed THE MOST BORING PERSON ON EARTH.

Give that man a medal.

Bombay